Life Support

[Seenar]

If a space suit is built (as shown in Star Hero) with only breathing and a few safe envionments, does it still protect you from, say, nerve gas?

[keithcurtis]

It really depends on how the NND for the Nerve Gas is bought. The gas should either be NND-not vs. appropriate life support, in which case game mechanics kick in, or NND-requires skin contact, in which case the SFX dictate immunity.

In the broadest sense, the answer in any case is, "Of course it would". Special effects dictate game mechanics, not the other way around, and common sense trumps all.

Keith "keepin' it simple" Curtis

PS. In my games I would never write up a spacesuit. I would just list the spec.s. It gives you X defense and Y hours of life support. It will protect you from radiation until I tell you you are in danger. Points are for players. :)

[JmOz]

Agreed, most NND should have the appropriate defenses...

[Arthur]

Others have already said as much, so this is a memo from:



The Department of Redundancy Department:


If a spacesuit in game terms does not protect against nerve gas in game terms, then either the space suit or the nerve gas has been defined incorrectly and one or the other needs to be rewritten.

[Seenar]

If I buy the requestie 19 points to survive in space, but don't buy it as a suit, and instead make it a natural talent, then Nerve Gas will effect me?

It seems to me the suit path is not only cheeper, but will give me an effective 20pts of Life Support against Disease and Posions of all kinds because they cannot get to me.

This just does not sit well.

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Seenar
If I buy the requestie 19 points to survive in space, but don't buy it as a suit, and instead make it a natural talent, then Nerve Gas will effect me?

It seems to me the suit path is not only cheeper, but will give me an effective 20pts of Life Support against Disease and Posions of all kinds because they cannot get to me.

This just does not sit well.

yep but you can be affected by a nerve gas or any other aggressive environmental effect when you're outside of your suit.

secondly, while in suit, you cannot be affected by toxic gases or aerial poisons thus you've got 20 points of immunity for free : true and false.
A villain could perfectly put toxines in your air supply ...
If you're the target of a bacteriological attack while in suit : no problem; but you will have to go through the full decontamination program before being able to remove safely the suit.
All things you would not have to do with a natural immunity.

if "Focus" is taken as a limitation then the GM has to play it from time to time. ita missa est

[Lupus]

Originally posted by altamaros
yep but you can be affected by a nerve gas or any other aggressive environmental effect when you're outside of your suit.

secondly, while in suit, you cannot be affected by toxic gases or aerial poisons thus you've got 20 points of immunity for free : true and false.
A villain could perfectly put toxines in your air supply ...
If you're the target of a bacteriological attack while in suit : no problem; but you will have to go through the full decontamination program before being able to remove safely the suit.
All things you would not have to do with a natural immunity.

if "Focus" is taken as a limitation then the GM has to play it from time to time. ita missa est You can also be affected by poisons introduced to your system by darts, claws, stings, etc. Or eaten in food. Disease can, too. A suit will give you immunity to SOME forms of disease. Not all.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Lupus
You can also be affected by poisons introduced to your system by darts, claws, stings, etc. Or eaten in food. Disease can, too. A suit will give you immunity to SOME forms of disease. Not all.

Actually, what you have described (correctly), is that a suit will give you immunity to certain disease VECTORS. It would not be bought with any LS vs. Disease at all: that is a function of a character's internal makeup, typically. However, any airborne or skin-contact vector will bounce off the suit. If not, then that disease vector is improperly defined in game terms.

[Seenar]

It still seems like I am getting LS effect for free if I am building a high tech battle suit. After all, if I bought the LS in the suit, someone could still tamper with the suit since it is focused. Any breach to the suit would kill all LS at once, not just parts. Basically, the special effect declared gets me 20 points for free.

What if I just declare I am made out of Rock, and have the space level LS? No skin, no breathing, resistant PD so I cannot be bitten or poked by things. Again, seems to me I am getting the LS for free.

Which begs the question: Why is LS against disease and posions a whopping 20 points? Seems way to expensive, espcially at a heroic level. I mean, 50 points just to have a Zombie?

[Dust Raven]

It's more of a SFX thing. Some nerve gases don't need to be inhaled....they only need contact with the skin. The SFX of a space suit provides protection from this; it has nothing to do with how many points it cost or what was paid for. You can essentially get the same defense for free by stating that your costume is a wet-suit (though you'll still need to hold your breath or have the SCUBA gear to keep from inhaling the gas).

Of course, if your character was sufficiantly inhuman enough that nerve gas should have no, or a reduced, effect...

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Seenar

Which begs the question: Why is LS against disease and posions a whopping 20 points? Seems way to expensive, espcially at a heroic level. I mean, 50 points just to have a Zombie?

Testify!

That is one of my complaints about FRED. What were they thinking? I would've gone with 5 points each, tops. I think "Immune to Disease" used to be either 3 or 5 points - I had a House Rule about "Immune to Poison" being 5 points, bringing Total LS up to 35 points.

It's "too expensive", not "to expensive". Do they not teach that anymore? Few people under 40 get that right (or how to use an apostrophe).

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Arthur
Testify!

That is one of my complaints about FRED. What were they thinking? I would've gone with 5 points each, tops. I think "Immune to Disease" used to be either 3 or 5 points - I had a House Rule about "Immune to Poison" being 5 points, bringing Total LS up to 35 points.

It's "too expensive", not "to expensive". Do they not teach that anymore? Few people under 40 get that right (or how to use an apostrophe).

Arthur, please read the bulk of Seenar's posts. I believe that is a typo; he doesn't generally make egregious errors in grammar. It's generally considered rude to point out minor errors in a post.

No one pointed out the lack of a verb in your parenthetical clause, for instance. ;)

Keith "said with gentle remonstrance, and not intended as a flame" Curtis

[Xandarr]

It seems to me that if you are allowing protection from nerve gas while in the space suit without paying points, then you have built the suit incorrectly. I say buy the 20 points worth of immunities (with all the appropriate limitations for the suit). Anything that breaches the suit is going to eliminate any and all protections that it provides: Immunities, Safe Environments, Breathing, etc. The suit should have them all. Then you aren't getting them "free" anymore.

Regarding a superhero, he should also buy whatever protections his superhuman physique provides. Nothing free. SFX is supposed to provide "minor" adjustments based on the situation. Giving 20 points of protection for free isn't a minor adjustment that SFX should provide, in my opinion.

But that's just me,
Steve

[dugfromthearth]

Nerve Gas should be bought as an NND with the caveat (required by NND) that it not affect people who need not breathe.

There is no immunity to Nerve Gas given to the suit. The Nerve Gas has a limitation that makes the suit immune to it.

Likewise Ebola has the limitation "must contact the subject's skin". So the special effect of wearing a suit protects from that.

I can invent 1,000 NND's or other attacks with the limitations "does not affect someone wearing shoes" but you cannot expect everyone who wears shoes to have to pay points to be immune to tacks thrown on the road, the bite of ground spiders, puddles of icy water (cumulative transform that makes you sick with the flu), etc.

So why doesn't everyone run around in space suits? Because then they would look like bozos instead of great and amazing heroes. Heroes routinely put themselves in harms way. They could be immune to every attack by staying in bed and hiding under the blankets, but then they wouldn't be heroes.

[keithcurtis]

Perfectly stated, Dug.
I always try and think when two odd powers interact, which is the more logical, to have a Limitation on the power, or to have a character buy the defense.

For instance, I have always been of the opinon that it makes far more sense to have a demon have a simple "Phys. Lim: Cannot cross holy ground", than to buy every single churchyard with an immense, hardened, transdimensional, Invisible forcewall that only affects demons.

The protection offered by a spacesuit is a limitation on the Nerve Gas, not a power granted by the space suit.

Keith "Using common sense" Curtis

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
The protection offered by a spacesuit is a limitation on the Nerve Gas, not a power granted by the space suit.
While I think that this is generally true, I also think a space suit is pretty darn near full Life Support. It just has Limitations such as OIF and "Life Support does not work when suit is ruptured," which I would guess is probably a -1, since the suit is likely to be in jeopardy any time there is a combat situation. I would say the suit is ruptured by any attack which has a cutting, puncturing, or melting type Special Effect (maybe KAs but not NAs) doing enough Body damage to overcome the suit's defenses. The suit probably has an okay PD but good ED. Other attacks or situations might also result in the suit being ruptured, at the GM's discretion (perhaps "dart" NNDs, etc.).

The suit's defenses may even include LS: Immune to Disease, but subject to the above Limitation. After all, some guy in a space suit who walks into a villiage contaminated with all kinds of disease is not going to catch anything unless the suit is removed, punctured, unsealed, etc. At least if we are talking about a "realistic" space suit.

[Seenar]

Originally posted by Xandarr
It seems to me that if you are allowing protection from nerve gas while in the space suit without paying points, then you have built the suit incorrectly. I say buy the 20 points worth of immunities (with all the appropriate limitations for the suit). Anything that breaches the suit is going to eliminate any and all protections that it provides: Immunities, Safe Environments, Breathing, etc. The suit should have them all. Then you aren't getting them "free" anymore.

Regarding a superhero, he should also buy whatever protections his superhuman physique provides. Nothing free. SFX is supposed to provide "minor" adjustments based on the situation. Giving 20 points of protection for free isn't a minor adjustment that SFX should provide, in my opinion.

But that's just me,
Steve

So the offical Space Suit in Star Hero will not protect you from nerve gas?

[Seenar]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Perfectly stated, Dug.
I always try and think when two odd powers interact, which is the more logical, to have a Limitation on the power, or to have a character buy the defense.

For instance, I have always been of the opinon that it makes far more sense to have a demon have a simple "Phys. Lim: Cannot cross holy ground", than to buy every single churchyard with an immense, hardened, transdimensional, Invisible forcewall that only affects demons.

The protection offered by a spacesuit is a limitation on the Nerve Gas, not a power granted by the space suit.

Keith "Using common sense" Curtis

I like that.

[Vondy]

I think its ability to protect against nerve gas would be dependent on the material of the suit and the nature of the gas. Some gases, like VX, can penetrate many materials that are otherwise solid, including some chemical weapons suits.

I would either buy the SE for the suit, or define the gas as "not versus self contained breathing" to demonstrate its more like tear gas than some of the more odious nerve gases.

[cutsleeve]

the is a SFX vrs SFX problem. The "nerve gas" was define that way thats its special effect. and the space suit has self contained breathing prolly in the form of having a time limit of how long the person inside can go without air.

questions
1 how does this nerve gas get to its target, how is it delivered in what form
2 can we assume the special effect for this space suit is like a normal space suit in other words self contained which it sounds like
3 if defined as gas would a "gas" based toxin get through a suit which is proof against high pressure low pressure, vacumm, and has self contained oxygen supply. if the suit has a hold in it it looses all of the above powers because of its special effect.
4 if defined as liquid how would the liquid penetrate a sealed suit which does not allow the outside environment into the suit.

like i said the special effect of the suit is that of a sealed suit with contained breathing systems, seales to prevent exposure to pressure fluxuations, and vacumm. if defined as gas, liquid, or solid how does it get through the suit to its target. this is totally special effect and definition of the NND involved in the nerve gas as GM i would rule that it wouldnt effect it cut and dry.

[Farkling]

And it is being pointed out that the nastier nerve gasses can cross those suit barriers. This is hi-tech or comics, there can be molecules constructed that are smaller )or more flexible at the molecular level?) than the molecules in our breathable air.

So...if the suit doesn't protect against a particularly heinous nerve gas, then it's one of those high tech ones.

I can even think of some examples in science fiction books of BioHazards penetrating lightweight spacesuits.

You can even make the nerve gas a corrosive...
2d6 RKA,NND, Does BODY, EB, defense is self contained breathing linked 2d6 Body Drain vs. Life Support, versus PD instead of Power Defense. Will not affect targets with hardened defenses.

[cutsleeve]

a space suit might not be able to stop drone nanites whose only function is burrow to 6 inch depth and deplow payload. the payload in this case is the neurotoxin. 6 inches of burrowing would allow the nanites to penetrate the suit and deploy the nerotoxin and effect the person in the suit even though the suit hasnt been punctured in an extreme way that would fault its basic function.

thats one special effect that would still be resistable with immunity to toxins but that the special effect of the suit wouldnt prevent.

You should always keep in mind that in hero system. the special effect of a power is important it isnt just flash bang or sparkle sparkle ooooo ahhhhhh. The special effect means something and defines yet another factor in the function of the ability just as much as the power used to build it the advantages and limitations placed on it or any rules which may also apply to it.

In essence we are talking about the differance between a cup make of glass and a cup made of plastic. Theyre both a cup and function like a cup. the glass cup can resist most acids and has a little more heat resistance then the plastic cup but the plastic cup is less fragile and will last forever if used properly. This in hero would be covered by the special effect of the cup.

A Awsome Amazing Outstanding Cup of Normality + 5
transform minor 1d6 (hard to drink liquid into easy to drink liquid)+1/4 0end +1/2 OAF -1 independant -2 AC:8 RC:2
in either glass or plastic :D

[ender42]

Off-topic:
I'd say glass is more durable than plastic. I think most plastics have a 100 year shelf life. And most won't last nearly that long in strong sunlight (voice of experience here). Glass, OTOH, has lasted 1000s of years in dig-sites. Yes, it's more fragile than new plastic (you drop it, it most likely will crack). Older plastic gets brittle, and arguably - is more brittle than equivalently aged glass.

[Vondy]

Off-topic:
I'd say glass is more durable than plastic. I think most plastics have a 100 year shelf life. And most won't last nearly that long in strong sunlight (voice of experience here). Glass, OTOH, has lasted 1000s of years in dig-sites. Yes, it's more fragile than new plastic (you drop it, it most likely will crack). Older plastic gets brittle, and arguably - is more brittle than equivalently aged glass.

Seven years down the road "off topic" doesn't really apply....

[ender42]

Dude, the forum software recommended this as a post I might like, and I *never* read the dates on things, so I was deeply engrossed in the discussion (and I'm a fan from, uhh? Way Back so it was all making sense....) and I had to comment.