Duplication is broken

[Big Willy]

I'm having trouble getting my head round the change to Duplication in FRED.

As written, the cost of the power is now based not on its effect, but on the total points of the character who has it. There are really two problems with this.

Let's say, for convenience, you've got a 200-point character (100+100) who can make a single duplicate of himself. That means he's spent 40 points on Dup. So far, so good... but the duplicate is also a 200-point character, so either he's got Duplication as well (and it doesn't take a genius to spot where that takes you), or he's got 40 character points to spend on stuff that the original character doesn't have.

That's the big glitch, conceptually. The little one is more of an accounting problem to do with upgrading. If the character doubles the number of duplicates he can make, it doesn't cost him 5 points (the listed cost); it costs him six, because his point total has gone up to 205... except it's really gone up to 206... except it's really gone up to 207.2, except it's really gone up to 208.64.... and so on. It's only a niggle, really, but it's unnecessary.

4th Ed had neither of these problems. The cost of a single duplicate was based on the points in the duplicate, and the cost for doubling the numbers was a straight five points a time, paid by the main character only, with no annoying recursions.

Why the change?

[Steve Long]

The "Fifth Edition Questions" board is not intended for design philosophy discussions, which I generally don't get involved with anyway for a whole bunch of reasons. I've transferred your question to the "HERO System Discussion" board, where Herodom Assembled can discuss and debate at will.

[JmOz]

Thanks Steve, I love to comment on things like this:

Okay, simply put, the whole base it on the actualy character is a lazy way to do it, and as per the FAQ, you do not NEED to do it that way if you want to find the cost break point, a anoying and tireing way to do it (but as a min maxer, one I use...)

Then again I think it is broken for a number of different reasons, Personaly I think it is a waste of paper, and the power as a whole should be "absorbed" into Summon (Summon 100% loyal, a new Lim based on how similar the characters are, with 100% being a -1), then again I think that Regen should be returned and that the Instant Change should be a form of Shapeshift not Transform

[nharwell]

Originally posted by JmOz
Then again I think it is broken for a number of different reasons, Personaly I think it is a waste of paper, and the power as a whole should be "absorbed" into Summon (Summon 100% loyal, a new Lim based on how similar the characters are, with 100% being a -1), then again I think that Regen should be returned and that the Instant Change should be a form of Shapeshift not Transform

I think writing up the "alternate" powers makes an interesting exercise. Let me try Instant Change. Assuming you want to be equivalent to the current version (Transform) where your clothing actually changes, you'd have to do something like:

Shapeshift: base sense group (10), the other 6 sense groups (+18), costs END only to Change Shape (+1/4), Limited-clothing only (-1) = 18 points (real cost). Hmm...even if you say that limitation is -2, the real cost would be 12 points. This version of the power would be slightly more expensive...

Edited due to incorrect interpretation of Shapeshift cost vs. different sense groups

[TheEmerged]

The philosphical answer to the question probably runs something like this:

To make duplication work more like it tends to work in fiction.

The x2 Duplicates for +5 points goes a long way toward that. What's more, fictional duplication powers generally don't create duplicates that differ from the "base" form much, if at all.