VPP Opinions

[zornwil]

As the campaign has gone on, a couple characters now have gotten into VPPs. That's fine with me, both are justified in my book. For me, in the past, I never had more than one PC at a time with one (at least of any substance) so even though that campaign got high-powered it still was not much of an issue to think of. But as we grow and from general past history (as well as the efficiency of 1 of the 2 players in building powers frankly), I know the potential for issues in terms of:

- ensuring expectations from the GM and player match up about just how flexible VPPs can really be
- ensuring players don't always have the right power for every occassion; it's just not genre-correct
- ensuring the VPP is consistent and defined enough that it has weaknesses

I don't want to get into a discussion of whether they should or should not have them (though I will tell you the 2 players have VERY different gigs, one is a shape-shifter and the other is a mage), and I don't want to get into a discussion about specific players and VPPs. I'm more interested in what works overall for everyone who has had more than one PC with a VPP (or just a PC with a very big VPP, sort of the same thing) and reasonably high-powered characters.

EDIT - just wanted to add, rhe rest just describes my OWN take on VPPs and how I'm house-ruling to enforce that. You don't need to read it to respond, so you can just respond now if you don't feel like reading a lot, as this goes on a bit.

My current house rules on VPPs (not currently on my site but will be there shortly) include the following

- require that they have some sort of weakness (something an agency or government could overcome but not a regular person or smaller group of people - implying the need for high tech or esoteric approaches).

- changing powers must have some "evolutionary" basis - you can't change straight from fire to ice (for example); if you do, it really goes fire to a fiery/icy mix (and if someone's SFX counters one, it'll halve it for instance) and then to an icy mix. Basically, this ensures that SFX don't vary too "conveniently".

- for VPPs which are very easy to change in combat (GM discretion as to what qualifies for that), limitations generally count for 1/2 value if they do limit the power but are not based on the control cost innately making all powers have the limitation - basically this relates of course to the fact that limitations on powers in VPPs are very easy to shift for convenience

- because of the ability to stack a way lot on defenses or offenses, if the VPP is switched around DURING combat between these categories the power gets a little Side Effect or Vulnerability (bigger if the change is more dramatic) at GM discretion; this aberration "X" PC phases, where x = the number of real points shifted divided by 10 (e.g., if you shift 60 EB to 60 Damage Reduction, the aberration would last 6 phases)

- any NND attacks or similarly powerful SFX-based powers created in a VPP must have a weakness or side effect or similar based on the characteristics of the VPP or PC. For example, if a mage makes an NND attack of cold frostbitten weather (defense = wearing cold weather gear or being heated) in addition to the normal NND weakness there might be "Side Effect: Makes Main Character x1.5 Vulnerable to Heat Attacks" as his body cools down to withstand casting the spell and any attack of heat on him creates more system shock.

Fortunately the players are pretty mature so it's not that I'm expecting them to deliberately abuse the construct - I'm more concerned that they and I be on the same page, so I created the above rules to give a better idea to the players how I view VPPs working (as well as part of the exercise of me thinking more about it). Well, also I did aim for some specific changes/refinements in VPPs to enforce their internal consistency. I don't think VPPs should allow for all sorts of superimposed SFX ("sure, but being a mage I can cast any sort of thing, it's not going to manifest as magic as the magic is only what creates the thing, right?) so I encoded much of that into formal house rules.

I'm not suggesting that the core rules should do this. I'm just flavoring to MY taste.

Anyway - what sorts of things do you guys do, among those who've experienced significant high-powered VPP play?

[OddHat]

My VPP house rules don't tend to be quite as restrictive, and vary from campaign to campaign. That said, I ran a "Hidden Magic" campaign using 4th ed that was very VPP heavy, and I found the following house rules to be useful:

1) Spells must be researched. Want to design new spells? Buy appropriate science skills (SS: Type of Magic) and Inventor. Otherwise you're restricted to a set group of spells taught to you by your mentor.

2) If you have a Cosmic VPP and absolutely must come up with a new spell right now instead of submitting it in writing before play begins, it must take a flat 11 or less activation roll, 0 DCV concentration and a full phase of Extra Time. This still doesn't lift the "must be researched" limit. It just means that you're figuring it out on the spur of the moment. Later research will lift those limits.

3) Genre and Special Effects limits strictly enforced. A Voodoo Bokur does not shapeshift (except in the Dreamlands) or throw lightning (except in the Dreamlands). A Spirit Warrior of Shango doesn't read minds. I allowed a -1/4 limit for this, but I didn't allow any VPPs for PCs without that -1/4.

4) No building the same power twice with different limits, unless Variable Limitation is part of the power. If your "Shango's Fist of Lightning" requires your Amulet of Shango, you can't swap it out for Increased End cost.

5) Variable special effects requires point expenditure. You can build as many different Prawna Blasts as you like (AOE:1 Hex / AP / NND / Whatever). If you want a Fire Blast and an Ice Blast, you either have to research and write them up separately or pay for the VSE advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

For PCs with open-ended VPPs (mages and some cosmic characters), I start by having them write down a list of their most commonly used Powers with game mechanic writeups, and giving me a copy of it so that we can both refer to it. The list can be as long as the player wants - it's just handy to speed up the process of deciding what Powers to use. However, I enforce a one minute time limit for the process of changing Powers: if they can't decide what Power(s) to change their Pool to within one minute of real-world time, they forfeit their action for that Phase.

If a player wants to create a new Power for his VPP, he can do so automatically by researching/practicing in between his character's adventures (and add it to his list). If he wants to do that during a game session, though, he'll have to make a Skill Roll for an applicable Knowledge, Science or Professional Skill. I assign Modifiers to the roll for conditions and time taken, and allow Complementary Skills. Once the character has made his roll successfully, he can use that Power freely in any subsequent Phase and add it to his list.

One Limitation from past published Hero books that I've found useful is "Known Powers Only" (-1/4 to the Control Cost). That limits the VPP to only the Powers that the player has written up and listed in advance, although his character can add to the list between adventures as usual. The list can still be as long as the player wants, but I require that the player not refer to it during the game; if he forgets that he has a particular Power in his VPP, so does his character. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
However, I enforce a one minute time limit for the process of changing Powers: if they can't decide what Power(s) to change their Pool to within one minute of real-world time, they forfeit their action for that Phase.

To me, this is pretty generous (ie a pretty lengthy period). Taken to the extreme, this 5 speed character adds 5 minutes to every turn of combat.

I expect players to pretty much have their actoions figured out when their phase rolls around (remembering that their phase is roughly 2-3 seconds long). Waiting a minute for someone to decide what they're going to do in combat is excessive. A few seconds, sure.

If the character wants to design a new power on the fly, it had best be simple enough (or a slight enough variant from an existing power) that he can do so without slowing the game. If he can't, I guess he's delayed his phase while figuring out how to effect this new variant on his powers.


Originally posted by Lord Liaden
The list can still be as long as the player wants, but I require that the player not refer to it during the game; if he forgets that he has a particular Power in his VPP, so does his character. ;)

I have no problem with the player referring to such a list during the game - it speeds up the proces dramatically. If, on the other hand, he's spending considerable time reading it when he should be making his action, I guess he's just overwhelmed with all the possibilities, and has delayed his phase.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
To me, this is pretty generous (ie a pretty lengthy period). Taken to the extreme, this 5 speed character adds 5 minutes to every turn of combat.

I expect players to pretty much have their actoions figured out when their phase rolls around (remembering that their phase is roughly 2-3 seconds long). Waiting a minute for someone to decide what they're going to do in combat is excessive. A few seconds, sure.

If the character wants to design a new power on the fly, it had best be simple enough (or a slight enough variant from an existing power) that he can do so without slowing the game. If he can't, I guess he's delayed his phase while figuring out how to effect this new variant on his powers.

I agree with all of the above. That length of time to decide is a rare occurence in my games, and I would talk with a player who was doing it often outside of game time to try to correct the situation. My rule is just for those occasional moments of true indecision - after all, losing a Phase is a rather stiff penalty to a player during combat and the like.


Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
I have no problem with the player referring to such a list during the game - it speeds up the proces dramatically. If, on the other hand, he's spending considerable time reading it when he should be making his action, I guess he's just overwhelmed with all the possibilities, and has delayed his phase.

I don't have a problem with list consultation either - as I mentioned, it simplifies things greatly. If the player wants to take "Known Powers Only" as a Limitation on his VPP, though, I just ban list consultation as a way to make the Lim count, since I don't restrict the number of Powers he can have in it otherwise. Certainly YMMV. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I agree with all of the above. That length of time to decide is a rare occurence in my games, and I would talk with a player who was doing it often outside of game time to try to correct the situation. My rule is just for those occasional moments of true indecision - after all, losing a Phase is a rather stiff penalty to a player during combat and the like.

I'd enforce a delayed phase rather than a lost phase, but your point remains valid. And it likely wouldn't be enforced until it has become a problem (just as you would enforce more harshly if something became a problem), si we're probably pretty close here.


Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I don't have a problem with list consultation either - as I mentioned, it simplifies things greatly. If the player wants to take "Known Powers Only" as a Limitation on his VPP, though, I just ban list consultation as a way to make the Lim count, since I don't restrict the number of Powers he can have in it otherwise. Certainly YMMV. :)

I hadn't considered this in the context of the limitation. I might consider allowing it anyway on the basis it prevents having "the right power for every occasion", but I could see requiring a buyoff if the list provided the "anything and everything" VPP.

I generally prefer a -1/4 (or higher as appropriate) limitation for identification of those things the specific VPP cannot do. I think it's critical to have the parameters of the VPP defined up front so both player and GM know what can be expected. If the player is looking for a true "cosmic do anything" pool, fine - he's paying some pretty hefty points for the privilege, and as long as he doesn't bog the game down with indecision, it should not become a problem. That said, I've never seen anyone who was prepared to pay 2.5x the pool cost for a large cosmic VPP, and experience could crtainly change my mind.

[Gary]

If VPPs are being abused, one suggestion would be that easily changed VPPs substitutes instead of adds to existing abilities. For example, a character with 20 str and a 50 pt vpp would have to put 21 pts from the vpp before it becomes useful. Putting his entire vpp into str would result in a 50 str, not 70. Similarly, a character with 15" flight would only get 25" flight if the entire pool was in flight, not 40".

This cheap "aid" is one of the most abusive things about standard vpps. If he wants aid, he should buy it through the pool.

Another thing is to require a vpp to pay additional costs if they have flexibility. For example, if the player only has 1 special effect for an EB in his vpp, he can get it as usual. If he has the ability to use fire, ice, lightning, etc, then all his EBs must have the variable advantage on them. Similarly, if he could use the vpp to transfrom targets to anything, he must pay for a +1 advantage. If he can summon one specific type of summon, it's normal. If he can summon anything, he has to take a +1 advantage on any summons built through the pool.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
Another thing is to require a vpp to pay additional costs if they have flexibility. For example, if the player only has 1 special effect for an EB in his vpp, he can get it as usual. If he has the ability to use fire, ice, lightning, etc, then all his EBs must have the variable advantage on them. Similarly, if he could use the vpp to transfrom targets to anything, he must pay for a +1 advantage. If he can summon one specific type of summon, it's normal. If he can summon anything, he has to take a +1 advantage on any summons built through the pool.

Wow, you don't like VPP's much do you (Gary and I disagree on a power framework issue...there's a new one ? :rolleyes: )

I guess that +1 advantage for summoning/transforming will offset the -1 limitation for a pool that can only be used for summon/transform quite nicely. :(

Only Fire Powers is a -1/2 limitation, but we'll make it even more expensive not to restrict the VPP by requiring "variable special effect" if he wants more than one special effect. :confused:

Now, I would definitely restrict any character taking that -1/4 "magic only" limitation to have Magic as his only special effect - that's why he got a limitation in the first place. But an "unlimited" VPP should not be limited in terms of SFX - that's one of the specific limiting factors which can be applied to VPP's.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Wow, you don't like VPP's much do you (Gary and I disagree on a power framework issue...there's a new one ? :rolleyes: )

I guess that +1 advantage for summoning/transforming will offset the -1 limitation for a pool that can only be used for summon/transform quite nicely. :(

Only Fire Powers is a -1/2 limitation, but we'll make it even more expensive not to restrict the VPP by requiring "variable special effect" if he wants more than one special effect. :confused:

Now, I would definitely restrict any character taking that -1/4 "magic only" limitation to have Magic as his only special effect - that's why he got a limitation in the first place. But an "unlimited" VPP should not be limited in terms of SFX - that's one of the specific limiting factors which can be applied to VPP's.

Summon any 250 pt creature. 50 base points with +1 advantage for 100 total points

50 pt VPP

Control cost Cosmic (+2) only for summons (-1) 37 pts.

87 pts total. Hmm, what is wrong with this picture. :rolleyes:

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
Summon any 250 pt creature. 50 base points with +1 advantage for 100 total points

50 pt VPP

Control cost Cosmic (+2) only for summons (-1) 37 pts.

87 pts total. Hmm, what is wrong with this picture. :rolleyes:

Clearly the +1 advantage must be overpriced.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary
Summon any 250 pt creature. 50 base points with +1 advantage for 100 total points

50 pt VPP

Control cost Cosmic (+2) only for summons (-1) 37 pts.

87 pts total. Hmm, what is wrong with this picture. :rolleyes:

What is wrong with this picture is that you have completely neglected to take limitations on the power into account. The VPP guy pays 87 points for all summons, regardless of how many lims he puts on them; all the lims do is let him have more summon powers in his pool at once. OTOH, if all I want is to be able to summon any one 250-pt. creature, I can put as many lims as I like on the standard power and get it much more cheaply. Or, I can put it in a Multipower(!) and get it for at most 10 points (in an ultra slot) and STILL pile on the limitations.

Don't compare apples and tractors.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by OddHat
My VPP house rules don't tend to be quite as restrictive, and vary from campaign to campaign. That said, I ran a "Hidden Magic" campaign using 4th ed that was very VPP heavy, and I found the following house rules to be useful:

1) Spells must be researched. Want to design new spells? Buy appropriate science skills (SS: Type of Magic) and Inventor. Otherwise you're restricted to a set group of spells taught to you by your mentor.

2) If you have a Cosmic VPP and absolutely must come up with a new spell right now instead of submitting it in writing before play begins, it must take a flat 11 or less activation roll, 0 DCV concentration and a full phase of Extra Time. This still doesn't lift the "must be researched" limit. It just means that you're figuring it out on the spur of the moment. Later research will lift those limits.

3) Genre and Special Effects limits strictly enforced. A Voodoo Bokur does not shapeshift (except in the Dreamlands) or throw lightning (except in the Dreamlands). A Spirit Warrior of Shango doesn't read minds. I allowed a -1/4 limit for this, but I didn't allow any VPPs for PCs without that -1/4.

4) No building the same power twice with different limits, unless Variable Limitation is part of the power. If your "Shango's Fist of Lightning" requires your Amulet of Shango, you can't swap it out for Increased End cost.

5) Variable special effects requires point expenditure. You can build as many different Prawna Blasts as you like (AOE:1 Hex / AP / NND / Whatever). If you want a Fire Blast and an Ice Blast, you either have to research and write them up separately or pay for the VSE advantage.

Great suggestions. Actually these seem more restrictive to me than my own, :p I will "bank" these along with others - I just had to comment that you seemed more restrictive - but it's all to taste, this is not a criticism. I do really like your method.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
I'd enforce a delayed phase rather than a lost phase, but your point remains valid. And it likely wouldn't be enforced until it has become a problem (just as you would enforce more harshly if something became a problem), si we're probably pretty close here.



I hadn't considered this in the context of the limitation. I might consider allowing it anyway on the basis it prevents having "the right power for every occasion", but I could see requiring a buyoff if the list provided the "anything and everything" VPP.

I generally prefer a -1/4 (or higher as appropriate) limitation for identification of those things the specific VPP cannot do. I think it's critical to have the parameters of the VPP defined up front so both player and GM know what can be expected. If the player is looking for a true "cosmic do anything" pool, fine - he's paying some pretty hefty points for the privilege, and as long as he doesn't bog the game down with indecision, it should not become a problem. That said, I've never seen anyone who was prepared to pay 2.5x the pool cost for a large cosmic VPP, and experience could crtainly change my mind.

My only problem with this thread (not just your message Hugh) of delays and taking time in combat penalizing a PC is that the PC may have a vast INT (and with a VPP is way more likely to) whereas the humble player of course doesn't. I don't disagree with the spirit at all of what you're saying - the game needs to keep moving and it is equally problematic to have the play overthought - just pointing out something that should be accounted for.

However, again, I appreciate these contributions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil
My only problem with this thread (not just your message Hugh) of delays and taking time in combat penalizing a PC is that the PC may have a vast INT (and with a VPP is way more likely to) whereas the humble player of course doesn't. I don't disagree with the spirit at all of what you're saying - the game needs to keep moving and it is equally problematic to have the play overthought - just pointing out something that should be accounted for.

To my mind, they already receive much of this advantage (so does everyone else though) in that 12 seconds of chaotic combat are laid out neatly on the map for them to take in at their leisure and decide their next move.

Players are also generally allowed input from other players, where their characters would lack that luxury.

One option is to take the Tactics skill for tactical geniuses, and allow them added leeway as a result.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by zornwil
Great suggestions. Actually these seem more restrictive to me than my own, :p I will "bank" these along with others - I just had to comment that you seemed more restrictive - but it's all to taste, this is not a criticism. I do really like your method.

Restrictive is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

I like your system as well. Here was my take on it:

1) Requires a weakness. Fair dinkum: I see this as true of every character. Even Kiniku the Muscle Man can be pumped full of sedatives designed to work with his bio-chem.

2) Evolutionary changes. Here you are less restrictive. Your point. ;)

3) Reduced value for limits. I prefer a pre-defined group of permitted limits at full value, especially as that lets the same lists be used by Multipower Mages and VPP mages of the same type. If I did go the reduced value route, I'd prefer to give some kind of break on the control cost. On the other hand, I give full value for limits but don't allow them to be varied once the power is defined.

4 & 5) Required Side Effects. Unless this is part of how magic always works in your campaign, I see this as restrictive. The VPP Ice Mage shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage compared to the Multipower Ice Mage. The VPP mage has already paid more points. If he at least gets points back for the side effects (say a -1/4 limit to the control cost, or the side effects reduce the cost of the power) then I'd feel less uncomfortable with it. I do something similar (required limits by magic type) but the mage gets the value of those limits, and the Multipower Mages of the same type are playing by the same rules.

That said, I do see the logic behind this.

I'll be interested in seeing the house rules you settle on. :)

[zornwil]

Originally posted by OddHat
Restrictive is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

I like your system as well. Here was my take on it:

1) Requires a weakness. Fair dinkum: I see this as true of every character. Even Kiniku the Muscle Man can be pumped full of sedatives designed to work with his bio-chem.

2) Evolutionary changes. Here you are less restrictive. Your point. ;)

3) Reduced value for limits. I prefer a pre-defined group of permitted limits at full value, especially as that lets the same lists be used by Multipower Mages and VPP mages of the same type. If I did go the reduced value route, I'd prefer to give some kind of break on the control cost. On the other hand, I give full value for limits but don't allow them to be varied once the power is defined.

4 & 5) Required Side Effects. Unless this is part of how magic always works in your campaign, I see this as restrictive. The VPP Ice Mage shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage compared to the Multipower Ice Mage. The VPP mage has already paid more points. If he at least gets points back for the side effects (say a -1/4 limit to the control cost, or the side effects reduce the cost of the power) then I'd feel less uncomfortable with it. I do something similar (required limits by magic type) but the mage gets the value of those limits, and the Multipower Mages of the same type are playing by the same rules.

That said, I do see the logic behind this.

I'll be interested in seeing the house rules you settle on. :)

SO FAR, I'm STARTING with the ones I posted BUT I'm pretty aware I may need some "plan B" options and that also there are certainly people out there with good contributions. I really liked your list a lot, and am considering if I want to do some shifting now so stay tuned.

In particular, I really liked your usage of Variable Advantages, very very well-thought out and logical. I'm thinking of adding that in, along with what follows below, as part of dropping the "evolutionary" requirement.

Regarding #2, I think it's too tough in terms of the actual specific restrictions (to me, in a superhero game - as opposed to fantasy - coming up with different manifestations on the spot is half the idea of a VPP), but I like the spirit of it quite a bit. I could see me doing it more like 14/less, half phase, -2 or similar DCV, and throwing out my "evolutionary" method, just adjusting the 14/less roll up or down according to how bizarre or sensible a chagne it is. I realize that's way more generous than yours, but still pretty beefy in its own right. I'd use your method in a fantasy game though.

These combined could also replace my side effect/vulnerability issue, given how they handle the change with a built-in side effect (failure).

Now I have a question for you - regarding your penalty for coming up with a "new power" on the spot how do you handle small changes, the same? Let's say I have an Energy Blast and I want to change it to AoE while ratcheting down my Force Field? Most players would say that their character shouldn't have much trouble with that, especially if they've otherwise created AoE effects. Just say "too bad, use Variable Advantage" - which means they'd have to pay +1.5? Or do you adjust the 11/less roll?

Also, how do you regulate adding powers? So many between adventure?

Actually I'm really giving it some thought. As I stated in my response, I banked your solution and have been looking at it.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
To my mind, they already receive much of this advantage (so does everyone else though) in that 12 seconds of chaotic combat are laid out neatly on the map for them to take in at their leisure and decide their next move.

Players are also generally allowed input from other players, where their characters would lack that luxury.

One option is to take the Tactics skill for tactical geniuses, and allow them added leeway as a result.

I see the logic of what you're saying, even if it's not how I see it. I feel that even though it's at their "leisure", the very last action someone took before them they often have to take into account when their turn comes. Also, even if the map is well-laid out and well-described, it's way different from being there, so there's often questions and speculations.

Also, you just can't compare a human of INT 12 or 15, let's say, with no combat experience even with a few minutes to a superhuman with INT 20 with lots of combat experience. IMHO.

I'm not sure that "their characters would lack the luxury", most often teams tend to have a communication method built-in and the genre sometimes (but not always) supports amazingly coordinated (and not pre-combat-meditated) actions.

Also, you should be aware of something key - I enforce that all actions in a segment are simultaneous. The only exceptions are heroic and defensive actions, and even those require a DEX roll - sometimes (but rarely) it's DEX-vs-DEX (the villain teleported out, "no, I grab him" - okay, DEX vs DEX). This makes a big difference in that even a villain who is hit almost always gets his attack off (and vice-versa of course).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Clearly the +1 advantage must be overpriced.

I'd rather not have the cosmic vpp step on the toes of someone who actually pays the +1 advantage for summon or transform or change environment, or pays the +1/4 advantage for adjustment powers or for variable special effects. He gets a much more effective power for fewer points.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F
What is wrong with this picture is that you have completely neglected to take limitations on the power into account. The VPP guy pays 87 points for all summons, regardless of how many lims he puts on them; all the lims do is let him have more summon powers in his pool at once. OTOH, if all I want is to be able to summon any one 250-pt. creature, I can put as many lims as I like on the standard power and get it much more cheaply. Or, I can put it in a Multipower(!) and get it for at most 10 points (in an ultra slot) and STILL pile on the limitations.

Don't compare apples and tractors.

It's a pretty shaky comparison when you have to invoke limitations. The base cosmic vpp is much more effective than the base summon. And it costs 13 pts less.

The person with base summons spends 10 end per shot, and can summon 1 being of 250 pts. To spend the same end and get a closer comparison, it costs him 112 pts.

The vpp spends 5 end per pop. He can summon 1 250, 2 225, 4 200, or 1024 0 pt beings. He can also summon devoted followers of either less points or fewer numbers. Or summon that nice police detective that you've just met (specific being). In general have much more flexibility for 25 less points. Heck, he could spend 100 pts and have cosmic vpp attacks only, or 110 pts and have cosmic vpp magic only. Then he can summon, transform, change environment, and attack with any combination he wants.

The 10 pt multipower option is assuming you already have a 100 pt multipower. Or 112 if you want to match the end cost. Not something you can always count on.

You may be able to get away with piling on limitations on summon, but putting them on transform, change environment, adjustment powers, or energy blast is much tougher without hurting yourself.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by zornwil
Now I have a question for you - regarding your penalty for coming up with a "new power" on the spot how do you handle small changes, the same? Let's say I have an Energy Blast and I want to change it to AoE while ratcheting down my Force Field? Most players would say that their character shouldn't have much trouble with that, especially if they've otherwise created AoE effects. Just say "too bad, use Variable Advantage" - which means they'd have to pay +1.5? Or do you adjust the 11/less roll?

I run a campaign with fairly detailed magic, and I tend to use VPPs to represent that, so my approach might not be what works best in a true four color game. :)

That said, if a spirit warrior of Shango already knew how to throw a fire blast and wanted to switch to an explosive fire blast, the default would be:

A) Make his SS: Ritual Magic and Inventor (Spell Craft) Rolls, concentrating for a full phase to do so. The next phase he could throw his explosive fire blast using his RSR: Ritual Magic skill at -1 per 5 active points or at 11 or less if his pool doesn't work off of a required skill roll. He could then write down the spell after the game session and remove the extra limits.

In a more four color game, or for dramatic purposes, I'd mostly follow your suggestion:

B) Make the SS: Ritual Magic and Inventor rolls (he still needs to figure out how to do this), concentrating at 0 DCV for 1/2 phase to do so, then cast using his normal RSR, or at 14 or less if he doesn't have an RSR.

I do want to give the VPP player value for the extra points he sunk into the power, but I also want to encourage pre-made spell / effect lists so that I can plan accordingly. Thematically I want spell / effect research and design to mean something for both VPP artists and Multipower users.


Originally posted by zornwil Also, how do you regulate adding powers? So many between adventure?

Here I'm not that strict. If you figured out how to use it in play (as above), write it down with whatever limits you want and you can use it in the next session. Other than that research takes a base of the spell's active point cost/5 in days, a SS roll, and an Inventor (Spellcraft) roll. This can be moved down the time chart by 1 step per -3 to the inventor roll. This means that it's actually a bit faster to "field test" a new spell than it is to develop one in the safety of your library.

In practice I'll usually let a player add as many spells as he likes between adventures, so long as they fit the restrictions and special effects of his pool and I have time to look them over before the game. We just assume that most of the spell research was on-going, or that the spells had already been developed by other mages of the same type.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
It's a pretty shaky comparison when you have to invoke limitations. The base cosmic vpp is much more effective than the base summon. And it costs 13 pts less.

The person with base summons spends 10 end per shot, and can summon 1 being of 250 pts. To spend the same end and get a closer comparison, it costs him 112 pts.
You may be able to get away with piling on limitations on summon, but putting them on transform, change environment, adjustment powers, or energy blast is much tougher without hurting yourself.

Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
The vpp spends 5 end per pop. He can summon 1 250, 2 225, 4 200, or 1024 0 pt beings. He can also summon devoted followers of either less points or fewer numbers. Or summon that nice police detective that you've just met (specific being). In general have much more flexibility for 25 less points. Heck, he could spend 100 pts and have cosmic vpp attacks only, or 110 pts and have cosmic vpp magic only. Then he can summon, transform, change environment, and attack with any combination he wants.

The 10 pt multipower option is assuming you already have a 100 pt multipower. Or 112 if you want to match the end cost. Not something you can always count on.

A VPP is just a variant multipower when you cut through it. A Multipower is a cosmic VPP with only certain slots, which you have to pay a bit extra each time you add one.

Limitations are, as Zed-F has pointed out, much more effective on a multipower than on a VPP. Let's look at that "Attacks only" 50 point VPP (with a 50 point aggregate control cost for 100 points, your example). He can have any attack he wants at the 50 point level. A multipower could "only" have 10 Ultra slots.

Let's add OAF. All his powers come from guns. The VPP costs 75 points, and he can have two powers at the same time. The multipower can have a 100 point reserve and cost 75 (again, two powers at the same time, but again only 10 ultra slots available).

But Our Heroes have a problem. 10d6 just isn't cutting it. MultipowerMan can spend 10 Xp and have a 20d6 EB in his multipower. VPPMan must spend another 75 points! He has a lot more versatility once he gets there, of course, but it takes a lot longer to achieve the goal.

Looked at another way, maybe every Super should have a VPP. They always seem to be finding new and innovative ways to use their powers in the comics, and they seem to go well beyond simply applying the Power skill. They must all have VPP's! [And we should apply the "no referring to your list of VPP powers in play" rule since they seem to forget some of those applications on a pretty common basis too!]

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
A VPP is just a variant multipower when you cut through it. A Multipower is a cosmic VPP with only certain slots, which you have to pay a bit extra each time you add one.

Limitations are, as Zed-F has pointed out, much more effective on a multipower than on a VPP. Let's look at that "Attacks only" 50 point VPP (with a 50 point aggregate control cost for 100 points, your example). He can have any attack he wants at the 50 point level. A multipower could "only" have 10 Ultra slots.

Let's add OAF. All his powers come from guns. The VPP costs 75 points, and he can have two powers at the same time. The multipower can have a 100 point reserve and cost 75 (again, two powers at the same time, but again only 10 ultra slots available).

But Our Heroes have a problem. 10d6 just isn't cutting it. MultipowerMan can spend 10 Xp and have a 20d6 EB in his multipower. VPPMan must spend another 75 points! He has a lot more versatility once he gets there, of course, but it takes a lot longer to achieve the goal.

Looked at another way, maybe every Super should have a VPP. They always seem to be finding new and innovative ways to use their powers in the comics, and they seem to go well beyond simply applying the Power skill. They must all have VPP's! [And we should apply the "no referring to your list of VPP powers in play" rule since they seem to forget some of those applications on a pretty common basis too!]

Warning, math errors again. If you have a 100 pt multipower with 10 slots, it costs 200 base points and 100 with OAF. Not 75. You need the full 100 pts to be able to summon anything, or transform to anything, or change environment anything, or to place variable special effects advantage on your attacks. And you're assuming that a 100 pt multipower will be allowed in the first place.

And if you apply OAF to so many points, you're really putting yourself in danger. The trouble with taking hefty limitations, is that they are limitations. They make your powers less useful.

I can make a claim that my powers that only work in water (-1.5) or X10 end cost (-4) are more powerful than your OAF powers. It's true, but those powers are less useful.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

I'm inclined to not grant any limitation unless it affects them that round such as an activation roll.

I find the example of Takofanes to be totally bogus. He has a 10d6 RKA vs living only, and a 10d6 RKA vs dead only. Hardly limiting for a cosmic vpp.

[Zed-F]

You said:


Another thing is to require a vpp to pay additional costs if they have flexibility. For example, if the player only has 1 special effect for an EB in his vpp, he can get it as usual. If he has the ability to use fire, ice, lightning, etc, then all his EBs must have the variable advantage on them. Similarly, if he could use the vpp to transfrom targets to anything, he must pay for a +1 advantage. If he can summon one specific type of summon, it's normal. If he can summon anything, he has to take a +1 advantage on any summons built through the pool.


and


Originally posted by Gary
It's a pretty shaky comparison when you have to invoke limitations.

The vpp spends 5 end per pop. He can summon 1 250, 2 225, 4 200, or 1024 0 pt beings. He can also summon devoted followers of either less points or fewer numbers. Or summon that nice police detective that you've just met (specific being). In general have much more flexibility for 25 less points. Heck, he could spend 100 pts and have cosmic vpp attacks only, or 110 pts and have cosmic vpp magic only. Then he can summon, transform, change environment, and attack with any combination he wants.

The 10 pt multipower option is assuming you already have a 100 pt multipower. Or 112 if you want to match the end cost. Not something you can always count on.

Why would I want to do that, however? Of course, I could, but what would be the point? Do I really need to be able to summon *anything* with 250 points of effect? Or do I really want to be able to summon a number of specific things at that level?

A 50 AP summon-only VPP costs 87 points (per your numbers) and allows any one summoning power up to 50 AP. All well and good. I could as easily buy a 50 AP Multipower and 3 50 AP summon slots for 65 points. That should let me cover off most summoning needs I have, or if not I can always add another slot or two for 5 points each. If I get tired of summoning, I can add more slots to do other stuff. After all, how many creatures do I really want to design and submit for GM approval? I can even summon *anything*, with the +1 advantage, in a single slot, for 5 points, so long as the total effect is 50 AP or less.

Your solution, Gary, would be to *require* VPP guy to have that +1 advantage. That will absolutely not suit. In that case, VPP guy would be limited to having exactly the same effect as that last single MP slot, without any of the other slots, and pay substantially *more* for it. No way would I play that character in your game if you were to enforce that kind of a restriction.

It gets worse when we tack on limitations. Suppose we add an OAF Staff to both cases. Now we have a 50 AP VPP that costs 70 CP, and can have 2 summons present in the pool at once, compared with a multipower that costs 25 CP plus 2 CP per power. I can buy an *awful* lot of summons at 2 CP a pop plus a bunch more non-summon powers before I get anywhere near 70 CP, plus be able to swap between them as a 0 phase action with no skill roll required (which would be a +2 advantage on the VPP, increasing its cost to 110 CP). The fact that I can only summon one thing at a time with the multipower is pretty much irrelevant because summons stick around after they are summoned, and how many things is the GM going to allow me to summon at once anyway? Besides, if it's really an issue, it's not that difficult to buy up that reserve to 100 points for another 25 CP and still cost substantially less than the VPP.

VPPs are fine the way they are. You do NOT need to add a +1 modifier to be able to change its slots to anything; the whole raison d'etre for a VPP is *because* you can change its slots to anything. I wouldn't object too strenuously if the GM wanted to impose a variable SFX for +1/4, but anything beyond that would destroy the inherent value of a VPP.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

For the record, depends...

- if the limitation is on the whole VPP and applies to every power (i.e., to be clear, no power can be invoked without having to obey the lim), yes

- although, as you saw, I will have (and have always had) some change restrictions, the "cosmic" version where you can change things but I still require a "migration" if you will (or similar penalty), I am allowing lims at half value IF they are real lims (e.g., focus if, when the focus is lost, they can't reclaim those powers back)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F
You said:


and



Why would I want to do that, however? Of course, I could, but what would be the point? Do I really need to be able to summon *anything* with 250 points of effect? Or do I really want to be able to summon a number of specific things at that level?

A 50 AP summon-only VPP costs 87 points (per your numbers) and allows any one summoning power up to 50 AP. All well and good. I could as easily buy a 50 AP Multipower and 3 50 AP summon slots for 65 points. That should let me cover off most summoning needs I have, or if not I can always add another slot or two for 5 points each. If I get tired of summoning, I can add more slots to do other stuff. After all, how many creatures do I really want to design and submit for GM approval? I can even summon *anything*, with the +1 advantage, in a single slot, for 5 points, so long as the total effect is 50 AP or less.

Your solution, Gary, would be to *require* VPP guy to have that +1 advantage. That will absolutely not suit. In that case, VPP guy would be limited to having exactly the same effect as that last single MP slot, without any of the other slots, and pay substantially *more* for it. No way would I play that character in your game if you were to enforce that kind of a restriction.

I would require that advantage if it were part of a larger vpp such as magic only, and if the vpp can be easily changed in combat. If the person bought summon only as his vpp, I probably wouldn't enforce the restriction.


Originally posted by Zed-F

It gets worse when we tack on limitations. Suppose we add an OAF Staff to both cases. Now we have a 50 AP VPP that costs 70 CP, and can have 2 summons present in the pool at once, compared with a multipower that costs 25 CP plus 2 CP per power. I can buy an *awful* lot of summons at 2 CP a pop plus a bunch more non-summon powers before I get anywhere near 70 CP, plus be able to swap between them as a 0 phase action with no skill roll required (which would be a +2 advantage on the VPP, increasing its cost to 110 CP). The fact that I can only summon one thing at a time with the multipower is pretty much irrelevant because summons stick around after they are summoned, and how many things is the GM going to allow me to summon at once anyway? Besides, if it's really an issue, it's not that difficult to buy up that reserve to 100 points for another 25 CP and still cost substantially less than the VPP.

What you seem to be arguing is that the +1 advantage is so expensive that nobody would ever want one. And you have to pull limitations in to make your comparison because at the straight level, your arguments hold no water. And if you have limitations, they will be used against you. That OAF staff means that a decent amount of the time, you won't have the power.

Incidentally, I already factored in the +2 advantage with my costs.

vpp cosmic (+2) summon/transform only (-1) 87 pts
vpp cosmic (+2) attacks only (-1/2) 100 pts
vpp cosmic (+2) magic only (-1/4) 110 pts.


Originally posted by Zed-F

VPPs are fine the way they are. You do NOT need to add a +1 modifier to be able to change its slots to anything; the whole raison d'etre for a VPP is *because* you can change its slots to anything. I wouldn't object too strenuously if the GM wanted to impose a variable SFX for +1/4, but anything beyond that would destroy the inherent value of a VPP.

How about for a transform or change environment where you want to have multiple options available in combat? How many slots in a multipower do you need to do all the things you want to do? A 50 pt multipower would only be allowed to have 7-8 slots before it spends as many pts as a vpp summon/change environment/transform only. And the only way to do better is to stick limitations on it which weakens your power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
Warning, math errors again. If you have a 100 pt multipower with 10 slots, it costs 200 base points and 100 with OAF. Not 75. You need the full 100 pts to be able to summon anything, or transform to anything, or change environment anything, or to place variable special effects advantage on your attacks. And you're assuming that a 100 pt multipower will be allowed in the first place.

That assumes your slots are all full power. In the example above, the character has a 100 point pool and 10 slots esch of 50 AP (5 points each). Total cost = 100 + 50 = 150 /2 = 75. This probably wasn't clear enough.


Originally posted by Gary
And if you apply OAF to so many points, you're really putting yourself in danger. The trouble with taking hefty limitations, is that they are limitations. They make your powers less useful.

No question. However, we are comparing a VPP with an OAF and a multipower with an OAF, so the examples are each at equal risk.

Gary, does anyone ever take a limitation in your campaigns? Given the damage you feel they would do, I am surprised a -1/4 limitation for "drain one drain all" is acceptable to you. A -1/2 saves 1/3 (and you feel based on your OIF comments should mean the power is unavailable 1/3 of the time), but -1/4 saves 1/5, so logically the power should be totally drained 1/5 of the time to make the limitation fair from a points saved perspective.

Actually, it should be drained 1/5 of the time PLUS however much time it would be drained without the limitation. Maybe it should be partially drained about half the time. Seems like a lot of negative adjutsment powers to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil
- if the limitation is on the whole VPP and applies to every power (i.e., to be clear, no power can be invoked without having to obey the lim), yes

My point was directed at limits on powers, not on the pool. I agree if it must be on every power, it's a real limit. They could also, say, put Variable Limit on the pool and have the same apply to every power.


Originally posted by zornwil
- although, as you saw, I will have (and have always had) some change restrictions, the "cosmic" version where you can change things but I still require a "migration" if you will (or similar penalty), I am allowing lims at half value IF they are real lims (e.g., focus if, when the focus is lost, they can't reclaim those powers back)

Here, I agree because the power pool is not, in my mind, "cosmic" - it cannot be changed instantaneously, so there is a limit from limitations. Whether I would discount the cost for this change restriction (a form of extra time to change) I don't know - he's not getting the full Cosmic benefit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
[BHow about for a transform or change environment where you want to have multiple options available in combat? How many slots in a multipower do you need to do all the things you want to do? A 50 pt multipower would only be allowed to have 7-8 slots before it spends as many pts as a vpp summon/change environment/transform only. And the only way to do better is to stick limitations on it which weakens your power. [/B]

Yes, there is a point at which the additional flexibility is cheaper through a VPP than a Multipower. Given you don't value additional flexibility much when discussing EC's vs Multipowers, how did it suddenl;y become so much more valuable here?

A "normal" cosmic VPP costs 125. That's only 15 slots in the Multipower, and I can think of WAY more than 15 useful 50 point powers. Plus, the Multipower can only ever have one slot active, where the VPP can mix and match smaller powers. If limitations were allowed, it could even have more than 1 50 point power up at a time, but I don't like Limitations on Cosmic VPP's as they go away when they become inconvenient. [Hmmm...maybe activation, side effect or increased END as they have some real effects; could be some others.] Seems to me that "change environment only" is already pretty limitong as compared to the unlimited cosmic pool.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary
What you seem to be arguing is that the +1 advantage is so expensive that nobody would ever want one. And you have to pull limitations in to make your comparison because at the straight level, your arguments hold no water.

As I mentioned elsewhere, if you want a multipower without a common restriction across all slots & the reserve, you are probably trying to use the wrong power framework, or at least not taking full advantage of the strengths a Multipower provides. Multipowers are, IMHO, constructed specifically for use with a common limitation; that is one of a Multipower's strengths. A VPP is best suited for no common limitations at all on the powers in the pool, though I will often limit individual slots to taste. An EC is in-between the two in terms of desirability of common limitations across the framework.

The fact that a VPP seems better in comparison to a MP when there are no limitations in play does not mean my arguments "hold no water." :rolleyes: What, do characters never take limitations in your games? How dull! If that's the case, you're missing out on a lot of great roleplaying opportunites -- after all, if a player has built his character sensibly so that they still have useful abilities even when deprived of their foci or otherwise under the influence of their limitations, a decent GM will ensure that the character has an opportunity to contribute. This is both in genre and only sensible from a point of view of keeping the player involved in the game. Having limitations is not a catastrophe; far from it! I should have thought it would be obvious you have to compare both with and without limitations in order to get a full picture. Apparently not. :D

Even so, I don't agree that a 50 point MPP with no limitations, where I can buy ANYTHING IN CONCEPT for 5 points, is inherently worse than a 87 point cosmic VPP, wherein the only thing I can do is summon, or transform, or change environment. A summon, transform, or change environment will not answer in many situations, and if the player is using the summon or transform to mimic the effects of other powers (e.g. transforming nothingness into body armour, or summoning something that acts as a personal shield for the summoner) then the GM should be talking to the character about removing the -1 limitation on the control cost. In that case we would be comparing a 50 point cosmic VPP with NO limitation on the control cost (125 points), versus a 50 point multipower and 5 points per slot.


And if you have limitations, they will be used against you. That OAF staff means that a decent amount of the time, you won't have the power.
Well duh. The same applies for a VPP guy who takes OAF Staff on the control cost of the pool. That's neither here nor there, it applies across the board.


How about for a transform or change environment where you want to have multiple options available in combat? How many slots in a multipower do you need to do all the things you want to do? A 50 pt multipower would only be allowed to have 7-8 slots before it spends as many pts as a vpp summon/change environment/transform only. And the only way to do better is to stick limitations on it which weakens your power. [/B]
If *all* you want is to be able to transform stuff, great, go ahead and spend 87 points on it. Considering that the GM is going to enforce that -1 limitation to prevent you from overstepping the boundaries of what you can reasonably be expected to acheive with transform, i.e. no making body armour & blasters on a regular basis, or carting them around with you once you have them, I don't think it's unbalanced even if you can change it every phase for a 0-phase action. The 50-point multipower even without limitations can provide defense, movement, and other utility powers in addition to transforms.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Zed-F
A VPP is best suited for no common limitations at all on the powers in the pool, though I will often limit individual slots to taste.

A VPP with limits can also work nicely. The limited multipower costs less points, and the VPP with limited powers can do more things at the same time.

But the three frameworks each have their own strengths and weaknesses, as you say. Pick the one that best suits the objectove and run with it. Against one another, they're pretty balanced.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

I do, if the limitation is meaningful. My standard limits on VPPs are posted elsewhere in this thread.

If John Firestaff has a fire blast that requires his Staff of Flaming OAF he gets the full -1; he also has no other fire blast in his aresenal, and very likely no other energy blast at all, though that's something I'd discuss with the player. If John takes a -1/2 variable limit on his Fire Blast, he can pick from a list of meaningful -1 limits. If he has 23 separate energy blasts, I probably wouldn't allow much in the way of limits on any of them, unless the same limits applied to all.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
A VPP with limits can also work nicely. The limited multipower costs less points, and the VPP with limited powers can do more things at the same time.

But the three frameworks each have their own strengths and weaknesses, as you say. Pick the one that best suits the objectove and run with it. Against one another, they're pretty balanced.

I should qualify -- I will sometimes consider a small limitation on the control cost. The problem is you hit diminishing returns much more quickly with these since you cannot reduce the reserve cost, so I would typically put on the minimum limitation that is consonant with the conception. If I'm paying a whack for the reserve anyway, I'm not going to skimp too much on the control cost; the decrease in flexibility is generally not worth the small return in points. With a multipower, the converse is true; a significant limitation on the whole power nets you a LOT of points, so it's definitely worth it.

I would probably never build a summoning only VPP. The -1 on the control cost is not worth the severe restriction in the kinds of powers available. It's easy enough to expand that up to a -1/2 limitation which might get you a reasonable selection of base powers to work from. Even on the 50-point cosmic power pool example that only costs an extra 13 points, which is not a big deal when you're paying 87 points to start with.

I'm also not a huge fan of cosmic power pools, but I don't play in high-enough-powered games to justify them; if I were playing in a 600-plus-point game I might be more tempted. I would likely be more willing to consider larger limitations on a cosmic pool since the point savings is correspondingly larger. However, a regular VPP with a control roll to take a phase or otherwise take a turn to change a power is sufficient for most of my characters, who mainly use VPPs to support their main powers rather than as a main power. If I take a look at OddHat's character Style, which has a cosmic VPP as his main power on a 350-point character, he had to include a number of uncontrolled powers in his VPP in order to get his defenses & movement abilities up to a reasonable level. While some of those kinds of powers may be useful or even necessary in order to be able to be reasonably effective in combat when the character hasn't got much in the way of offense or defense outside his VPP, as in Style's case, there is a limit to how much a GM will let a player get away with that sort of thing.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Zed-F
I'm also not a huge fan of cosmic power pools, but I don't play in high-enough-powered games to justify them; if I were playing in a 600-plus-point game I might be more tempted. I would likely be more willing to consider larger limitations on a cosmic pool since the point savings is correspondingly larger. However, a regular VPP with a control roll to take a phase or otherwise take a turn to change a power is sufficient for most of my characters, who mainly use VPPs to support their main powers rather than as a main power. If I take a look at OddHat's character Style, which has a cosmic VPP as his main power on a 350-point character, he had to include a number of uncontrolled powers in his VPP in order to get his defenses & movement abilities up to a reasonable level. While some of those kinds of powers may be useful or even necessary in order to be able to be reasonably effective in combat when the character hasn't got much in the way of offense or defense outside his VPP, as in Style's case, there is a limit to how much a GM will let a player get away with that sort of thing.

In Style's case I ended up reconfiguring his spells a bit (based on feedback from you and Hugh) and puting most of his defenses outside of the pool, most noteably Power Defense, Mental Defense, Luck, Combat Luck, and Regeneration with the resurection option.

The rules set favors the Offensive Framework + Defensive Framework configuration for flexible characters; that said, it is possible to build a fairly combat effective 350 point VPP only character. He'll still never be as effective in combat as the multiple framework build, but character concept counts for quite a lot in most campaigns.

[Farkling]

And that's why I still dislike multiple frameworks...

GM recieves character sheet

"Hmmm....here's the attack framework....here's the defense framework"

turns sheet over
"and here's the micellaneous powers and the skills. It matches up quite nicely with the other four characters, although I see you used two Multipowers...noboidy else did that."


Bah.
Hey Hugh...no wonder Gary wouldn't consider a VPP for his oft quoted Batman...that +1 control cost advantage would make even the 1/4, 1/2 EC limitations he proposed cheaper. I wonder if that's why there's so much concern over getting rid of the free points in the EC.

The VPP doesn't have any free points...but is infiniely more flexible...but repeated argurments here AND in the EC thread leads me to believe that flexibility doesn't count for much in Gary's universe.

Each can play his own way I guess.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling
Hey Hugh...no wonder Gary wouldn't consider a VPP for his oft quoted Batman...that +1 control cost advantage would make even the 1/4, 1/2 EC limitations he proposed cheaper. I wonder if that's why there's so much concern over getting rid of the free points in the EC.

The VPP doesn't have any free points...but is infiniely more flexible...but repeated argurments here AND in the EC thread leads me to believe that flexibility doesn't count for much in Gary's universe.

Each can play his own way I guess.

Well, flexibility for choice of powers counts for little. But you can't have any limitations, so flexibility for use of powers is imperative.

Given Gary sees a need to further limit VPP's, considers characteristics underpriced and thinks EC's are overly generous, perhaps he should instead look at making Multipowers cheaper - they seem the "odd framework out" in his world view.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
That assumes your slots are all full power. In the example above, the character has a 100 point pool and 10 slots esch of 50 AP (5 points each). Total cost = 100 + 50 = 150 /2 = 75. This probably wasn't clear enough.



No question. However, we are comparing a VPP with an OAF and a multipower with an OAF, so the examples are each at equal risk.

Gary, does anyone ever take a limitation in your campaigns? Given the damage you feel they would do, I am surprised a -1/4 limitation for "drain one drain all" is acceptable to you. A -1/2 saves 1/3 (and you feel based on your OIF comments should mean the power is unavailable 1/3 of the time), but -1/4 saves 1/5, so logically the power should be totally drained 1/5 of the time to make the limitation fair from a points saved perspective.

Actually, it should be drained 1/5 of the time PLUS however much time it would be drained without the limitation. Maybe it should be partially drained about half the time. Seems like a lot of negative adjutsment powers to me.

Almost nobody takes greater than -1/2 limitations on their main attack or defensive powers.

Do large numbers of people in your world take -1 or greater limitations on their main attack or defensive powers?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling
The VPP doesn't have any free points...but is infiniely more flexible...but repeated argurments here AND in the EC thread leads me to believe that flexibility doesn't count for much in Gary's universe.

Each can play his own way I guess.

Flexibility counts for a lot, just like in any world. However, with a multipower, you're paying for that flexibility. Each additional bit of flexibility costs you more points. Points that you're not spending to increase dex/spd or more powerful attacks.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Yes, there is a point at which the additional flexibility is cheaper through a VPP than a Multipower. Given you don't value additional flexibility much when discussing EC's vs Multipowers, how did it suddenl;y become so much more valuable here?

It becomes more valuable because for transforms, change environments, and summons, it normally costs a +1 advantage to have total flexibility. For most attack powers, it normally costs a +1/2 advantage to be able to have total flexibility in variable special effects. I don't like the fact that someone could buy a more useful power cheaper through vpps.

I'm not penalizing all vpps. I'm only penalizing vpps that:

1) Are easy to change in combat.

2) Have a "large" selection of powers.

It's fairly devastating to be always be able to pull out the right attacks at the right time. To be able to use the fire EB vs the cold character, the water EB vs the fire character, or the wind EB vs the gaseous character. Hero values this flexibility at +1/2. Therefore if your easily changed vpp could fire only one type of EB, you can use full dice. If it can fire a narrow range of EBs, you pay a +1/4. If it can fire any EB, it should pay a +1/2.


Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A "normal" cosmic VPP costs 125. That's only 15 slots in the Multipower, and I can think of WAY more than 15 useful 50 point powers. Plus, the Multipower can only ever have one slot active, where the VPP can mix and match smaller powers. If limitations were allowed, it could even have more than 1 50 point power up at a time, but I don't like Limitations on Cosmic VPP's as they go away when they become inconvenient. [Hmmm...maybe activation, side effect or increased END as they have some real effects; could be some others.] Seems to me that "change environment only" is already pretty limitong as compared to the unlimited cosmic pool.

If the vpp is change environment only, I wouldn't have any problems with it. If it's any magic special effect, then the restrictions would apply.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Flexibility counts for a lot, just like in any world. However, with a multipower, you're paying for that flexibility. Each additional bit of flexibility costs you more points. Points that you're not spending to increase dex/spd or more powerful attacks. And you're paying a fraction of the full cost. One would think this would bother you.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F
As I mentioned elsewhere, if you want a multipower without a common restriction across all slots & the reserve, you are probably trying to use the wrong power framework, or at least not taking full advantage of the strengths a Multipower provides. Multipowers are, IMHO, constructed specifically for use with a common limitation; that is one of a Multipower's strengths. A VPP is best suited for no common limitations at all on the powers in the pool, though I will often limit individual slots to taste. An EC is in-between the two in terms of desirability of common limitations across the framework.

The fact that a VPP seems better in comparison to a MP when there are no limitations in play does not mean my arguments "hold no water." :rolleyes: What, do characters never take limitations in your games? How dull! If that's the case, you're missing out on a lot of great roleplaying opportunites -- after all, if a player has built his character sensibly so that they still have useful abilities even when deprived of their foci or otherwise under the influence of their limitations, a decent GM will ensure that the character has an opportunity to contribute. This is both in genre and only sensible from a point of view of keeping the player involved in the game. Having limitations is not a catastrophe; far from it! I should have thought it would be obvious you have to compare both with and without limitations in order to get a full picture. Apparently not. :D

How many characters in your world actually take -1 or greater in limitations on their main attacks or defenses?


Originally posted by Zed-F

Even so, I don't agree that a 50 point MPP with no limitations, where I can buy ANYTHING IN CONCEPT for 5 points, is inherently worse than a 87 point cosmic VPP, wherein the only thing I can do is summon, or transform, or change environment. A summon, transform, or change environment will not answer in many situations, and if the player is using the summon or transform to mimic the effects of other powers (e.g. transforming nothingness into body armour, or summoning something that acts as a personal shield for the summoner) then the GM should be talking to the character about removing the -1 limitation on the control cost. In that case we would be comparing a 50 point cosmic VPP with NO limitation on the control cost (125 points), versus a 50 point multipower and 5 points per slot.

Is there any reason in your world to ever take the +1 advantage on summon, change environment, or transform? Or to buy the +1/2 variable special effect advantage?



Originally posted by Zed-F

Well duh. The same applies for a VPP guy who takes OAF Staff on the control cost of the pool. That's neither here nor there, it applies across the board.

Which is why almost nobody ever takes OAF staff on a cosmic VPP in superheroic campaigns. And almost no PCs, at least in my world, take it on their big attack multipower. PCs sometimes have guns or bows, but they either OIF it, or have a decent backup attack.


Originally posted by Zed-F

If *all* you want is to be able to transform stuff, great, go ahead and spend 87 points on it. Considering that the GM is going to enforce that -1 limitation to prevent you from overstepping the boundaries of what you can reasonably be expected to acheive with transform, i.e. no making body armour & blasters on a regular basis, or carting them around with you once you have them, I don't think it's unbalanced even if you can change it every phase for a 0-phase action. The 50-point multipower even without limitations can provide defense, movement, and other utility powers in addition to transforms.

How about comparing it to the 100 pt attacks only version or 110 pt magic only version?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
And you're paying a fraction of the full cost. One would think this would bother you.

And you're getting a fraction of the full usefulness.

[Zed-F]

How many characters in your world actually take -1 or greater in limitations on their main attacks or defenses? It depends on the conception. Typical range is between -1/2 and -1 for most focus-based characters. Certainly most weaponmasters will have an OAF weapon. They will also have martial arts so they are not helpless when they get disarmed. Often they will have several different foci with different sets of powers associated. A powered armour character -- usually -1/2 for most characters, but could be more depending on the conception. A battlesuit would not likely be an OAF, but could be an OIF with additional restrictions, such as an additional "drain one drain all" on a particular SFX, or "uncommon restrainable" limitation. Even so, my powered armour characters will usually have some combat abilites not purchased on the armour, e.g. martial arts or a gadget pool. Similar for a focus-based mystic -- usually the focus will be OIF, but it could have some additional limitations on it depending on conception.

For non-focus characters, it's often harder to come up with a large limitation that applies to the majority of their powers. You could go with RSR/Side effects for a mystic character, for example, but then to get into the -1 range you usually need a substantial side effect. You'll have to clear the side effect with the GM as well, and the GM may have a different idea of what a suitably severe side effect than you do is. Still, it can be done; again see OddHat's Style character for an example (including a discussion of the severity of the side effect.)


Is there any reason in your world to ever take the +1 advantage on summon, change environment, or transform? Or to buy the +1/2 variable special effect advantage? Depends on how you want to buy the power, and what exactly you are trying to do. With the sample multipower above, I outlined a character that could summon 3 (or more) different specific things at full effect, plus a slot that had the +1 advantage, and thus could summon any correspondingly weaker creature. That would seem quite reasonable to me. I can easily see any number of situations where an incidental helper could be useful. However, those incidental helpers don't necessarily need to be built on the same number of AP as your most powerful summons, as they are summoned to fill a specific need, and thus you usually won't need them once that need is filled anyway. The same can be said for summoning specific beings. How many AP of effect do you really need to summon policeman Bob?


Which is why almost nobody ever takes OAF staff on a cosmic VPP in superheroic campaigns. And almost no PCs, at least in my world, take it on their big attack multipower. PCs sometimes have guns or bows, but they either OIF it, or have a decent backup attack.
I wouldn't take OAF staff on the control cost of a cosmic VPP either. Big limitations like that tend not to mix well with VPPs; they are better suited to multipowers. As I mentioned, I commonly see really big multipowers with a limitation in the -1/2 to -1 range, though not usually with an OAF but through a combination of other limitations. Collections of smaller multipowers are often include candidates for an OAF. I tend to see more OAF + backup attack than taking an OIF on a by-default-accessible focus.


How about comparing it to the 100 pt attacks only version or 110 pt magic only version? [/B]
An attacks only VPP would be a -1/4 lim according to FREd, so also 110 points. I'm not certain that a magic-only VPP even qualifies for a -1/4 limitation -- it's listed as a sample -1/4 limitation, but (a) according to the VPP description you're supposed to have a common SFX for your VPP anyway, and (b) none of the examples in FREd include a limitation for being a "gadget pool" or a "magic pool." Someone who wanted to take a -1/4 lim on their VPP just for having a common SFX would have to convince me why it was a limitation first.

At 110 points, the VPP is paying a fairly hefty premium for its flexibility. A 10d6 variable SFX EB would be 75 AP. Even continuing to ignore limitations, I could boost my multipower to 75 AP and still have not too much problem paying for slots with that kind of points to work with -- and I could put a 15d6 EB in there if I wanted. Or I could buy quite a few 50 AP slots for that kind of points.

Doesn't seem to be terribly unbalanced. Yes, the VPP has a ton of flexibility. But he has to pay a LOT of points to get it. Would I choose the VPP or the MP for my character? That would depend on what my conception was, and whether I thought I could fulfill as visualized it within my points budget.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Zed-F Yes, the VPP has a ton of flexibility. But he has to pay a LOT of points to get it.

Another comment on the flexibility "problem": It isn't always a problem. It depends on campaign type and power level, character concept and how the character will work in the team. A 60 point VPP with clearly defined SFX and GM defined limits, even a cosmic 60 point VPP, is not going to allow its user to overshadow team mates or unballance the campaign if the rest of the team has 90 active point powers.

In pure combat terms infinite flexibility isn't that much of a bonus; a multipower user can easily exceed the combat potential of a VPP user unless you intentionally stack the deck in favor of the VPPer. Yes, Doc Summoner can summon absolutely anything up to 300 points with his 105 point cosmic Summon Only VPP. The multi-power using Conjureman could take the same 105 points and build himself 5 350 point summoned minions; in practical terms he has almost as much flexibility, more power, same total points. Add limitations into the picture and things shift even more to the multipower user; as has been pointed out repeatedly, he gets more points back for the limits he takes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary
Flexibility counts for a lot, just like in any world. However, with a multipower, you're paying for that flexibility. Each additional bit of flexibility costs you more points. Points that you're not spending to increase dex/spd or more powerful attacks.

Which is why many of us view the VPP as the ultimate evolution of the Multipower. At some point, it becomes equal to have a VPP (infinite flexibility) rather than a multipower.

At lower than "cosmic", you trade off flexiobility (number of options) for flexibility (ease of switching between options).

[Hugh Neilson]

First, Gary says:


Originally posted by Gary
It becomes more valuable because for transforms, change environments, and summons, it normally costs a +1 advantage to have total flexibility. For most attack powers, it normally costs a +1/2 advantage to be able to have total flexibility in variable special effects. I don't like the fact that someone could buy a more useful power cheaper through vpps.

He adds some discussion about variable special effects on attack powers.

Then he says:


Originally posted by Gary
If the vpp is change environment only, I wouldn't have any problems with it. If it's any magic special effect, then the restrictions would apply.

Gary, first you say you DO have a problem with Change Envronment and they should have the +1 advantage, then you say Change Environment is not a concern. Do you mean that you would not impose the +1 advantage requirement if the VPP can onl;y have Change Environments?

If so, wouldn't this logically also apply to the "summon only" VPP you were saying ewas too cheap without such a restriction in the first place? :confused:

Maybe I'm reading too fast - does anyone else out there see this inconsistency?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat
In pure combat terms infinite flexibility isn't that much of a bonus; a multipower user can easily exceed the combat potential of a VPP user unless you intentionally stack the deck in favor of the VPPer. Yes, Doc Summoner can summon absolutely anything up to 300 points with his 105 point cosmic Summon Only VPP. The multi-power using Conjureman could take the same 105 points and build himself 5 350 point summoned minions; in practical terms he has almost as much flexibility, more power, same total points. Add limitations into the picture and things shift even more to the multipower user; as has been pointed out repeatedly, he gets more points back for the limits he takes.

In fairnes, "Summon Only" is a terrible VPP to limit anyway. The real benefit of limiting VPP powers is having more powers active at the same time. With Summon, who cares? Call them up and move along!

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
In fairnes, "Summon Only" is a terrible VPP to limit anyway. The real benefit of limiting VPP powers is having more powers active at the same time. With Summon, who cares? Call them up and move along!

Summon Only would be a control cost limit; it wouldent reduce the number of points taken up in the VPP by the power (which may be what you meant anyway; I'm posting in a sleep deprived state right now).

I agree that it's a limit that should be looked at very closely. My main concern would be someone getting the point break on the Summon Only VPP and then summoning an amicable wish granting Djinn or witch...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat
Summon Only would be a control cost limit; it wouldent reduce the number of points taken up in the VPP by the power (which may be what you meant anyway; I'm posting in a sleep deprived state right now).

I agree that it's a limit that should be looked at very closely. My main concern would be someone getting the point break on the Summon Only VPP and then summoning an amicable wish granting Djinn or witch...

No, I mean what would be the point of placing limits on the Summon? In many VPP's, I may consider putting limitations on the powers. For example, if I have an 80 point VPP, I can have 2 60 point powers if I put -1/2 limits on them (60/1.5 = 40 x 2 = 80). With Summon, who cares? Summon your creatures and, if you want something else, reconfigure the points and summon something else. Taking the old Summon power out doesn't the creatures you already summoned away.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Gary, first you say you DO have a problem with Change Envronment and they should have the +1 advantage, then you say Change Environment is not a concern. Do you mean that you would not impose the +1 advantage requirement if the VPP can onl;y have Change Environments?

If so, wouldn't this logically also apply to the "summon only" VPP you were saying ewas too cheap without such a restriction in the first place? :confused:

To be fair, Gary also said the following:

I'm not penalizing all vpps. I'm only penalizing vpps that:

1) Are easy to change in combat.

2) Have a "large" selection of powers.
He also previously stated that he would probably not enforce a +1 advantage against a summon-only VPP. It looks to me like in this case, Gary's being internally consistent with his own statements, though you have to search the thread to find the appropriate comments.

Whether it's internally consistent to not enforce a +1 advantage for a 87-point cosmic summon-only pool but still enforce a +1 advantage on transforms in a 110-point attacks-only pool, I leave for you to decide.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F
It depends on the conception. Typical range is between -1/2 and -1 for most focus-based characters. Certainly most weaponmasters will have an OAF weapon. They will also have martial arts so they are not helpless when they get disarmed. Often they will have several different foci with different sets of powers associated. A powered armour character -- usually -1/2 for most characters, but could be more depending on the conception. A battlesuit would not likely be an OAF, but could be an OIF with additional restrictions, such as an additional "drain one drain all" on a particular SFX, or "uncommon restrainable" limitation. Even so, my powered armour characters will usually have some combat abilites not purchased on the armour, e.g. martial arts or a gadget pool. Similar for a focus-based mystic -- usually the focus will be OIF, but it could have some additional limitations on it depending on conception.

For non-focus characters, it's often harder to come up with a large limitation that applies to the majority of their powers. You could go with RSR/Side effects for a mystic character, for example, but then to get into the -1 range you usually need a substantial side effect. You'll have to clear the side effect with the GM as well, and the GM may have a different idea of what a suitably severe side effect than you do is. Still, it can be done; again see OddHat's Style character for an example (including a discussion of the severity of the side effect.)

I usually go with -1/2 or less for the main attack or defense abilities unless it's power armor. A lot like you I guess. I dislike weaponmaster type characters since it's too easy to deal with OAF weapons. For example, all you need is a 12d6 EB spread for +6 OCV to aim for the weapon, and most weaponmasters would be disarmed. Or certain types of area effects and explosions are also effective.


Originally posted by Zed-F

Depends on how you want to buy the power, and what exactly you are trying to do. With the sample multipower above, I outlined a character that could summon 3 (or more) different specific things at full effect, plus a slot that had the +1 advantage, and thus could summon any correspondingly weaker creature. That would seem quite reasonable to me. I can easily see any number of situations where an incidental helper could be useful. However, those incidental helpers don't necessarily need to be built on the same number of AP as your most powerful summons, as they are summoned to fill a specific need, and thus you usually won't need them once that need is filled anyway. The same can be said for summoning specific beings. How many AP of effect do you really need to summon policeman Bob?

The summon specific being power is quite powerful in a vpp. Anytime you need policeman Bob, you can get him. You may even be able to summon Bill Gates, Congressmen or the President if needed, since they would probably be less than 125 pts assuming a 50 pt vpp. If you tried that with a multipower, you would have to pay permanent points for each slot and you couldn't do it on the fly.


Originally posted by Zed-F

I wouldn't take OAF staff on the control cost of a cosmic VPP either. Big limitations like that tend not to mix well with VPPs; they are better suited to multipowers. As I mentioned, I commonly see really big multipowers with a limitation in the -1/2 to -1 range, though not usually with an OAF but through a combination of other limitations. Collections of smaller multipowers are often include candidates for an OAF. I tend to see more OAF + backup attack than taking an OIF on a by-default-accessible focus.

Yeah, I only OAF stuff that I wouldn't really miss too much if taken away. It's hard to take big limitations on your main attacks or defenses with a proper GM, because you know he'll use your weaknesses against you.



Originally posted by Zed-F

An attacks only VPP would be a -1/4 lim according to FREd, so also 110 points. I'm not certain that a magic-only VPP even qualifies for a -1/4 limitation -- it's listed as a sample -1/4 limitation, but (a) according to the VPP description you're supposed to have a common SFX for your VPP anyway, and (b) none of the examples in FREd include a limitation for being a "gadget pool" or a "magic pool." Someone who wanted to take a -1/4 lim on their VPP just for having a common SFX would have to convince me why it was a limitation first.

That's strange. Takofanes has a -1/4 limitation, magic only, on his 150 pt cosmic vpp. Attacks only is definitely more restricting than magic only, so I assumed it was -1/2.


Originally posted by Zed-F

At 110 points, the VPP is paying a fairly hefty premium for its flexibility. A 10d6 variable SFX EB would be 75 AP. Even continuing to ignore limitations, I could boost my multipower to 75 AP and still have not too much problem paying for slots with that kind of points to work with -- and I could put a 15d6 EB in there if I wanted. Or I could buy quite a few 50 AP slots for that kind of points.

Doesn't seem to be terribly unbalanced. Yes, the VPP has a ton of flexibility. But he has to pay a LOT of points to get it. Would I choose the VPP or the MP for my character? That would depend on what my conception was, and whether I thought I could fulfill as visualized it within my points budget.

A 75 pt multipower would only have 5 slots for 110 pts. And the slot with 10d6 +1/2 variable special effects pays 7 end per shot rather than 5. And a 75 pt multipower may bust campaign damage limits while the 50 pt vpp may not.

At this level without limitations, the cosmic vpp is clearly better. If you add limitations, it gets better for the multipower, but the downside of course is that these are limitations and any decent GM will use them against you.

I happen to think that someone with an easily changed vpp with a large selection of powers already has enough flexibility without stepping on the toes of people who actually pay the +1 flexibility advantage for their powers.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F
To be fair, Gary also said the following:

He also previously stated that he would probably not enforce a +1 advantage against a summon-only VPP. It looks to me like in this case, Gary's being internally consistent with his own statements, though you have to search the thread to find the appropriate comments.

Whether it's internally consistent to not enforce a +1 advantage for a 87-point cosmic summon-only pool but still enforce a +1 advantage on transforms in a 110-point attacks-only pool, I leave for you to decide.

Thanks Zed.

I think it's fair. For 23 additional pts, you get far more than enough other powers and advantages to balance the reduced flexibility with summons, transforms, and change environment.

[Zed-F]

The summon specific being power is quite powerful in a vpp. Anytime you need policeman Bob, you can get him. You may even be able to summon Bill Gates, Congressmen or the President if needed, since they would probably be less than 125 pts assuming a 50 pt vpp. If you tried that with a multipower, you would have to pay permanent points for each slot and you couldn't do it on the fly.
You seem to have missed my point about summoned incidental helpers not requiring the same AP to summon. You can summon any specific being in a MP just as easily as with a VPP -- you just can't do it with the same amount of AP of effect (unless your MP has a bigger AP reserve than the VPP, which is entirely possible considering their relative costs.) For a 60-point MP slot, you can buy a summon, anything (+1), specific individual (+1) and get up to 100 point people. That's anything up to and including any competent normal based on 50+50. Summon Bill Gates, the President, or a Congressman? No problem! It just costs you 6 points in an ultra slot (less limitations.) Your other slots will hold the combat-effective summons. A 30-point MP slot might not be able to get the President, but would still be able to get any skilled normal (e.g. specific judges, police chiefs, etc.) built on 25+25. Even with a measly 15-point slot you can still get Policeman Bob, since he's just a normal built on 0+25 points.


Yeah, I only OAF stuff that I wouldn't really miss too much if taken away. It's hard to take big limitations on your main attacks or defenses with a proper GM, because you know he'll use your weaknesses against you.
As he should. However, a proper GM will also not overdo using your limitations against you, and when he does use them against you he will both tailor the threat level to your character appropriately and will provide an opportunity for your character to grab his share of the spotlight. Again, this is very in-genre.


A 75 pt multipower would only have 5 slots for 110 pts. And the slot with 10d6 +1/2 variable special effects pays 7 end per shot rather than 5. And a 75 pt multipower may bust campaign damage limits while the 50 pt vpp may not.

At this level without limitations, the cosmic vpp is clearly better. If you add limitations, it gets better for the multipower, but the downside of course is that these are limitations and any decent GM will use them against you.

I happen to think that someone with an easily changed vpp with a large selection of powers already has enough flexibility without stepping on the toes of people who actually pay the +1 flexibility advantage for their powers.[/B]
That's your prerogative. I can't say I agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. It seems to me that the VPP player has already paid for it as well.

The 110-point attacks-only cosmic VPP is only better than a 75-point attack multipower if the campaign damage cap is 50 AP. If the damage cap is 75 AP, the MP is probably the stronger option. If we consider that the MP can have more than just attacks in it, again it's not clear which is better; we'd need to know exactly what the MP has in it to decide.

I'll agree that, in general, if I want no limitations at all, I tend to prefer a VPP to an MP -- in fact, I've already stated as much. OTOH, I don't think limitations on powers are nearly as big a curse as you seem to make them out to be. They are just another opportunity to roleplay; a good GM will use them against you but will make sure to tailor the scenario to the fact that he is using them against you.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Gary
The summon specific being power is quite powerful in a vpp. Anytime you need policeman Bob, you can get him. You may even be able to summon Bill Gates, Congressmen or the President if needed, since they would probably be less than 125 pts assuming a 50 pt vpp. If you tried that with a multipower, you would have to pay permanent points for each slot and you couldn't do it on the fly.

The description of Summon specifically describes Summon Specific Being as being used for summoning the spirits of the dead, and cautions against using it to summon the living; It's effectively a Stop sign advantage on a Stop sign power, and a GM who permitted it to be used to summon Bill Gates or the President has no excuse claiming not to know what he's getting into. Furthermore, considering the value of his actual stats and skills, wealth, contacts and followers, none of which neccesarily come free with "Head of State," the case can be made that the President of the United States is always going to be far more than a 150 point character in "realistic" campaigns.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F
You seem to have missed my point about summoned incidental helpers not requiring the same AP to summon. You can summon any specific being in a MP just as easily as with a VPP -- you just can't do it with the same amount of AP of effect (unless your MP has a bigger AP reserve than the VPP, which is entirely possible considering their relative costs.) For a 60-point MP slot, you can buy a summon, anything (+1), specific individual (+1) and get up to 100 point people. That's anything up to and including any competent normal based on 50+50. Summon Bill Gates, the President, or a Congressman? No problem! It just costs you 6 points in an ultra slot (less limitations.) Your other slots will hold the combat-effective summons. A 30-point MP slot might not be able to get the President, but would still be able to get any skilled normal (e.g. specific judges, police chiefs, etc.) built on 25+25. Even with a measly 15-point slot you can still get Policeman Bob, since he's just a normal built on 0+25 points.

Of course this is adding up in terms of points spent. We're already up to 3 combat summons, a misc summons, and a specific being summons slot. And you probably still want 1-2 slots with multiple weaker summons as well. That's a lot of points spent on slots already.


Originally posted by Zed-F

As he should. However, a proper GM will also not overdo using your limitations against you, and when he does use them against you he will both tailor the threat level to your character appropriately and will provide an opportunity for your character to grab his share of the spotlight. Again, this is very in-genre.

Yep, which is why most OAF characters have a backup attack, which soaks up some of his points savings from OAF. If I were a GM and a character bought all his attacks OAF with no backup attack, then I would have no sympathy if he loses the OAF and has to run away or twiddle his thumbs.


Originally posted by Zed-F

That's your prerogative. I can't say I agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. It seems to me that the VPP player has already paid for it as well.

So has the player who paid for the +1 advantage on summon, change environment, or transform. Or the player who paid for the +1/2 variable special effects advantage.


Originally posted by Zed-F

The 110-point attacks-only cosmic VPP is only better than a 75-point attack multipower if the campaign damage cap is 50 AP. If the damage cap is 75 AP, the MP is probably the stronger option. If we consider that the MP can have more than just attacks in it, again it's not clear which is better; we'd need to know exactly what the MP has in it to decide.

Hugh would disagree with you about that. He has stated that a 60 pt multipower with 5 slots is a better option than a straight 90 pt attack.

With enough limitations, the 75 pt multipower can be better since you can get more slots. However at the base level, a 75 pt multipower with 5 slots (110 pts) is probably inferior to the 50 pt magic only vpp for the same 110 pts.


Originally posted by Zed-F

I'll agree that, in general, if I want no limitations at all, I tend to prefer a VPP to an MP -- in fact, I've already stated as much. OTOH, I don't think limitations on powers are nearly as big a curse as you seem to make them out to be. They are just another opportunity to roleplay; a good GM will use them against you but will make sure to tailor the scenario to the fact that he is using them against you.

Of course that depends a lot on exactly which limitations you take and the approach that the GM takes.

[Gary]

Originally posted by OddHat
The description of Summon specifically describes Summon Specific Being as being used for summoning the spirits of the dead, and cautions against using it to summon the living; It's effectively a Stop sign advantage on a Stop sign power, and a GM who permitted it to be used to summon Bill Gates or the President has no excuse claiming not to know what he's getting into. Furthermore, considering the value of his actual stats and skills, wealth, contacts and followers, none of which neccesarily come free with "Head of State," the case can be made that the President of the United States is always going to be far more than a 150 point character in "realistic" campaigns.

It also states that it can be used if the target is precisely located. Of course if the GM doesn't want the president or Bill Gates summoned, he'll always be able to stop it from happening. It's a lot more likely to be allowed if you summon Bob Policeman.