Lord Liaden
Jul 21st, '11, 06:33 PM
Steven S. Long (07:58.07 PM)
Howdy folx!
Lord Liaden (07:58.30 PM)
Steve!
Steven S. Long (07:58.35 PM)
Hey, LL. :-)
Indiana Joe (07:58.50 PM)
Hey Steve
Steven S. Long (07:58.59 PM)
Hey, IJ ;-)
Jake Sweeper (07:59.03 PM)
*waves*
Steven S. Long (07:59.09 PM)
Hey Jake!
I hope everyone's managing to keep cool this evening. Thank heavens for AC! :-)
As usual we'll give it a few minutes before I start with announcements, just in case anyone comes in late.
Indiana Joe (08:00.12 PM)
My wife had me put one of ours in this morning, so the computer room is quite comfy. Rest of the house less so, but still nicer than outside.
Lord Liaden (08:01.24 PM)
I was thinking of going to a movie tonight, but didn't want to brave the heat between home AC and theater AC. :-(
Steven S. Long (08:02.11 PM)
Everyone looking forward to CAPTAIN AMERICA opening tomorrow?
Indiana Joe (08:02.45 PM)
I hadn't realized it was tomorrow, but I haven't been to a movie in a while.
Steven S. Long (08:03.02 PM)
Me either, but some friends want to go see it this weekend, so I'll tag along.
jkeown (08:03.13 PM)
I'm seeing at 11am tomorrow morning.
Narf the Mouse (08:03.34 PM)
Hey, Steve
Steven S. Long (08:03.43 PM)
OK, I think I've waited long enough... let's get to announcements!
Christougher (08:03.46 PM)
Arranging to go with some of the gaming group on saturday.
Steven S. Long (08:04.25 PM)
First, as y'all know it's con season, and we're making our final preparations for GenCon, which is coming up in just two weeks! Jason's been busy doing mock set-ups of our booths so we can figure out the best way to maximize the space we've got.
If any of y'all are attending you'll find us in booths 412-413.
And of course we'll be debuting STAR HERO at the show, so be sure to come on out and get your copy!
And of course there are plenty of HERO System games being run, and all sorts of other fun stuff going on.
Christougher (08:05.58 PM)
I think I'm in eight games.
Steven S. Long (08:06.10 PM)
Second, THE ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II is still working its way through layout. It's supposed to be in my hands no later than the day I get back from GenCon, so I'll get to work on it first thing after the show.
Assuming I don't get run over by a semi or anything like that on the way home. ;-)
Third, these days I'm staying busy working on THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS! This week I've been focusing on Chapter Four (the Multiverse), since I want to have that down pat as a foundation before I dive into the rest of the book.
Lord Liaden (08:07.24 PM)
Steve being run over is every Hero gamer's worst nightmare. But if it misses his hands, I guess it's not so bad. ;-)
jkeown (08:07.55 PM)
We can rebuild him... we have the technology.
Steven S. Long (08:07.57 PM)
I've edited and expanded the basic Multiverse description from TMW et al., and am now busy writing up example dimensions. Right now I'm in the middle of creating about a dozen or so alternate Earths, and then I'm going to do a like number of other types of dimensions.
So that's lots of fun; basically it's just coming up with fun ideas for game-able dimensions, writing up a few paragraphs, and moving on. No need to worry about character sheets or other such stuff. ;-)
Indiana Joe (08:09.00 PM)
We have the character points...
Steven S. Long (08:09.04 PM)
When all that's done I'll have to start on V'han's history, which won't be as much fun but is still an important part of the book.
Christougher (08:09.13 PM)
I presume the universe with evil heroes and nice villains is already in there?
jkeown (08:10.02 PM)
Foxbat IS the President...
Gregory (08:10.03 PM)
The Empress book could be an excellent tie-in to Mythic Hero! :-)
Steven S. Long (08:11.05 PM)
Yes, there's such a dimension, Christougher. It's Left-Handed Earth, which has been mentioned in TEEN CHAMPIONS and some other books.
Lord Liaden (08:11.05 PM)
Steve, couple of BOTE questions: one, how much of the book do you think will be directly related to I-V, and how much will be general multiversal stuff?
Steven S. Long (08:11.20 PM)
jkeown, in fact, one of the alternate Earths is Foxbatworld. ;-)
Lord Liaden (08:11.51 PM)
Two, will the dimensions you write up be all-new, or will some be expansions of previously-mentioned ones?
Steven S. Long (08:12.08 PM)
LL, nearly all of it will be directly related to Istvatha V'han or things connected to her. Only Chapter Four (the Multiverse) and parts of Chapter Six (dimension creation, random dimension tables, etc.) are more "generic."
Some of them are expansions of previously mentioned ones, some all-new. I'd say that it's a little better than 50-50 in favor of "all new," but that's just a guess.
Lord Liaden (08:13.32 PM)
Ah, random dimension tables! More dice-rolling fun. :-D
Steven S. Long (08:13.34 PM)
For example, one is Cahokian Earth, the alternate that the Cahokian comes from. That's been mentioned before, but never described.
OTOH, Foxbatworld is all-new, never even mentioned before. ;-)
Lord Liaden (08:14.36 PM)
Cahokian Earth intrigues me. I've always wondered how Native American cultures might have looked without being pushed out by Europeans.
While Foxbatworld is just plain scary. :-p
Steven S. Long (08:15.11 PM)
LL, there aren't any Native American cultures referred to. Just because there's an empire called Cahokia doesn't mean it's run by Indians. ;-)
Cahokia is a reference to the region, to make it sound unusual and strange.
"The Empire of Ohio" or "of the Great Lakes" just doesn't sound quite as cool. :-)
Lord Liaden (08:15.55 PM)
Huh. The Cahokian is clearly a red man, so I just assumed. My bad.
Steven S. Long (08:16.58 PM)
As much as I'd like to delve into something as strange as "Europeans didn't go to the New World," I don't really have the time to research such a serious change.
Jake Sweeper (08:17.05 PM)
So the mysterious event that caused the locals to go back hunting/gathering never happened?
Steven S. Long (08:17.26 PM)
I can handle things like Britworld and Popeworld, and hell even Laurentia for Pete's sake, but trying to figure out the "no Europeans" consequences would tax my little brain. :-)
Narf the Mouse (08:17.40 PM)
My guess is, post-apocalypse.
Indiana Joe (08:18.35 PM)
"Aztcs invade Europe" sounds interesting, though.
*Aztecs
Jake Sweeper (08:18.59 PM)
@Narf: it may have well been. No one is sure why the tribes in North America turned back to tribal ways, but are pretty sure it was bad
Steven S. Long (08:19.12 PM)
It might be interesting, but it's too much of a stretch. A civilization with no draft animals, no firearms, and no ships just isn't going to invade Europe in the 1500s. ;-)
Jake Sweeper (08:19.24 PM)
@Indiana Joe: I think Ken Hite did that one already
Steven S. Long (08:19.27 PM)
And I say that as a fan of the Aztecs. ;-)
Indiana Joe (08:19.56 PM)
Ok, apart from all that... :-)
Steven S. Long (08:20.29 PM)
But in fact, aside from all that, I want to avoid just "repeating" things that were in CHAMPIONS IN 3D twenty years ago, and it already has Aztec World.
Archie (08:20.33 PM)
I always had fun with Backworld and Nazi World from Champs 3D
Steven S. Long (08:20.39 PM)
You'll just have to settle for the equally fantastical Laurentia. :-)
Lord Liaden (08:22.02 PM)
Since we're talking Native Americans; Steve, did you find any good references for their folklore usable for Mythic Hero?
Archie (08:23.12 PM)
This Eurotalk makes me wonder, what if the natives of the Americas managed to fend off the European 'invasion' of the Americas and fought back.
Steven S. Long (08:23.26 PM)
LL, I have *lots* of good reference books on American Indian mythology. That's not the problem. The problem is finding enough of it that's sufficiently developed and coherent. I suspect I may just end up taking a few gods from a bunch of the more civilized or better known tribes (e.g., Iroquois, Haida, Cherokee), plus common ones like Coyote and Raven, and calling it a day.
Lord Liaden (08:24.10 PM)
Fair enough. I expected as much. :-)
Steven S. Long (08:24.16 PM)
Unfortunately none of the Indian tribes had their Ovid or Snorri Sturluson or Elias Lonnrot, so none of it's as well developed as the better-known European mythoi.
Still, it will be fun to dive into it and try to fish out some good, useful stuff!
I'm going to hurry on through BotE as fast as I can, since I want as much time to work on MYTHIC HERO as possible.
Steven Fry (08:26.02 PM)
Hi everyone. My first time on Hero Chat
Jake Sweeper (08:26.11 PM)
Heya
Lord Liaden (08:26.18 PM)
I notice the books in the printer logjam are slowly shaking loose. Any more reason for optimism on that front (that you can talk about)?
Steven S. Long (08:26.24 PM)
Hi Steven! Welcome to the terror-dome! ;-)
Steven Fry (08:26.40 PM)
Thanks Steve
Steven S. Long (08:26.41 PM)
LL, we'll get 'em out as we can get 'em out. That's about all I can say at present.
Lord Liaden (08:26.44 PM)
Welcome, Steven! Please give my best to Hugh Laurie. ;-)
Steven S. Long (08:26.58 PM)
Wrong spelling of Steven there, LL. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:27.08 PM)
Yes..he uses a ph
Archie (08:27.11 PM)
Hey, there, Fry.
Lord Liaden (08:27.32 PM)
Geez, the pun-police are out tonight. :-p
Steven Fry (08:28.03 PM)
LL-np. So, is this just a general chat?
Steven S. Long (08:28.22 PM)
Steven -- pretty much. I'm here to talk about what I'm working on, answer questions, that sorta thing.
Lord Liaden (08:29.05 PM)
It's like a preview of Steve's weekly update, plus whatever else we can pry out of him. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:29.10 PM)
I'll have to tell the other guys in my gaming group about this...
Steven S. Long (08:29.12 PM)
Pretty much. :-)
Steven Fry (08:29.17 PM)
I see
Lord Liaden (08:29.21 PM)
And anything else we find fun to talk about.
Narf the Mouse (08:30.01 PM)
F is for Fusion Fire which burns down the whole town, U is for Uranium bomb! N is for No survivors, down here in the deep blue sea.
Steven Fry (08:30.12 PM)
Well, this is exciting for me. I've been playing Champions since about 1982 & this is the first time I've chatted with folks not native to my area.
Steven S. Long (08:30.24 PM)
Glad you could join us. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:30.36 PM)
Thanks..I'm glad to be here
Archie (08:30.47 PM)
Yeah, we love supporting our community
Steven S. Long (08:30.53 PM)
That's one of the great things about the Internet; it brings people with specialized interests together in ways that weren't possible before unless you lived in a big city.
jkeown (08:30.53 PM)
82 is when I started as well...
Lord Liaden (08:30.54 PM)
Hey, I'm in Ontario, Canada. We're global, baby!
Steven Fry (08:31.15 PM)
Great! Memphis, TN here
Steven S. Long (08:31.25 PM)
I'm in North Carolina m'self. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:31.40 PM)
Been there...Raleigh Durham area
Lord Liaden (08:31.54 PM)
I started playing in '82 myself.
Archie (08:32.13 PM)
I'm a bit later, I started in '92 with the 4th edition
Indiana Joe (08:32.26 PM)
I think I started in '84, when Autoduel Champions came out and pulled me over from Car Wars.
Steven Fry (08:32.58 PM)
Steve Jackson's game! I have all the boxed sets & Autoduel too!
Lord Liaden (08:33.29 PM)
Those were the days. I miss all the cross-company publications from the hobby's early years.
Steven S. Long (08:33.33 PM)
Car Wars is all kinds of fun. I am hoping the World Of Tanks people eventually do a game with armed cars more or less just like Car Wars. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:33.53 PM)
LL Me too
So, Steve...I have a q about vehicle equipment
Steven S. Long (08:34.39 PM)
Sure, go right ahead.
Steven Fry (08:35.19 PM)
I know what intrinsic means...but our group is devisive on what is/is not intrinsic on a vehicle...open to anyone of course!
Steven S. Long (08:35.50 PM)
In what context did I use "intrinsic" that led to the question, Steven?
Archie (08:36.01 PM)
Someone refered to that on the forums before, but I hadn't had a chance to do the research.
Steven Fry (08:36.18 PM)
Lemme check the 5E rev
OK
Archie (08:37.24 PM)
I remember that vehicles had that extra -1/2 which was kinda like the Bulky modifier to a Focus
Steven S. Long (08:37.35 PM)
OK, I think I found it.
Steven Fry (08:37.36 PM)
page 469..equipment on a vehicle is bought with the Focus limitation unless it is considered intrinsically part of the vehicle
Steven S. Long (08:37.51 PM)
Yup, that's the sentence I found (though I am looking at 6E2 of course).
Steven Fry (08:38.19 PM)
ah...I don't have 6e. We're all 5e players.
Archie (08:38.32 PM)
I think it is the same though for both
Steven S. Long (08:39.03 PM)
I think the best way for you to define "intrinsic" is to look at published Vehicle character sheets and see what does and doesn't take the Focus Limitation. For example, movement generally isn't bought with Focus.
Most things are bought with Focus, though, since they can relatively easily be damaged or affected, either internally or externally.
Steven Fry (08:39.54 PM)
I thought that too...but they argue an FTL drive could be a focus
Like in Star Trek when they have to jettision the core...that's the example on player gave
Steven S. Long (08:40.59 PM)
Well, they can argue that all they want, but ultimately it's up to the GM. If the GM doesn't want to follow the examples in the book, that's absolutely within his power. But in terms of official interpretation of the rules, I don't think you'll find a single starship in any of our books that takes Focus on its FTL. (Though I'm sure now that I've said that someone will pull out an example.)
Steven Fry (08:41.27 PM)
LOL! Well, you didn't have to wait long did you?
Steven S. Long (08:41.29 PM)
You can't necessarily argue by analogy that way. What Star Trek does or does not do, or any other show or book, doesn't mean that's how you should interpret the rules.
Narf the Mouse (08:41.39 PM)
I think one question is, "Could I remove this and still have a vehicle"?
If you remove the engine, you arguably don't have a vehicle.
Steven Fry (08:42.47 PM)
Narf That's what I said too. The problem we run into is multiple GMs who need to agree otherwise characters which fit in one campaign don't slide easily into another when a different GM takes over
Steven S. Long (08:42.54 PM)
Or, it might be that the special rules for the Star Trek campaign say you *can* buy FTL Travel for Vehicles through a Focus... even though in other campaigns that wouldn't apply.
Steven -- if that's the case, either they need to agree on one person whose ruling you'll all accept regardless of personal opinion, or you need to find some other solution. There is no one "right answer" that will satisfy everyone in that situation.
Steven Fry (08:44.04 PM)
Hmm. I see
Archie (08:44.37 PM)
Well, think about this, the warp engines of a ship and the legs of a human are both targetable
Steven Fry (08:44.51 PM)
Archie..ok
Archie (08:44.51 PM)
but human legs aren't a focus
Steven Fry (08:44.56 PM)
true
Archie (08:45.30 PM)
Now, should the Warp Engines be more targetable than normal, that might be aq focus
Lord Liaden (08:45.34 PM)
Unless the "warp engines" of a given ship are completely internal, and can't be targeted from outside.
Archie (08:45.34 PM)
*a
Steven Fry (08:45.53 PM)
BTW, I don't wanna chew up everyone's time with this one q. I dunno what your rules are for chat
Archie (08:46.06 PM)
Yeah, LL, but that is based on the SFX of the FTL drive.
Hey, we live for this sort of debate
Steven S. Long (08:46.24 PM)
Steven -- no rules. ;-) People ask what they wanna ask. If someone else has a question they can ask me and I'll shift to that. Or work on both simultaneously. :-)
Lord Liaden (08:46.27 PM)
Get used to this, Steven. HEROphiles love to split rules hairs. :-D
Steven Fry (08:46.57 PM)
LL oh yeah, we've diced more than a few over the decades
Steven S. Long (08:47.35 PM)
Here's another way to think about it, sort of an expansion on Narf's point above. If you'd have to more or less dismantle the Vehicle to deprive it of the ability in question, then it's probably an "intrinsic" ability and shouldn't be bought as a Focus.
For example, suppose a ship's hull is built of antipsionium, a material that blocks mental powers. Thus, the Vehicle provides Mental Defense to anyone inside it. That shouldn't be bought through a Focus, since you'd have to take the whole ship apart to get rid of the ability.
Steven Fry (08:48.45 PM)
K
Steven S. Long (08:48.48 PM)
OTOH, if the Mental Defense were provided by a force-field that's generated by a device inside the ship, and the device could easily be tampered with or damaged in battle, then it would be a Focus.
Steven Fry (08:49.46 PM)
By the rules said Focus would receive its DEF as well as the ship's DEF for damage?
Steven S. Long (08:49.50 PM)
In the case of movement powers, while it's true that engines are sometimes damaged or messed with in genre fiction/shows/etc., without the ability to move a Vehicle really doesn't qualify as a Vehicle anymore. That seems pretty "intrinsic" to me, so in official Vehicle character sheets I never put Focus on movement powers.
Narf the Mouse (08:49.51 PM)
"Due to the fluxic nature of the harmonic inter-quark field, the antipsionic generator needs to be outside the hull." - Definite focus.
Steven S. Long (08:50.18 PM)
But reasonable minds may differ and YMMV. If you disagree, feel free to do otherwise. Just don't expect to get away with it if you pitch me a manuscript about vehicles. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:50.24 PM)
Steve..I noticed that when I looked at Star Hero vehicle write-ups.
Steven S. Long (08:50.50 PM)
I don't think "inside the hull" or "outside the hull" are necessarily determinative. The Vehicle Hit Location tables list lots of things that are internal to a ship.
(Or other vehicle.)
Certainly the location of a system is *a* consideration, but not the *only* consideration.
Archie (08:51.41 PM)
Starship writeup philosophies are rather varied, depending on the nature of the universe you are creating.
Steven S. Long (08:51.50 PM)
That's absolutely true, Archie.
Steven Fry (08:51.52 PM)
Vehicle hit location tables? Where are those?
Steven S. Long (08:52.08 PM)
Steven -- in The Ultimate Vehicle, and also in next year's HERO SYSTEM VEHICLES.
Lord Liaden (08:52.16 PM)
Uh-oh, did Steve just answer a Design Philosophy question? :-o
Steven Fry (08:52.22 PM)
The one book I don't have...ick
Steven S. Long (08:52.44 PM)
What works for Star Trek ships doesn't necessarily work for Star Wars ships, or B5 ships, or BSG ships, or Miles Vorkosigan ships, et cetera.
LL, I don't think I did. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:53.49 PM)
So Steve..why the big revamp on 6E?
Christougher (08:54.44 PM)
That's a game philosophy question he's not going to answer.
Steven S. Long (08:54.59 PM)
To put it in the briefest possible terms, (a) because I could improve the rules to the extent a new edition was viable (and in fact, desireable), and (b) to serve as the flagship of a revitalized HERO System line of fine gaming products.
Steven Fry (08:55.34 PM)
Have things been going badly for the Hero System up to 5E?
Steven S. Long (08:55.35 PM)
No, that's not a philosophy question per se, it's more of a marketing question in a sense. Design/philosophy questions usually involve a "why" about a specific rule, or some deep aspect of the system.
Steven -- no.
Lord Liaden (08:55.58 PM)
And of course, coincide with a hope-for influx of new buyers from Champions Online.
Steven Fry (08:56.00 PM)
Should have Had things..?
Steven S. Long (08:56.30 PM)
But there comes a time in any game line when you need to update and revitalize. I go into this in a little more detail in the intro to 6E. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:57.05 PM)
I've read some of it..one of the guys bought the 6E1
Eek! pretty quiet..
Steven S. Long (08:59.00 PM)
All righty folx, it looks like 10:00 has arrived, so it's time for me to skedaddle. See you next week, same Steve-time, same Steve-channel!
Howdy folx!
Lord Liaden (07:58.30 PM)
Steve!
Steven S. Long (07:58.35 PM)
Hey, LL. :-)
Indiana Joe (07:58.50 PM)
Hey Steve
Steven S. Long (07:58.59 PM)
Hey, IJ ;-)
Jake Sweeper (07:59.03 PM)
*waves*
Steven S. Long (07:59.09 PM)
Hey Jake!
I hope everyone's managing to keep cool this evening. Thank heavens for AC! :-)
As usual we'll give it a few minutes before I start with announcements, just in case anyone comes in late.
Indiana Joe (08:00.12 PM)
My wife had me put one of ours in this morning, so the computer room is quite comfy. Rest of the house less so, but still nicer than outside.
Lord Liaden (08:01.24 PM)
I was thinking of going to a movie tonight, but didn't want to brave the heat between home AC and theater AC. :-(
Steven S. Long (08:02.11 PM)
Everyone looking forward to CAPTAIN AMERICA opening tomorrow?
Indiana Joe (08:02.45 PM)
I hadn't realized it was tomorrow, but I haven't been to a movie in a while.
Steven S. Long (08:03.02 PM)
Me either, but some friends want to go see it this weekend, so I'll tag along.
jkeown (08:03.13 PM)
I'm seeing at 11am tomorrow morning.
Narf the Mouse (08:03.34 PM)
Hey, Steve
Steven S. Long (08:03.43 PM)
OK, I think I've waited long enough... let's get to announcements!
Christougher (08:03.46 PM)
Arranging to go with some of the gaming group on saturday.
Steven S. Long (08:04.25 PM)
First, as y'all know it's con season, and we're making our final preparations for GenCon, which is coming up in just two weeks! Jason's been busy doing mock set-ups of our booths so we can figure out the best way to maximize the space we've got.
If any of y'all are attending you'll find us in booths 412-413.
And of course we'll be debuting STAR HERO at the show, so be sure to come on out and get your copy!
And of course there are plenty of HERO System games being run, and all sorts of other fun stuff going on.
Christougher (08:05.58 PM)
I think I'm in eight games.
Steven S. Long (08:06.10 PM)
Second, THE ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II is still working its way through layout. It's supposed to be in my hands no later than the day I get back from GenCon, so I'll get to work on it first thing after the show.
Assuming I don't get run over by a semi or anything like that on the way home. ;-)
Third, these days I'm staying busy working on THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS! This week I've been focusing on Chapter Four (the Multiverse), since I want to have that down pat as a foundation before I dive into the rest of the book.
Lord Liaden (08:07.24 PM)
Steve being run over is every Hero gamer's worst nightmare. But if it misses his hands, I guess it's not so bad. ;-)
jkeown (08:07.55 PM)
We can rebuild him... we have the technology.
Steven S. Long (08:07.57 PM)
I've edited and expanded the basic Multiverse description from TMW et al., and am now busy writing up example dimensions. Right now I'm in the middle of creating about a dozen or so alternate Earths, and then I'm going to do a like number of other types of dimensions.
So that's lots of fun; basically it's just coming up with fun ideas for game-able dimensions, writing up a few paragraphs, and moving on. No need to worry about character sheets or other such stuff. ;-)
Indiana Joe (08:09.00 PM)
We have the character points...
Steven S. Long (08:09.04 PM)
When all that's done I'll have to start on V'han's history, which won't be as much fun but is still an important part of the book.
Christougher (08:09.13 PM)
I presume the universe with evil heroes and nice villains is already in there?
jkeown (08:10.02 PM)
Foxbat IS the President...
Gregory (08:10.03 PM)
The Empress book could be an excellent tie-in to Mythic Hero! :-)
Steven S. Long (08:11.05 PM)
Yes, there's such a dimension, Christougher. It's Left-Handed Earth, which has been mentioned in TEEN CHAMPIONS and some other books.
Lord Liaden (08:11.05 PM)
Steve, couple of BOTE questions: one, how much of the book do you think will be directly related to I-V, and how much will be general multiversal stuff?
Steven S. Long (08:11.20 PM)
jkeown, in fact, one of the alternate Earths is Foxbatworld. ;-)
Lord Liaden (08:11.51 PM)
Two, will the dimensions you write up be all-new, or will some be expansions of previously-mentioned ones?
Steven S. Long (08:12.08 PM)
LL, nearly all of it will be directly related to Istvatha V'han or things connected to her. Only Chapter Four (the Multiverse) and parts of Chapter Six (dimension creation, random dimension tables, etc.) are more "generic."
Some of them are expansions of previously mentioned ones, some all-new. I'd say that it's a little better than 50-50 in favor of "all new," but that's just a guess.
Lord Liaden (08:13.32 PM)
Ah, random dimension tables! More dice-rolling fun. :-D
Steven S. Long (08:13.34 PM)
For example, one is Cahokian Earth, the alternate that the Cahokian comes from. That's been mentioned before, but never described.
OTOH, Foxbatworld is all-new, never even mentioned before. ;-)
Lord Liaden (08:14.36 PM)
Cahokian Earth intrigues me. I've always wondered how Native American cultures might have looked without being pushed out by Europeans.
While Foxbatworld is just plain scary. :-p
Steven S. Long (08:15.11 PM)
LL, there aren't any Native American cultures referred to. Just because there's an empire called Cahokia doesn't mean it's run by Indians. ;-)
Cahokia is a reference to the region, to make it sound unusual and strange.
"The Empire of Ohio" or "of the Great Lakes" just doesn't sound quite as cool. :-)
Lord Liaden (08:15.55 PM)
Huh. The Cahokian is clearly a red man, so I just assumed. My bad.
Steven S. Long (08:16.58 PM)
As much as I'd like to delve into something as strange as "Europeans didn't go to the New World," I don't really have the time to research such a serious change.
Jake Sweeper (08:17.05 PM)
So the mysterious event that caused the locals to go back hunting/gathering never happened?
Steven S. Long (08:17.26 PM)
I can handle things like Britworld and Popeworld, and hell even Laurentia for Pete's sake, but trying to figure out the "no Europeans" consequences would tax my little brain. :-)
Narf the Mouse (08:17.40 PM)
My guess is, post-apocalypse.
Indiana Joe (08:18.35 PM)
"Aztcs invade Europe" sounds interesting, though.
*Aztecs
Jake Sweeper (08:18.59 PM)
@Narf: it may have well been. No one is sure why the tribes in North America turned back to tribal ways, but are pretty sure it was bad
Steven S. Long (08:19.12 PM)
It might be interesting, but it's too much of a stretch. A civilization with no draft animals, no firearms, and no ships just isn't going to invade Europe in the 1500s. ;-)
Jake Sweeper (08:19.24 PM)
@Indiana Joe: I think Ken Hite did that one already
Steven S. Long (08:19.27 PM)
And I say that as a fan of the Aztecs. ;-)
Indiana Joe (08:19.56 PM)
Ok, apart from all that... :-)
Steven S. Long (08:20.29 PM)
But in fact, aside from all that, I want to avoid just "repeating" things that were in CHAMPIONS IN 3D twenty years ago, and it already has Aztec World.
Archie (08:20.33 PM)
I always had fun with Backworld and Nazi World from Champs 3D
Steven S. Long (08:20.39 PM)
You'll just have to settle for the equally fantastical Laurentia. :-)
Lord Liaden (08:22.02 PM)
Since we're talking Native Americans; Steve, did you find any good references for their folklore usable for Mythic Hero?
Archie (08:23.12 PM)
This Eurotalk makes me wonder, what if the natives of the Americas managed to fend off the European 'invasion' of the Americas and fought back.
Steven S. Long (08:23.26 PM)
LL, I have *lots* of good reference books on American Indian mythology. That's not the problem. The problem is finding enough of it that's sufficiently developed and coherent. I suspect I may just end up taking a few gods from a bunch of the more civilized or better known tribes (e.g., Iroquois, Haida, Cherokee), plus common ones like Coyote and Raven, and calling it a day.
Lord Liaden (08:24.10 PM)
Fair enough. I expected as much. :-)
Steven S. Long (08:24.16 PM)
Unfortunately none of the Indian tribes had their Ovid or Snorri Sturluson or Elias Lonnrot, so none of it's as well developed as the better-known European mythoi.
Still, it will be fun to dive into it and try to fish out some good, useful stuff!
I'm going to hurry on through BotE as fast as I can, since I want as much time to work on MYTHIC HERO as possible.
Steven Fry (08:26.02 PM)
Hi everyone. My first time on Hero Chat
Jake Sweeper (08:26.11 PM)
Heya
Lord Liaden (08:26.18 PM)
I notice the books in the printer logjam are slowly shaking loose. Any more reason for optimism on that front (that you can talk about)?
Steven S. Long (08:26.24 PM)
Hi Steven! Welcome to the terror-dome! ;-)
Steven Fry (08:26.40 PM)
Thanks Steve
Steven S. Long (08:26.41 PM)
LL, we'll get 'em out as we can get 'em out. That's about all I can say at present.
Lord Liaden (08:26.44 PM)
Welcome, Steven! Please give my best to Hugh Laurie. ;-)
Steven S. Long (08:26.58 PM)
Wrong spelling of Steven there, LL. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:27.08 PM)
Yes..he uses a ph
Archie (08:27.11 PM)
Hey, there, Fry.
Lord Liaden (08:27.32 PM)
Geez, the pun-police are out tonight. :-p
Steven Fry (08:28.03 PM)
LL-np. So, is this just a general chat?
Steven S. Long (08:28.22 PM)
Steven -- pretty much. I'm here to talk about what I'm working on, answer questions, that sorta thing.
Lord Liaden (08:29.05 PM)
It's like a preview of Steve's weekly update, plus whatever else we can pry out of him. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:29.10 PM)
I'll have to tell the other guys in my gaming group about this...
Steven S. Long (08:29.12 PM)
Pretty much. :-)
Steven Fry (08:29.17 PM)
I see
Lord Liaden (08:29.21 PM)
And anything else we find fun to talk about.
Narf the Mouse (08:30.01 PM)
F is for Fusion Fire which burns down the whole town, U is for Uranium bomb! N is for No survivors, down here in the deep blue sea.
Steven Fry (08:30.12 PM)
Well, this is exciting for me. I've been playing Champions since about 1982 & this is the first time I've chatted with folks not native to my area.
Steven S. Long (08:30.24 PM)
Glad you could join us. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:30.36 PM)
Thanks..I'm glad to be here
Archie (08:30.47 PM)
Yeah, we love supporting our community
Steven S. Long (08:30.53 PM)
That's one of the great things about the Internet; it brings people with specialized interests together in ways that weren't possible before unless you lived in a big city.
jkeown (08:30.53 PM)
82 is when I started as well...
Lord Liaden (08:30.54 PM)
Hey, I'm in Ontario, Canada. We're global, baby!
Steven Fry (08:31.15 PM)
Great! Memphis, TN here
Steven S. Long (08:31.25 PM)
I'm in North Carolina m'self. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:31.40 PM)
Been there...Raleigh Durham area
Lord Liaden (08:31.54 PM)
I started playing in '82 myself.
Archie (08:32.13 PM)
I'm a bit later, I started in '92 with the 4th edition
Indiana Joe (08:32.26 PM)
I think I started in '84, when Autoduel Champions came out and pulled me over from Car Wars.
Steven Fry (08:32.58 PM)
Steve Jackson's game! I have all the boxed sets & Autoduel too!
Lord Liaden (08:33.29 PM)
Those were the days. I miss all the cross-company publications from the hobby's early years.
Steven S. Long (08:33.33 PM)
Car Wars is all kinds of fun. I am hoping the World Of Tanks people eventually do a game with armed cars more or less just like Car Wars. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:33.53 PM)
LL Me too
So, Steve...I have a q about vehicle equipment
Steven S. Long (08:34.39 PM)
Sure, go right ahead.
Steven Fry (08:35.19 PM)
I know what intrinsic means...but our group is devisive on what is/is not intrinsic on a vehicle...open to anyone of course!
Steven S. Long (08:35.50 PM)
In what context did I use "intrinsic" that led to the question, Steven?
Archie (08:36.01 PM)
Someone refered to that on the forums before, but I hadn't had a chance to do the research.
Steven Fry (08:36.18 PM)
Lemme check the 5E rev
OK
Archie (08:37.24 PM)
I remember that vehicles had that extra -1/2 which was kinda like the Bulky modifier to a Focus
Steven S. Long (08:37.35 PM)
OK, I think I found it.
Steven Fry (08:37.36 PM)
page 469..equipment on a vehicle is bought with the Focus limitation unless it is considered intrinsically part of the vehicle
Steven S. Long (08:37.51 PM)
Yup, that's the sentence I found (though I am looking at 6E2 of course).
Steven Fry (08:38.19 PM)
ah...I don't have 6e. We're all 5e players.
Archie (08:38.32 PM)
I think it is the same though for both
Steven S. Long (08:39.03 PM)
I think the best way for you to define "intrinsic" is to look at published Vehicle character sheets and see what does and doesn't take the Focus Limitation. For example, movement generally isn't bought with Focus.
Most things are bought with Focus, though, since they can relatively easily be damaged or affected, either internally or externally.
Steven Fry (08:39.54 PM)
I thought that too...but they argue an FTL drive could be a focus
Like in Star Trek when they have to jettision the core...that's the example on player gave
Steven S. Long (08:40.59 PM)
Well, they can argue that all they want, but ultimately it's up to the GM. If the GM doesn't want to follow the examples in the book, that's absolutely within his power. But in terms of official interpretation of the rules, I don't think you'll find a single starship in any of our books that takes Focus on its FTL. (Though I'm sure now that I've said that someone will pull out an example.)
Steven Fry (08:41.27 PM)
LOL! Well, you didn't have to wait long did you?
Steven S. Long (08:41.29 PM)
You can't necessarily argue by analogy that way. What Star Trek does or does not do, or any other show or book, doesn't mean that's how you should interpret the rules.
Narf the Mouse (08:41.39 PM)
I think one question is, "Could I remove this and still have a vehicle"?
If you remove the engine, you arguably don't have a vehicle.
Steven Fry (08:42.47 PM)
Narf That's what I said too. The problem we run into is multiple GMs who need to agree otherwise characters which fit in one campaign don't slide easily into another when a different GM takes over
Steven S. Long (08:42.54 PM)
Or, it might be that the special rules for the Star Trek campaign say you *can* buy FTL Travel for Vehicles through a Focus... even though in other campaigns that wouldn't apply.
Steven -- if that's the case, either they need to agree on one person whose ruling you'll all accept regardless of personal opinion, or you need to find some other solution. There is no one "right answer" that will satisfy everyone in that situation.
Steven Fry (08:44.04 PM)
Hmm. I see
Archie (08:44.37 PM)
Well, think about this, the warp engines of a ship and the legs of a human are both targetable
Steven Fry (08:44.51 PM)
Archie..ok
Archie (08:44.51 PM)
but human legs aren't a focus
Steven Fry (08:44.56 PM)
true
Archie (08:45.30 PM)
Now, should the Warp Engines be more targetable than normal, that might be aq focus
Lord Liaden (08:45.34 PM)
Unless the "warp engines" of a given ship are completely internal, and can't be targeted from outside.
Archie (08:45.34 PM)
*a
Steven Fry (08:45.53 PM)
BTW, I don't wanna chew up everyone's time with this one q. I dunno what your rules are for chat
Archie (08:46.06 PM)
Yeah, LL, but that is based on the SFX of the FTL drive.
Hey, we live for this sort of debate
Steven S. Long (08:46.24 PM)
Steven -- no rules. ;-) People ask what they wanna ask. If someone else has a question they can ask me and I'll shift to that. Or work on both simultaneously. :-)
Lord Liaden (08:46.27 PM)
Get used to this, Steven. HEROphiles love to split rules hairs. :-D
Steven Fry (08:46.57 PM)
LL oh yeah, we've diced more than a few over the decades
Steven S. Long (08:47.35 PM)
Here's another way to think about it, sort of an expansion on Narf's point above. If you'd have to more or less dismantle the Vehicle to deprive it of the ability in question, then it's probably an "intrinsic" ability and shouldn't be bought as a Focus.
For example, suppose a ship's hull is built of antipsionium, a material that blocks mental powers. Thus, the Vehicle provides Mental Defense to anyone inside it. That shouldn't be bought through a Focus, since you'd have to take the whole ship apart to get rid of the ability.
Steven Fry (08:48.45 PM)
K
Steven S. Long (08:48.48 PM)
OTOH, if the Mental Defense were provided by a force-field that's generated by a device inside the ship, and the device could easily be tampered with or damaged in battle, then it would be a Focus.
Steven Fry (08:49.46 PM)
By the rules said Focus would receive its DEF as well as the ship's DEF for damage?
Steven S. Long (08:49.50 PM)
In the case of movement powers, while it's true that engines are sometimes damaged or messed with in genre fiction/shows/etc., without the ability to move a Vehicle really doesn't qualify as a Vehicle anymore. That seems pretty "intrinsic" to me, so in official Vehicle character sheets I never put Focus on movement powers.
Narf the Mouse (08:49.51 PM)
"Due to the fluxic nature of the harmonic inter-quark field, the antipsionic generator needs to be outside the hull." - Definite focus.
Steven S. Long (08:50.18 PM)
But reasonable minds may differ and YMMV. If you disagree, feel free to do otherwise. Just don't expect to get away with it if you pitch me a manuscript about vehicles. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:50.24 PM)
Steve..I noticed that when I looked at Star Hero vehicle write-ups.
Steven S. Long (08:50.50 PM)
I don't think "inside the hull" or "outside the hull" are necessarily determinative. The Vehicle Hit Location tables list lots of things that are internal to a ship.
(Or other vehicle.)
Certainly the location of a system is *a* consideration, but not the *only* consideration.
Archie (08:51.41 PM)
Starship writeup philosophies are rather varied, depending on the nature of the universe you are creating.
Steven S. Long (08:51.50 PM)
That's absolutely true, Archie.
Steven Fry (08:51.52 PM)
Vehicle hit location tables? Where are those?
Steven S. Long (08:52.08 PM)
Steven -- in The Ultimate Vehicle, and also in next year's HERO SYSTEM VEHICLES.
Lord Liaden (08:52.16 PM)
Uh-oh, did Steve just answer a Design Philosophy question? :-o
Steven Fry (08:52.22 PM)
The one book I don't have...ick
Steven S. Long (08:52.44 PM)
What works for Star Trek ships doesn't necessarily work for Star Wars ships, or B5 ships, or BSG ships, or Miles Vorkosigan ships, et cetera.
LL, I don't think I did. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:53.49 PM)
So Steve..why the big revamp on 6E?
Christougher (08:54.44 PM)
That's a game philosophy question he's not going to answer.
Steven S. Long (08:54.59 PM)
To put it in the briefest possible terms, (a) because I could improve the rules to the extent a new edition was viable (and in fact, desireable), and (b) to serve as the flagship of a revitalized HERO System line of fine gaming products.
Steven Fry (08:55.34 PM)
Have things been going badly for the Hero System up to 5E?
Steven S. Long (08:55.35 PM)
No, that's not a philosophy question per se, it's more of a marketing question in a sense. Design/philosophy questions usually involve a "why" about a specific rule, or some deep aspect of the system.
Steven -- no.
Lord Liaden (08:55.58 PM)
And of course, coincide with a hope-for influx of new buyers from Champions Online.
Steven Fry (08:56.00 PM)
Should have Had things..?
Steven S. Long (08:56.30 PM)
But there comes a time in any game line when you need to update and revitalize. I go into this in a little more detail in the intro to 6E. ;-)
Steven Fry (08:57.05 PM)
I've read some of it..one of the guys bought the 6E1
Eek! pretty quiet..
Steven S. Long (08:59.00 PM)
All righty folx, it looks like 10:00 has arrived, so it's time for me to skedaddle. See you next week, same Steve-time, same Steve-channel!