Ars Magica inspired magic

[Alcamtar]

I've been thinking a lot about how I want to do magic. The thing that always stops me cold are trying to define a set of spell colleges. But, I really like the Ars Magica system.

If you're not familiar with Ars Magica, it is based on five Techniques and ten Forms. To cast a fireball you could Create Fire, but to make fire jump from a torch you could Control Fire, and to create a cold environment you might Destroy Fire.

TECHNIQUES*: Create, Destroy, Transform, Control, Perceive (detect).

FORMS: Air, Animal (nonsentient forms), Body (sentient humanoid forms), Earth, Fire, Illusion, Magic (includes spirits), Mind (thought, emotion, and soul), Plant, Water.

(*In Ars Magica you don't normally summon demons, teleport around, or travel to other planes. For a game that feature these I recommend a sixth technique, Conjure, for transdimensional movement and instant teleportation.)

Anyway if you're unfamiliar with Ars Magica, you can downlowd a free PDF here: http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/free/index.html

So, how to do this in Hero?

METHOD ONE

One way would be to have a single large VPP, with ten 'Form' skills and five 'Technique' skills; to cast a spell, you must have all applicable Forms and Techniques... and roll against the LOWEST of all applicable skills. However VPP costs can be prohibitive, and this method also requires a very large skill investment. You could of course use Background skills (PS or KS) to make it cheaper, but that's still not going to leave very many points for the VPP, especially not one big enough to do "high fantasy" magic.

METHOD TWO

Fantasy Hero game me a different idea. One of the sample magic systems is based on 12 colleges, and you must buy a VPP separately for each college... 5 CP for a base 25 point pool, and +5 pool points for each +1 CP thereafter. This makes it much easier to afford a VPP big enough for large effects in one or two specialities, and have a small VPP for non-specialites. Each college also requires its own magic skill, which is very expensive; you can afford to specialize in one or two colleges, but not all twelve.

So, the Ars Magica-inspired version:

Each Technique is a standard magic skill (INT-based, cost 3/2).

Each Form is a VPP, costing 5 points for a base 25-point VPP, and +1 point for each +5 points in the pool. So a 30 point pool costs 6 CP, and a 50 point pool costs 10 CP.

To cast a spell, you must have the appropriate Form VPP, but make your magic roll against the Technique. Example, if a Fireball is 'Create Fire', you'd use the Create skill and the Fire VPP. The standard -1/10 active point skill penalty applies, so if you have a large VPP you'll need a large skill to go with it. If a spell fits into multiple forms ("Fiery Wind") you can choose whichever VPP you want to put it in, but active points are limited to the size of the smaller pool.

Each Form also has an associated Knowledge Skill that is required to use it. So if you have Fire VPP, you also need KS:Fire Magic. You need at least familiarity with the KS to cast a spell. The KS are primarily used for Spell Research, Analyze spell, and the like. The GM might require a KS roll to do something really tricky with a spell, or to correctly identify a spell being cast by a foe. The KS could also be useful for finding and preparing foci, or for alchemy. Or you might require a KS roll to successfully learn a new spell related to a given form.

With multiple VPPs, you have a lot of real points to work with without a high active point ceiling. For example, if you had all ten forms as 25-point VPPs, you could have 250 real points of spells "loaded" but no spell could exceed 25 active. That would be ideal for use with Killer Shrike's charge-based "fire and forget" magic system, if you like that.

Anyway, if you're wondering what this would look like, here are some sample characters. These are only partial characters, looking at just the cost for the magic, not other skills and abilities. Also these all use an END reserve shared among all VPPs.

JOHNNY ONE-SPELL
Can do one thing really really well. Makes a good combat mage
with a large END reserve and a high recovery rate, and enough points left over for some hand-to-hand combat abilities.

8 INT 18
20 VPP 100
19 Technique: Create (21-)
9 KS: Fire Magic (21-)
9 Reserve 40 END, 5 REC (5 per turn)
65 TOTAL

JACK OF ALL SPELLS
Can do almost anything... as long as its small.
A small END reserve powers his mostly weak spells.

8 INT 18
3 Scholar
50 Ten forms at VPP 25
15 All five Techniques (13-)
10 All ten KS:Form (13-)
4 Reserve 30 END, 1 REC (5 per hour)
90 TOTAL

TYPICAL TOM
He covers all bases but also specializes a bit.
Costs a lot of points; not much left for the END reserve.

16 INT 23
3 Scholar
14 1x VPP 70
24 3x VPP 40
30 6x VPP 25
11 1x Technique (18-)
7 1x Technique (16-)
9 3x Technique (14-)
5 1x KS:Form (18-)
9 9x KS:Form (14-)
5 Reserve 30 END, 2 REC (10 per hour)
133 TOTAL

ARCHIE THE ARCHMAGE (NPC)
This guy can cast pretty big stuff. To be this powerful AND diverse is
probably rare; more likely he'd have 100 pts in a couple of forms, and
30-50 points in the rest.

16 INT 23
3 Scholar
150 10x VPP 75
65 5x Technique (19-)
60 10x KS:Form (19-)
15 Reserve 100 END, 5 REC (25 per hour)
309 TOTAL

SAURON (NPC)
This guy can do pretty much whatever he wants; this is the "dark lord" level of power, and the PCs are not going to be able to seriously threaten him, but he's presented to give an idea of how much it would cost to "max out" the system.

36 INT 33
3 Scholar
380 10x VPP 200
165 5x Technique (31-)
160 10x KS:Form (31-)
30 Reserve 200 END, 10 REC (50 per hour)
774 TOTAL


Comments?

Mike

[bjbrown]

<P>I'm only vaguely familiar with Ars Magica. But I think that the best way to simulate magic would be with the Variable Power Pool. You could add limitations to the control cost based upon the forms lacking (-2 for only one form, -1 for five forms, something like that). If your game is going to be like Ars Magica in that mages are just far more powerful than non-mages, increase the base character points enough to allow all characters to buy an appropriately-sized VPP.</P>
<P>Another option would be to use an entirely skill-based magic system- that is, magic is not represented with powers, but with skills in forms and techniques. It's similar to the VPP idea, but no one would actually buy a VPP. The character can create any magical effect, as long as he has the appropriate skills and makes a skill roll in each (with active point penalties, of course). Characters could also be allowed to buy skills with rotes.</P>

[Killer Shrike]

Its been a loooooooooong time since Ive done anything w/ Ars Magica, but its magic system does rock. Im glancing over at a shelf w/ about 6 or 8 Ars books.....I think there is a method in FH aimed at Ars Magica style magic......Ill check it out...

[Markdoc]

I'd cast my vote for method 1, with perhaps a -3/4 limit for "requires multiple skill rolls".

Method 2 is not only non hero standard ((Yeah, I know, I'm a boring old fart, but I really hate that. If you are going to make up rules out of whole cloth, why not just go to a storyteller-based system?) but also looks as abusable as all hell (johhny "one shot" packs enough firepower to level castles, and slaughter troops by the battalion, into 65 points. Ugh, ugh and double ugh).

If you want a game where all the players are mages (and that fits well enough with ArsM) then method 2 would give you that: but in that case why not just start mages off at a higher points level and use method1? Then the cost of the VPP becomes moot.

cheers, Mark

[John Desmarais]

Originally posted by Alcamtar
I've been thinking a lot about how I want to do magic. The thing that always stops me cold are trying to define a set of spell colleges. But, I really like the Ars Magica system.

(snippage)

Comments?

Mike

I don't know if it will help you any, but quite some time back I took a stab at creating a Fantasy Hero magic system loosely based on the one from Ars Magica. You can find it here: http://www.sysabend.org/champions/spoo/JDD-Haymaker28.pdf

John D.

[C_Zeree]

I believe I agree with Markdoc, unless you trust players, Johhny One Spell is Dangerous. COurse I am a rullmonger as well. ;)

My rules for Ars Nagica/MAGE style games are magi are not human, even by the "gifted human" stadards of 150 pts. Characters start bulding with 150 points then they're given 100 points (50 actual/50 disadvantage) to design their magic.

One honkin VPP covers it all, slap on RSR (-1/2) and Limited to known Forms/Spheres (-1/2 to 1, in the beginning). Possibly a Side Effect in a MAGE game. My thoughts were beginning magi aren't all powerful, most don' have the +2 cosmic pool, so costs don't explode. This means it takes them a minute to think up a new spell, still power that shouldn't be trifled with. If they want to crate a spell on the fly they roll their MAGIC rol with a -1 per 5 AP of the spell they want.

With only 100 pts you can get:
62 VPP 50
15 Power: Sphere (17-)
11 Power: Sphere (15-)
7 Power: Sphere (13-)
5 Reserve 30 END, 2 REC (10 per hour)

Just my 2 c

Good luck

[Markdoc]

Actually it's not that I don't trust my players: I am too old to waste time with people I don't want to play with :)

But giving that level of power to players ensures that it WILL be used, even if the intent is not obviously to be abusive.

If Nosedrip the wizard can generate a 6d6 RKA "Sunblast", Arrowroot the Ranger is going to feel a little put out, no matter how good he is with his bow....

cheers, Mark

[Alcamtar]

How will it be abused? Don't you use "campaign limits" on spells or require GM approval?

Sure he may have a 100 point VPP, but he still needs the GM's permission to actually use that much power. Also it's not like he paid that much for it so he can complain, and the GM should have told him that there will be few spells he can cast with than many active points. He can pack it full of real points but the GM still has to approve any 100 active point spell, and that's not likely to happen unless it is either balanced or a plot device.

Mike

[C_Zeree]

True that Markdoc.

I am speaking from PBeM games where you don't get to know players the same way you do face to face.

And I agree with you Alcamtar, I saw AP and the immediate knee jerk reaction was to think massive AP spells. Not a large pool of smaller spells, which with game limits you should have.

I still haven't gotten past the idea: points symbolize power. Someone with a VPP is far more powerful than someone without, and the heafty point chunk represents this. To me itslike trying to make a 150 pt super hero feasable by making EB only cost 1 pt. You can do it, but you now have skewed your base for comparison.

YMMV

[JakSpade]

Originally posted by John Desmarais
I don't know if it will help you any, but quite some time back I took a stab at creating a Fantasy Hero magic system loosely based on the one from Ars Magica. You can find it here: http://www.sysabend.org/champions/spoo/JDD-Haymaker28.pdf

John D.

I started reading this document, and I thought to myself... what if the Hermetic Techniques decided what Limitations could be used with the spells?

For example, the "Creo (I Create)" technique would only require that the mage use a quick wave of the hand (Gestures -1/4) or power phrase (Incantations -1/4) , but the "Rego (I Control)" technique required that the mage be able to speak to the target, or have telepathic contact.

Any ideas?
Jak

[Markdoc]

On raw power..

>>>How will it be abused? Don't you use "campaign limits" on spells or require GM approval?<<<<

Spells in my game certainly require approval, so you could limit it that way: OTOH, that level of control immediately runs a truck over the Ars Magica feel, where spells are spontaneous constructs.

I don't use campaign limits. In general I feel campiagn limits encourage "samey" characters as everyone starts to push the limits. Finally, it just seems to me that campaign limits that apply to PCs but not NPCs are mostly a crutch for weak GM'ing. OTOH, I have relatively few house rules, so the system tends to be fairly balanced - maybe that is why I never felt the need for campaign limits.

>>>>Sure he may have a 100 point VPP, but he still needs the GM's permission to actually use that much power.<<<<

As a GM, I tend to avoid adding rules to the game which explicitly force me to choose a player's development. Although it is sometimes unavoidable, falling back on "You can't, because I say so" is usually a sign of poor planning on the GM's part (not trying to be insulting: it happens to me too :(. In this case, even if you limit the overall active points in one power, that makes the character only marginally less obnoxious: he has 4 60 point powers active at once instead of 2 100 pointers. You could avoid the whole scenario by setting the active point cost much lower, but in that case the whole thing becomes pretty pointless- you could just have ued a normal VPP.

If you didn't want the player to have 100 points active to play with, why bend the rules to give them a cheap 100 point VPP? :P

Puzzledly, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Hmm, I skimmed thru FH and couldnt find what I was looking for.

I could have sworn there was some bit about a magic system made up of Talents that each act like mini-VPPs (which would be very workable for an Ars Magica-like system). Maybe it was a post somewhere here in the forums....anyone else recall something of that sort?

[C_Zeree]

It was the system "The Gift" pg 265.

Alcamtar summed it up in his opening post.

Of course maybe that's not what you're thinking of? :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
It was the system "The Gift" pg 265.

Alcamtar summed it up in his opening post.

Of course maybe that's not what you're thinking of? :) Ill check it out when I get home. It could be; I didnt read his opening post very closely -- just skimmed it. Its difficult to read big long chunky posts on the sly at work -- not that I browse the boards when I should be working of course -- that would be wrong ;)

[comfortmd]

i ran ars magica for years, i own all those books, of which most are out of print...

The easiest way to simulate magic that would have an ars magicka "feel" would be to have the various forms as seperate multipowers with rsr's of the requisite technique involved. Planar travel and summoning btw was rego (to control or regulate), creo (to create), or muto (to mutate or transform), perdo (to destroy) and "VIM" which relates to magic itself, and is involved with penetrating levels of regio or banishing / summoning / controlling demons and the fey (or faeries).

Be careful of how you use that magic setup, as it was always possible to burnout (Twilight) or just damage your ability to cast magic. Also there were skills such as penetration, and the "Parma Magicka" that gave mages innate and STRONG magic resistance. PM me if you have any futher questions.

[Alcamtar]

For my part, I'm not really looking to capture the "feel" of Ars Magica. I just like the "college" organization. I'm putting together a FH campaign that's a mix of Swords and Sorcery and High Fantasy, with a bit of Greyhawk fell thrown in.

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Alcamtar
For my part, I'm not really looking to capture the "feel" of Ars Magica. I just like the "college" organization. I'm putting together a FH campaign that's a mix of Swords and Sorcery and High Fantasy, with a bit of Greyhawk fell thrown in.

Mike Er....thats pretty much my entire Fantasy campaign as it happens :)

[Killer Shrike]

OK, looking at FH now. Yes, the Gift (pg 266) is what I was thinking of. This architecture of Magic is ideally suited to Ars Magica w/ just a slight modification IMO.

Instead of the 9 Schools or whatever from the Gift, the 5 Forms and 10 Techniques of Ars Magica are substituted.

As a slight Mod, All Spells must include at least 1 Form and 1 Technique. You add the AP provided by the applicable Form and Technique to determine how many AP are available to the Spell.

Spells cost Personal Endurance, but can also be fueled from Tass, which are treated as little mini non-Recovering END Reserves. All Spells must take a +1/4 Advantage "Personal Endurance or Endurance Reserve" to be able to take advantage of this ability. Theoretically I suppose some Spells could be allocated to only run off of Tass rather than Personal Endurance, but that should be the rare exception and is probably better represented by a FOCI requirement.

The way The Gift is written up seems to imply that the VPP's provided by the Talents are in effect Cosmic, as it states that a character may cast any spell he knows from a particular Arcana. This really begs the question why you would apply any limitations to the Powers as you arent being charged character points for them and you apparantly arent limited by Real Cost either.

To maintain that Ars Magica Feel however, as a default all Spells must take the following Limitations where appropriate:

Incantations, Gestures, Concentration worth -1/2 or more total. Thus Complex Incantations -1/2, Incantations Throughout -1/2, Gestures 2 Hands -1/2, Complex Gestures, Gestures Throughout -1/2, or Gestures & Incantations are all valid.

Extra Time or Extra Endurance worth at least -1 1/2 total. Thus Extra Time: 1 Turn Character May Take No Other Actions -1 1/2, Extra Time: Full Phase -1/2 & Extra Endurance x 3 -1, Extra Endurance x4 -1 1/2, etc

In addition all Ranged Powers must take:
Law of Contagion: 1/4 Range unless Appropriate Foci Used (-1/4)

All Powers must take:
Law of Sympathy: Spell has 3/4 Effect unless Appropriate Foci Used (-1/4)

Since the lack of a FOCI is much less restricting in these circumstances, FOCI take a -1/2 adjustment. Thus an OIF is worth -0, while an OAF is worth -1/2.

In effect, FOCI arent necessary in the normal fashion but are instead boosters to a spell -- if you dont have one the spell is less powerful.

[Delthrien]

It was my impression that the foci listed weren't necessary (unless from House Verditius) and only served as a way to make it easier to cast the spell (rather than make it weaker without its use...).

Of course, it's been many, many moons since I picked up my copy of the AM rules. I must go peruse now...

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Delthrien
It was my impression that the foci listed weren't necessary (unless from House Verditius) and only served as a way to make it easier to cast the spell (rather than make it weaker without its use...).

Of course, it's been many, many moons since I picked up my copy of the AM rules. I must go peruse now... Thats what Im saying; as a departure from the normal HERO System rules, the FOCI isnt necessary, but the spell works at a lesser rate of power without them.