Sun's damage

[xanatos]

What whas the reasoning for the very high numbers given in Star Hero for the Sun? (page 100-101) The nucleus inflicts 975d6 Killing damage (plus a ton of advantages) per segment.. Isn't 3000 damage per segment a little too much? Using the tables of TUV (or the ones of FRED) the sun should have around 100 BODY (the Sun has a diameter of 700 million hexes, so a Size of 90). So the Sun shouldn't be able to survive to himself for a segment (the attack doesn't have the Personal Immunity)... And the Sun isn't even the hottest star of the galaxy/universe!

[Bartman]

Yep. If I remember correctly this was heavily discussed in the Star Hero forum when the book came out. It obviously doesn't follow the logrithmic damage chart. After some quick tweaking I think I concluded that it should be something closer to 20d6 Killing with only a couple levels each of penetrating and AP. But outside of galactic champions campaigns it is unlikely to come up anyway.

[Old Man]

I think the idea is that at 20d6 Killing, something might survive...

[Vondy]

Sun = Plot Device

Just a theory

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
I think the idea is that at 20d6 Killing, something might survive...

And that is a problem why? It is an established point in both the sci-fi genre and comics that some things can and do survive in the sun. Anything that has the 80+ pts of resistant 4x hardened ED, frankly deserves to survive.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Bartman
And that is a problem why? It is an established point in both the sci-fi genre and comics that some things can and do survive in the sun. Anything that has the 80+ pts of resistant 4x hardened ED, frankly deserves to survive.

Or:

SE: High Pressure
SE: Radiation
SE: Extreme Heat

El Cheapo Strikes Again

Of course, to get ot the sun you need:

1" Flight (constant acceleration + suns gravity, baby)
SE: Vacuum
SE: Cold
LS: Breathing

Of course, to get away from the sun you need:

a) FTL travel, or...
b) CE - Gravity Nullification Field, or...
c) enough flight to break the suns gravity

[dugfromthearth]

the sun does not have personal immunity. it is constantly destroying itself - thus we have the solar wind and solar flares. It is literally blowing itself apart every second, but gravity is pulling it back together at the same time.


As for 20d6k. That does a maximum of 120 body. 70 body on average, but rolls of 90 are not going to be too uncommon. The sun presumably does constant damage, should be 20d6 per segment. So even high damage that is 100 to 1 odds should occur every minute and a half.

I don't have star hero to know what they give sci-fi armor ratings. But heavy armor in Fred is Def 19.

Even something 3 times as tough as heavy armor at Def 60 would still take 10 body every second, assuming it was hardened.

Without enough hardening, the armor would have to be 140 def, 7 times the strength of heavy armor (which would be the difference between plywood and heavy plate) in order to not take dmg on an average roll.

You could of course declare something to be that tough, but no substance is.

The number seems reasonable.

[xanatos]

Even something 3 times as tough as heavy armor at Def 60 would still take 10 body every second, assuming it was hardened.
You are thinking in a linear fashion... 60 DEF is not 3 times stronger than 20 DEF... It's much much much more!

--- Bye

[Armitage]

Originally posted by D-Man
Or:

SE: High Pressure
SE: Radiation
SE: Extreme Heat

El Cheapo Strikes Again



The description of Life Support in Hero 5 specifically says that LS: Extreme Heat won't protect you from being dunked in molten lava, so I doubt it would protect you from the Sun either.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, we are talking about the Sun's nucleus here - the hottest, densest region, where even basic sub-atomic particles can't hold together as atoms. I haven't seen a material or being short of Silver-Age Superman who could survive in that environment. The corona and even surface of the Sun would be relatively less hostile, though, and some ships and entities have been portrayed as being able to enter them.

With that in mind, and FWIW, the Champions genre book offers a sample power construct for cosmic-level beings, "Standing on the Sun," representing near-total immunity to energy damage:

Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (total cost: 60 points) and Armor (0 PD/90 ED), Hardened (x2; +1/2) (total cost: 202 points). Total cost: 262 points.

Personally I'd expect that much protection for Physical Defense as well to be necessary to counteract the effect of gravity and pressure. Of course, you could just allow a Limited Desolidification and call it a day. ;)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Bartman
And that is a problem why? It is an established point in both the sci-fi genre and comics that some things can and do survive in the sun. Anything that has the 80+ pts of resistant 4x hardened ED, frankly deserves to survive.
Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse:
25 DEF, +38 DEF Ablative, +20 DEF Hardened, +25 PD/ED Force Field Ablative, +15 PD/ED Force Field. This vehicle has 123 total DEF and has 250 BODY. If you want this vehicle to be destroyed by the sun you need one which does far more damage than just 20d6 RKA, like a nuke, or 25d6 RKA, like a space torpedo.

But as D-Man said, the sun is really just a plot device. You are talking about something which can burn my skin from 93 million miles away. So while the damage does seem to be over the top, being in the center of the sun should be over the top, unless you are silver aged Superman. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse:
25 DEF, +38 DEF Ablative, +20 DEF Hardened, +25 PD/ED Force Field Ablative, +15 PD/ED Force Field. This vehicle has 123 total DEF and has 250 BODY. If you want this vehicle to be destroyed by the sun you need one which does far more damage than just 20d6 RKA, like a nuke, or 25d6 RKA, like a space torpedo.

But as D-Man said, the sun is really just a plot device. You are talking about something which can burn my skin from 93 million miles away. So while the damage does seem to be over the top, being in the center of the sun should be over the top, unless you are silver aged Superman. :) I disagree. The game mechanics should allow someone to play a character in a high, high end game (cosmic level) that can do this without resorting to hand waves or ludicrous numbers. The reason I dismissed Gurps and Heroes Unlimited was that they didn't have a reasonable "spread" to play at any level of comic book physics. Throwing out that rediculously high number for the sun is unnecessary and doesn't work for superheroes or space opera. It is a genre gaffe.

...and what if I wanted to play someone like a silver-age Superman? (Looks like I would have to ignore a silly ruling in Hero.)

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Monolith
Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse:
25 DEF, +38 DEF Ablative, +20 DEF Hardened, +25 PD/ED Force Field Ablative, +15 PD/ED Force Field. This vehicle has 123 total DEF and has 250 BODY. If you want this vehicle to be destroyed by the sun you need one which does far more damage than just 20d6 RKA, like a nuke, or 25d6 RKA, like a space torpedo.

Um... No you don't. Lets assume that the Apocalypse just appears on surface of the sun. Lets also assume the surface of the sun does 15d6 RKA 2xAP, 2xPenetrating.

Segment 12 the Apocalypse takes 15 Body and the ablative defenses drop to a 15- roll. This continues for 17 seconds until the Apocalypse boils away. And if the ablative defenses fail at all during those 17 seconds than it starts taking 22 body per segment which will shorten the prayers of the crew by a few seconds. Now I don't know about you but that seems perfectly adequate to me. After all the Apocalypse is supposed to be a virtually indestructable super tech starcraft. Having it last a turn to a turn and a half on the surface of the sun seems perfectly reasonable to me. Not that it could ever reach the surface as it would be easily destroyed by the constant bombardment on the way in.

And all this was done without ignoring the logrithmic base that Hero was founded on.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Bartman
Um... No you don't. Lets assume that the Apocalypse just appears on surface of the sun. Lets also assume the surface of the sun does 15d6 RKA 2xAP, 2xPenetrating.
That's very true, but unfortunately that attack does not have enough range to keep the earth warm, and so we all freeze to death. :)

I have no idea why Steve, which ever one, decided to choose that damage level for the sun. I assume he was just trying to show that you are dealing with the most powerful item in our solar system, and as such should be substantially more powerful than anything Dr. Destroyer could whip up in his lab.

Maybe the sun is really just 1 pip rka, MegaScale Range and x3 Penetrating. Who knows. I just know that I happen to like the idea that the sun is all-powerful, but in my games it is just a plot device.

[Arthur]

Because, for all its good points, with FRED they decided to throw out the notion of damage being computable by any relation to real-world physics and just pick numbers out of the air.

IMO, this is the only real failing of FRED, and it could be bad.

One of HERO's aspects that made it a superior game system was an internal logic. +1 DC means x2 linear damage. A logarithmic scale. It's reflected in the STR lifting chart, and used to be followed quite closely with firearms (I did a lot of research on this about ten years ago, and the +1 DC = x2 KE for guns was adhered to).

I get the distinct impression that George MacDonald and his cohorts had a solid grounding in math and physics. They appear to have set out to create a game with an underlying consistent mathematical model. Logarithmic was undoubtedly chosen to cope with the vast power spreads in comic-book stories without huge numbers being necessary (GURPS has the opposite problem: it's a linear system, and large weapons do hundreds or thousands of dice).

It seems that DOJ is only somewhat interested in maintaining the integrity of the mathematical model; they seem to be pushing the system more toward the ad hoc "make 'em up" paradigm.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X
I disagree. The game mechanics should allow someone to play a character in a high, high end game (cosmic level) that can do this without resorting to hand waves or ludicrous numbers. The reason I dismissed Gurps and Heroes Unlimited was that they didn't have a reasonable "spread" to play at any level of comic book physics. Throwing out that rediculously high number for the sun is unnecessary and doesn't work for superheroes or space opera. It is a genre gaffe.

...and what if I wanted to play someone like a silver-age Superman? (Looks like I would have to ignore a silly ruling in Hero.)

Desolidification, Affects Physical (+2), Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (-1), Not Versus Magic (-1/2). 80 Points.

I just became a silver age superman on the cheap. I can be hurt by magic, mental attacks, and cryptonite.

[Zaratustra]

I still don't understand why people complain so much of certain types of damage (falling is the favorite), yet have no problem with their characters taking gunshots and explosions without a flinch. Do your PCs jump off buildings or into stars so frequently that the damage MUST kill them?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Armitage
The description of Life Support in Hero 5 specifically says that LS: Extreme Heat won't protect you from being dunked in molten lava, so I doubt it would protect you from the Sun either.

It would depend on how the GM wanted to handle the SFX and the scenario in question. I don't let Fred dictate my plots to me, or skew my campaigns power levels to ludicrous degrees, or requiring him to purchase once in a lifetime use powers.

If I have a superman clone character (80 ST, 40PD/ED Hardened, Resistent, Full Life Support, etc) and I want to run a plot where he has to fly into the sun to accomplish something (yeah, that's going to happen) I should be able to do so without magnifying my power levels by a factor of 4.

As such, it would be perfectly reasonable for a GM to throw Fred out the window when it becomes a burden instead of a boon. I know rules lawyer types, fanatical canonites, and anal retentive number crunchers don't like that, but its a well known fact that the bell curve is a fairly fragile at the upper end. No, scratch that, it collapses completely and leads to absurd and unmanagable power constructs.

If it were going to happen a lot I might, or I was running a truly silver age game I might require some form of desolidification. Otherwise... in that once in a blue moon scenario, I'd rule the SE Heat did the trick.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by D-Man
Desolidification, Affects Physical (+2), Only To Avoid Damage (-1), Not Versus Magic (-1/2). 80 Points.

I just became a silver age superman on the cheap. I can be hurt by magic, mental attacks, and cryptonite.

A few mistakes and issues here.

1. "Affects Physical" must be applied to your STR and attacks, NOT on the Desolidification itself. Therefore, Silver Age Superman (who can move Earth-size planets) must take the +2 Advantage on his STR of 400 (give or take a hundred). And on his heat vision.

2. "Not vs. Magic". IIRC, Desol has to define a reasonably common attack that will still affect him. Therefore, you define it as "Magic" with no cost break. I think.

3. What about attacks with the Affects Desolid Advantage? An attack that is designed to hurt a ghost can affect SAS. That seems a bit odd.

4. It's "kryptonite".

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man
Desolidification, Affects Physical (+2), Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (-1), Not Versus Magic (-1/2). 80 Points.

I just became a silver age superman on the cheap. I can be hurt by magic, mental attacks, and cryptonite. That's a poor way to simulate it. Supes can get hurt by more than that and every power that Supes would use to affect those around him would have to be bought with a +2 advantage to simulate this sort of invulnerability. That is not what I want out of a "flexible" system.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X
That's a poor way to simulate it. Supes can get hurt by more than that and every power that Supes would use to affect those around him would have to be bought with a +2 advantage to simulate this sort of invulnerability. That is not what I want out of a "flexible" system.

One will note that my actual method for doing so (the one I initially proposed) was that SE Heat would be sufficient due to plot and bell curve considerations (how often are you going to run a game where he flies into the sun, which is a plot device?). Building characters with 140 hardened resistant defenses is possible, but at that point, why bother?

To me flexibility comes from the game masters application of the system to the story and not the opposite. The bell curve works great within a certain range and then breaks down. If you don't want to run games with 3,500 point characters you have to come up with an alternative, or begin applying a goodly degree of gamemaster fiat.

The "deso only versus damage" might not be affected by an attack purchased as "affects deso" since the SFX isn't that he's desolid, but that he's invulnerable. Unless the "affects deso" attack was defined as "ludicrously poweful punches" or "anti-supes ray" it is reasonable to say it wouldn't affect him. Further, in terms of of "affects physical world" modifier, we're both wrong.

My construction was a 4E construction, but the rules say the "only versus damage" limitation wouldn't require "affects physical" at the GMs option (my position is based on reasonable point costs and managable power levels, which presumes the GM will allow a such a construct if its apropos to the genre in question (400 ST comes out at 80d6, which is patently stupid in terms of manageability). You are right about the affected by a reasonable SFX affecting him (and defining it as magic).

As such I would build it as such:

Desolidification, 0 End, Persistent, Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (affected by magic) (-1/2): 60 Points.

Its broader than what's suggested in Fred SFX wise, but for the silver age genre it works without taking us to ludicrous dice pools and point totals land. It also leaves him open to a number of AVLD, NND and mental attacks, which may or may not hurt him based on his Life Support and non-standard defenses (he probably has PowD, but I don't know about others).

[Arthur]

HERO should not have any "absolute invulnerability" at all. The core of the system is that attacks do points of damage and defenses stop points of damage. The only way to have a defense that would stop any number of points would be if the defense cost an infinite number of points.

IOW, it can't be done inside thet set of integers. HERO mechanics exist inside the set of integers.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man
One will note that my actual method for doing so (the one I initially proposed) was that SE Heat would be sufficient due to plot and bell curve considerations (how often are you going to run a game where he flies into the sun, which is a plot device?). Building characters with 140 hardened resistant defenses is possible, but at that point, why bother?

To me flexibility comes from the game masters application of the system to the story and not the opposite. The bell curve works great within a certain range and then breaks down. If you don't want to run games with 3,500 point characters you have to come up with an alternative, or begin applying a goodly degree of gamemaster fiat.

The "deso only versus damage" might not be affected by an attack purchased as "affects deso" since the SFX isn't that he's desolid, but that he's invulnerable. Unless the "affects deso" attack was defined as "ludicrously poweful punches" or "anti-supes ray" it is reasonable to say it wouldn't affect him. Further, in terms of of "affects physical world" modifier, we're both wrong.

My construction was a 4E construction, but the rules say the "only versus damage" limitation wouldn't require "affects physical" at the GMs option (my position is based on reasonable point costs and managable power levels, which presumes the GM will allow a such a construct if its apropos to the genre in question (400 ST comes out at 80d6, which is patently stupid in terms of manageability). You are right about the affected by a reasonable SFX affecting him (and defining it as magic).

As such I would build it as such:

Desolidification, 0 End, Persistent, Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (affected by magic) (-1/2): 60 Points.

Its broader than what's suggested in Fred SFX wise, but for the silver age genre it works without taking us to ludicrous dice pools and point totals land. It also leaves him open to a number of AVLD, NND and mental attacks, which may or may not hurt him based on his Life Support and non-standard defenses (he probably has PowD, but I don't know about others). I understood your take on it concerning life support. I just think there is little reason to defend the dice given the sun. I don't think there is a need to fall back on life support and I don't think there is a need to come up with a contrived desolid. Supes, in my conversions, has about 70 PD/70 ED fully resistant and double hardened. He also has solar absorption (w/serious limitations) funneling into his defenses. The Sun should make him feel reeeal good. A 20d6 RKA sun armor piercing/penetrating seems plenty nasty to me. I'd have to look at the math but I doubt it should go over 30d6 RKA.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X
I understood your take on it concerning life support. I just think there is little reason to defend the dice given the sun. I don't think there is a need to fall back on life support and I don't think there is a need to come up with a contrived desolid. Supes, in my conversions, has about 70 PD/70 ED fully resistant and double hardened. He also has solar absorption (w/serious limitations) funneling into his defenses. The Sun should make him feel reeeal good. A 20d6 RKA sun armor piercing/penetrating seems plenty nasty to me. I'd have to look at the math but I doubt it should go over 30d6 RKA.

Thats the problem with doing straight conversions to a system built on a bell curve. It creates unmanagable characters with things like 70PD/ED and 80d6 punches that render the system unweildy at best, and unworkable at worst.

The difference we have is a philosophical one. I would rather do an abstract conversion and "contrive" a managable defense that keeps the character in a reasonable zone than break the curve. Its Hero's one big weakness - you have to hand wave and declare plot device to make the upper end of the scale work. If contrivance simplifies my life and saves me a headache (and time) I'm all for it.

Personally - superman shouldn't have to go past 40 PD/ED to be properly simulated (though most gamers I've met build higher powered versions of published characters than I do). You consider my solution contrived, I consider yours hard to justify from the bell curve perspective. Fortuanately we don't have to be in eachothers games. Thats the beauty of it. Its a matter of preference.

Personally, I'd just hand wave it and declare the sun to be a plot device (I'm usually shocked when people come up with write ups for these things anyways - they actually have time?). Life's to short.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man
Thats the problem with doing straight conversions to a system built on a bell curve. It creates unmanagable characters with things like 70PD/ED and 80d6 punches that render the system unweildy at best, and unworkable at worst.

The difference we have is a philosophical one. I would rather do an abstract conversion and "contrive" a managable defense that keeps the character in a reasonable zone than break the curve. Its Hero's one big weakness - you have to hand wave and plot device to make the upper end of the scale work. I've always found it problematic. If contrivance simplifies my life and saves me a headache (and time) I'm all for it.

Personally - superman shouldn't have to go past 40 PD/ED. You consider my solution contrived, I consider yours unrealistic from a mechanical perspective. Fortuanately we don't have to be in eachothers games. Thats the beauty of it. Its a matter of preference. Funny, with all the weaknesses Supes has it really shouldn't be a problem for him to have such high defenses. Magic Guy in a Cosmic Level Campaign faces off an enraged Supes affected by red kryptonite (or whichever color made him go evil). Magic Guy has an 18d6 Bolt of Blastigon that strikes Supes. Supes is x2 vulnerable to magic. The Bolt of Blastigon rolls a little higher than average doing 20 body and 68 stun. To Supes that is 40 body and 136 stun. Supes is going to take 66 stun which will knock him down substantially and even daze him. Of course, my Supes has a 10 speed but he can take stun, get dazed, etc.

But what if Supes isn't facing a Magic Guy? Then he might be facing Unified Field Dude who can throw virtually any form of energy. He's studied up on Supes and since Supes has a reputation 14- extreme he knows Supes has problems with red solar radiation and throws that at him. Same basic scenario.

Then there's the guy who found a green rock and gets creative with it...

Then there's Mental Woman. Supes has a load of stun but based on what I've seen in comics I would say his formidable mental defenses are no match for his physical defenses. He gets a vulnerability to ego attacks x2 vs. stun. She's probably got a shot at doing some damage to him if she's built on 700 points. (I like to give that particular vulnerability to lots of bricks that don't have a reason to be particularly more resilient versus mentall attacks.)

Can Supes be beaten? Yes. Is Supes likely to be beaten? No.
He's Superman fer cryin' out loud!

Now, if you're Yellow Sunburst Man whose powers are completely physical and definitely not magical you are definitely going to have a problem with Supes. Oh well.

[Tom McCarthy]

Here's some thoroughly unimpressive numbers.

The sun generates about 3.9 x 10^26 Joules per second.
The sun's diameter is about 1.392 x 10^9 metres. That pegs the surface area at about 2 x 10^18 metres squared. For my hero, floating near the surface and exposing 1 metre squared, I get about 192 MW of radiant energy every second. According to "The Flavor of the Game" (http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/dharchives/flavor.htm), that's only 23 DCs.

Of course, I've over-simplified. I'm ignoring the fact that he's immersed in super-heated gases (5500 degrees Celsius or 9900 degrees F, ballpark), subjected to gravitational stresses, and sucking vacuum. But 23 DCs is a long way from the agreed upon 60 DCs for a nuclear explosion.

Admittedly, this is the corona. The core is about 25% that radius, 1/16th the surface area, and if it's the source of the energy, radiates at a rate closer to 27 or 28 DCs. The temperature's a killer (15.6 million Celsius ?), but it's all hydrogen and helium (no oxygen), so we can safely assume it's a 'dry' heat.

Obviously, there's something drastically wrong with my calculations, since I'm orders of orders of magnitude off from Jim Cambias's numbers in Star Hero.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
Obviously, there's something drastically wrong with my calculations, since I'm orders of orders of magnitude off from Jim Cambias's numbers in Star Hero.
You forgot to take into account the Canadian exchange rates. :)

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
Obviously, there's something drastically wrong with my calculations, since I'm orders of orders of magnitude off from Jim Cambias's numbers in Star Hero.

I've always figured that Jim didn't know or forgot about the logrithmic nature of Hero. After all his bacground is on the GURPs side and 1000d6 would be about right for the Sun in GURPs.

And frankly people tend to overstate the DCs for all attacks over about 10-15 DCs. If you look at FREd. All the hand guns and rifles follow the logrithmic rule. Then for some reason it jumps. The Abrams gun should be around 5-6d6 killing instead of the 8d6 Steve gave it. By the log rule nukes should be between about 30-40 DCs rather than the 60 they were given. And frankly that bugs me. High level supers should be able to take a nuke. I can think of several who have done so. Heck, hundreds of thousand survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki (although not unprotected at 'ground zero'). By exagerating the strength of these attacks you exagerate the defenses you need to defend against them. And whenyou do that you lose one of the great strenghts of Hero, the ability to cover such a huge range of genres with a single ruleset.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Bartman
Heck, hundreds of thousand survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki (although not unprotected at 'ground zero').

I like your point concerning exaggerated effects and sticking to the log effects. In some cases one does have to consider some of the other rules impacting such as range. In order to make a 120mm penetrator round for a tank I had to make it a 12d6 RKA decreased with range. That allowed me to reach out 1800 hexes with sufficient effect at the middle ranges. (3dk at max range, about 5-6d6 at the mid-range which seems to work well.)

About Hiroshima and Nagasaki - as one can see in the pictures of the striken cities almost no structure was left without massive damage. Survivor tales that I know of were of people in cellars with a good surrounding of dirt. That would stop all the alpha and beta particles. The Gamma particles, though, are a different matter and would penetrate quite a distance. While there were thousands of survivors the Gamma (or Ionized Radiation) left many with long term radiation sickness and eventually cancer. Hero does a great job of letting us represent this. Gradual Effect 5 years (about -3 limitation). (The Gradual Effect listed here is probably too long actually. Many near the hypocenter that survived the blast died within 6 weeks.)

Your point was that nuclear weapons of the size used in Japan don't destroy everything - it is possible to survive. I think that is a good point. Here is a great site on survivor stories: Voice of Hibakusha (http://www.inicom.com/hibakusha/)

[Gary]

Nuclear explosions of 30-40 DCs, or tank MA's of 15-18 DCs are silly in a game system where a terminal velocity fall is 30 DC.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Gary
Nuclear explosions of 30-40 DCs, or tank MA's of 15-18 DCs are silly in a game system where a terminal velocity fall is 30 DC.

That just means that the falling rules should be modified as well. A quick horseback estimate:

Terminal velocity is rougly around 180 MPH, IIRC. That's about 80 m/s, or about 1000 m/Turn = 500" per Turn. Applying a "standard effect" rule (that's what I use, anyway) of SPD 4 for translating RW effects, that's about 125" per phase. Divide by 3 for a Move-Through, and you get about 40d N.

Hmmm. A little analysis shows the problem: Move-Through damage is proportional to the square root of KE, since KE is proportional to the square of velocity. It is therefore on a curve that is not linear, but goes up faster than the geometric expansion of other types of KE damage.

Man, once you open a can of worms, you need a bigger can to re-can them.

Even if you go with SPD 6 as a standard effect, you still wind up with 30d N.

I was rather hoping that this calculation would yield something along the lines of 20d. Silly me.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Gary
Nuclear explosions of 30-40 DCs, or tank MA's of 15-18 DCs are silly in a game system where a terminal velocity fall is 30 DC.

David: Hello, my name is David and I'm a hand-waver.

Hand Wavers Support Group: Hi Dave!

David: I've been hand-waving upper end mechanics and declaring plot device caveats for thirteen years now. It all started when I realized hero's mechanics were set on a bell curve, but their supplements, and many gamers, didn't adhere to this rule on a consistent basis.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Arthur
That just means that the falling rules should be modified as well. A quick horseback estimate:

Terminal velocity is rougly around 180 MPH, IIRC. That's about 80 m/s, or about 1000 m/Turn = 500" per Turn. Applying a "standard effect" rule (that's what I use, anyway) of SPD 4 for translating RW effects, that's about 125" per phase. Divide by 3 for a Move-Through, and you get about 40d N.

Hmmm. A little analysis shows the problem: Move-Through damage is proportional to the square root of KE, since KE is proportional to the square of velocity. It is therefore on a curve that is not linear, but goes up faster than the geometric expansion of other types of KE damage.

Man, once you open a can of worms, you need a bigger can to re-can them.

Even if you go with SPD 6 as a standard effect, you still wind up with 30d N.

I was rather hoping that this calculation would yield something along the lines of 20d. Silly me.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

You could just assume a fall does maximum damage (it doesn't miss and hits everything).

20DC would be 40 Body. Certain death, even for the hardiest of men!

[Bartman]

Originally posted by D-Man
David: Hello, my name is David and I'm a hand-waver.

Hand Wavers Support Group: Hi Dave!

David: I've been hand-waving upper end mechanics and declaring plot device caveats for thirteen years now. It all started when I realized hero's mechanics were set on a bell curve, but their supplements, and many gamers, didn't adhere to this rule on a consistent basis.

Well what's the fun in that? Why, that's downright sane and reasonable. I therefore disregard it out of hand completely. :D

But you have a good point D-Man. I remember a growth based character I made back in 3rd Ed. Back then growth was based on a logrithmic scale but the stretching associated with it was on a linear scale. At low levels his arms apparently grew faster than the rest of him. At mid levels it was about the same. But at the high levels he would be hundreds of meters tall but would only have arms a couple dozen meters long. In fact strictly speaking he shouldn't have even been able to reach up and touch his own head. So there has always been a mix of both of scales in the system since the begining. I just hope with enough grousing we'll get Steve to explicitly follow the logrithmic format and change the few things that don't follow it, to do so.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by D-Man
You could just assume a fall does maximum damage (it doesn't miss and hits everything).

Skydivers have survived chute failure from several hundred feet. One man I saw survived a 4 story fall because he landed on a stopsign and was arrested by the pole impaling him. I don't think he was perfectly well after that but... yeah he lived.

Falling damage has been brought up a bunch of times as unrealistic. The biggest problem is that if you try to do the fantastic the reality of life gets in the way everytime. You are better off chaining reality to the radiator in the basement and ignoring its cries while you game. :p

[SSJ Archon]

While people may have survived the bombs dropped in japan, would they survive todays nukes? The things were like 50 Kilotons, and todays can be up to 300 Megatons! Maybe the nuke listed is modern? Could superman survive one of those at point blank? Even though he is superman, i mean, thats 300 megatons! That will take out a state 3 times faster than the speed of sound can travel across it! And lets not even go to antimatter! Lets see him try to catch some of that! The sun should be about 3 times worse than a 500 megaton nuke, at the center. The temperature is about the same, but now its not conveyed in one Atm, but in what maybe 20? Like sound and other chain reactions, that makes it more powerful. I mean at that level no known substance can even come close to surviving, and to produce a field effect to protect you, you'd need another star to power it! Lets not even mention that that would not be healthy for the Sun.

[Lord Liaden]

Bartman, I hope you don't mind, but since the discussion has brought in logarithmic progression of damage in HERO, and the old DH article "The Flavor of the Game" was cited, I thought people might appreciate seeing your fine "Damage Class to Real World Conversion" chart from the old boards. I've found it to be a useful guideline:

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/HeroSystemDiscussion/000836.html

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Nuclear explosions of 30-40 DCs, or tank MA's of 15-18 DCs are silly in a game system where a terminal velocity fall is 30 DC. You are right. Guess I'll have to fix terminal velocity in my games. Or I won't worry about it because it doesn't annoy me the way that having to build "cheat" powers for Superman does.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
You are right. Guess I'll have to fix terminal velocity in my games. Or I won't worry about it because it doesn't annoy me the way that having to build "cheat" powers for Superman does.

If you want to "fix" terminal velocity to match the rest of the system, then a terminal velocity fall from a 100 kg man would be about 4 DC more than a .50 cal mg round. A .50 cal is 9 DC, so a terminal velocity fall would be 13 DC. Every doubling or halving of velocity would add or subtract 2 DC.

Thus falling damage would be:

1" 3 DC
2" 5 DC
3-4" 7 DC
5-8" 9 DC
9-16" 11 DC
17-32" 13 DC
33-64" 15 DC

Etc.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Bartman, I hope you don't mind, but since the discussion has brought in logarithmic progression of damage in HERO, and the old DH article "The Flavor of the Game" was cited, I thought people might appreciate seeing your fine "Damage Class to Real World Conversion" chart from the old boards. I've found it to be a useful guideline:

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/HeroSystemDiscussion/000836.html

No of course I don't mind. And thank you I never can find any of the stuff from the old boards.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by SSJ Archon
While people may have survived the bombs dropped in japan, would they survive todays nukes? The things were like 50 Kilotons, and todays can be up to 300 Megatons! Maybe the nuke listed is modern? Could superman survive one of those at point blank? Even though he is superman, i mean, thats 300 megatons! That will take out a state 3 times faster than the speed of sound can travel across it! And lets not even go to antimatter! Lets see him try to catch some of that! The sun should be about 3 times worse than a 500 megaton nuke, at the center. The temperature is about the same, but now its not conveyed in one Atm, but in what maybe 20? Like sound and other chain reactions, that makes it more powerful. I mean at that level no known substance can even come close to surviving, and to produce a field effect to protect you, you'd need another star to power it! Lets not even mention that that would not be healthy for the Sun.

First- The largest bomb ever exploded in the whole history of mankind was the Tsar Bomba. It had an effect of 50 Megatons and was done only as a proof of concept by the Soviets. Currently the single largest warhead in the world is the 4-5 Mt warhead on the Chinese DF-5A. But that is missleading as the vast majority of warheads are in the 100kt range. So I don't know where you got your numbers of 300Mt and 500Mt weapons but there have never been any and never will be.

Second- Who is talking about reality? You mention that no known substance can survive in the sun. Well yes you are right. But we are talking about comics and Sci-fi here. It is most likely that we will never make a material that is stronger than the equivalant to 25-30 def, ever. What does that have to do with the survival capabilitys of completely impossible characters like Superman?

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Arthur
That just means that the falling rules should be modified as well. A quick horseback estimate:

Terminal velocity is rougly around 180 MPH, IIRC. That's about 80 m/s, or about 1000 m/Turn = 500" per Turn. Applying a "standard effect" rule (that's what I use, anyway) of SPD 4 for translating RW effects, that's about 125" per phase. Divide by 3 for a Move-Through, and you get about 40d N.

Hmmm. A little analysis shows the problem: Move-Through damage is proportional to the square root of KE, since KE is proportional to the square of velocity. It is therefore on a curve that is not linear, but goes up faster than the geometric expansion of other types of KE damage.

Man, once you open a can of worms, you need a bigger can to re-can them.

Even if you go with SPD 6 as a standard effect, you still wind up with 30d N.

I was rather hoping that this calculation would yield something along the lines of 20d. Silly me.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

I believe your mistake was that you should have gone with a speed of 12 as the earth is always moving.

That would make it closer to 10 or 13 DC a perfectly reasonable damage level considering falling should be killing damage any ways.

I worked in a rehabilitation hospital in Albuquerque were we often had fall victims and even once had man who’s Para shoot did not open. There is a butt load of bone and organ damage associated with falling (i.e. killing) a 10DC killing attack will likely have you dieing soon after impact but it would still be possible to get "lucky" and live withy a couple of dozen broken bone.

The system I have fallen on is just looking at the STR chart for nukes and saying a Nuke dose killing damage based on its size and adding the Armor piercing advantage to it. If I wanted perfect reality I would go out side but I don't so I play a game were a man can take a nuke to the chest. and live like the hulk did back in his pantheon days. Or “Supes” has done on more than one occasion.


The surface of the sun according to "Ask.com" is 6000 degrees Celcius. I don't see it as any more unreasonable for a character to be able tolerate that than I do for him to throw fire from his eyes.

[SSJ Archon]

Those numbers are old, and I don't remember where i got them. Though, there is no reason a nuclear weapon couldn't do that. The upper limit for nuclear fission is around 600 Megatons, and for Fusion its about 2 Gigatons. I'm getting my major in nuclear physics, so i'm pretty sure on those. Thank you for correcting my old numbers, (though I do remember them building more powerful weapons, not nessesarily testing them.)

Antimatter is the wave of the future when is comes to big bombs, though they're not really needed anymore.

It has nothing to do with silver age superman. I never liked him in the first place. There are ceramic theoretical compounds which could take up 25,000 F, but after that you need magnetic fields or something to make an armor strong enough. Maybe some matter from a neutron star.

The point is, weapons kinda slide off of logarithmic, and armor doesn't. Thats the problem.

[pinecone]

Just jumpin in to up my post count...I don't beleive you need to make falling damage into killing...the avg person only has 2 PD so a 12D6 fall does an Average of 10 body! Seems plenty lethal to me....I always figured they upped terminal velocity to 30D6 so they could scare Supers not because it was Real but because it was Dramatic......

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by pinecone
Just jumpin in to up my post count...I don't beleive you need to make falling damage into killing...the avg person only has 2 PD so a 12D6 fall does an Average of 10 body! Seems plenty lethal to me....I always figured they upped terminal velocity to 30D6 so they could scare Supers not because it was Real but because it was Dramatic......

That is pbobly the whole truth of it.

All tyo often have game designers made a rules change simply to create a player intimidating situation.

Realism is often over looked by me as a GM in order to create the "Propper" feel of a situation and maybe that is what Steve was looking to do here.

[Gary]

Originally posted by pinecone
Just jumpin in to up my post count...I don't beleive you need to make falling damage into killing...the avg person only has 2 PD so a 12D6 fall does an Average of 10 body! Seems plenty lethal to me....I always figured they upped terminal velocity to 30D6 so they could scare Supers not because it was Real but because it was Dramatic......

Except that people will just walk off 10 story falls with just bruises. And virtually everybody could survive a terminal velocity fall if they receive medical attention within 2 minutes of the fall. Not nearly lethal enough for falling damage.

If you want falling damage to "feel" real without skewing the rest of the system, then the fix would be to lower the body for the average person to 5 along with logrithmic falling damage. That would also have the side benefit of making normal weaponry more lethal and realistic.

[Lord Liaden]

I've found it useful to roll for Hit Locations in landings from uncontrolled falls. It allows for both instantaneous death for most normals, and for "miraculous" survivals, depending on the roll. Assuming you want either possibility, of course.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Arthur
[B

I get the distinct impression that George MacDonald and his cohorts had a solid grounding in math and physics. They appear to have set out to create a game with an underlying consistent mathematical model. Logarithmic was undoubtedly chosen to cope with the vast power spreads in comic-book stories without huge numbers being necessary (GURPS has the opposite problem: it's a linear system, and large weapons do hundreds or thousands of dice).

It seems that DOJ is only somewhat interested in maintaining the integrity of the mathematical model; they seem to be pushing the system more toward the ad hoc "make 'em up" paradigm. [/B]

I'd have to agree with Arthur here. My research during the 4th edition of Hero came up with the same conclusions he did (+1DC=X2KE/+2Def=X2protection) and this was reflected in the damage of many of the weapons in published supplements during that era.

In the 5th edition, the numbers are close to that model, not exact, as they almost always were in the 4th edition, but on the high end of the scale, the 5th edition seems to ignore this concept completely, even though the system works (nearly) perfectly when the model is adhered to.

Its not a big deal to me though, as I generaly have my own way of doing things in any system I run, and I have no problem with changing published stats to something that fits my perception of the system better...

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Bartman
No of course I don't mind. And thank you I never can find any of the stuff from the old boards.

The table looks interesting. Could you further define what you mean by point, 1-hex and explosion in the table?

For example, the Point column doesn't even see any value until DC12.

Thanks

[Bartman]

Originally posted by CorpCommander
The table looks interesting. Could you further define what you mean by point, 1-hex and explosion in the table?

For example, the Point column doesn't even see any value until DC12.

Sure. Frankly the three different numbers for TNT are because of the assumption used in the rule books that TNT is always area effect/explosion. Because of this the official numbers for TNT don't match up with the muzzle velocity of the guns. In fact they are 12DCs different. This makes sense as the energy of an explosion is more spread out. However there are a number of sittuations where it is possible to get TNT to act over a smaller area than an explosion. Shaped charges are one example.

So the point value is what the equivalant energy of TNT would be if were somehow shaped, focused and directed into a single point. Basically it is like a bullet. A gun focuses all the energy of a small amount of explosive and imparts that energy to a bullet. Another idea would be something too small to make an 'explosion', like a heavy firecraker, but could do some damage if someone held it in their hand.

1 Hex represents an explosion which is contained within a 2 meter sphere. An example for this case would be like shaped charges which focuses all its energy into a bank vault.

And the reason I didn't go below 1/64th of a pound of TNT is that it didn't seem likely that anyone would need or use less than 7 grams or 110 grains worth of TNT. And second I had already formated my fixed width table and 1/125th was a character to long and it messed up my formatting, so I removed anything with more characters than 1/64th.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by SSJ Archon
Those numbers are old, and I don't remember where i got them. Though, there is no reason a nuclear weapon couldn't do that. The upper limit for nuclear fission is around 600 Megatons, and for Fusion its about 2 Gigatons. I'm getting my major in nuclear physics, so i'm pretty sure on those. Thank you for correcting my old numbers, (though I do remember them building more powerful weapons, not nessesarily testing them.)

What is possible and what is practical are two very different things. And I believe you are right about the theoretical max for each type of weapon. The problem is that such big nukes would be somewhere between the size of a house and an apartment building. They become far to bulky to be usable weapons. Even the Tsar Bomba was too big to be made deliverable.

The second problem with really big weapons is that somewhere around 10 Megatons they begin to compress the air so powerfully that a wall of compressed air begins to 'contain' the blast to a limited degree. The weak point in this wall is up (lower natural atomospheric preasure). So with larger blasts there is a natural tendency to direct much of their power up and away from the target. So you get a situation where two 5 Mt warheads are better than one 10 Mt warhead.


Antimatter is the wave of the future when is comes to big bombs, though they're not really needed anymore.
Eventually maybe. But unless something has happend I haven't heard about, it still takes a month to make 10 atoms of the stuff. And we still have no way to store it. So it is likely a century or more away as a viable weapon.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by Bartman
But unless something has happend I haven't heard about, it still takes a month to make 10 atoms of the stuff. And we still have no way to store it. So it is likely a century or more away as a viable weapon. Fermilab produces antiprotons (basically an ionized anti-hydrogen nucleus) in medium-energy collisions of protons with a lithium target at the rate of 50 billion antiprotons per hour!. The antiprotons so produced are stored in the Antiproton Source Containment Area (a circular magnetic confinement torus) until needed for high-energy experiments in the Tevatron collider.

The cost? Taking average Fermilab operating expenses into account, it cost about $1.00 (yes, just one dollar) per 6 million antiprotons produced.

Now it does indeed take more effort to make atoms of anti-hydrogn, and you can't keep hold of them, since these atoms are electrically neutral and not readily subject to magnetic confinement...meaning that once atoms are produced, they tend to leave the confinement ring and annihilate with ordinary matter.

Clearly working with ionized anti-nuclei is much easier, and also much less expensive.

[Bartman]

Cool! I didn't know that. I guess I have fallen behind, my last physics class was about 10 years ago.

Of course even at 6 million anti-protons per dollar it would take $100 quadrillion to make a full gram of anti-protons. and $10 quintillion to make enough to have a single 1Mt warhead. So I think good old fusion and fission warheads are going to remain more cost effective for some time yet. :D

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Bartman
Of course even at 6 million anti-protons per dollar it would take $100 quadrillion to make a full gram of anti-protons. and $10 quintillion to make enough to have a single 1Mt warhead.

Don't forget, those prices are at full retail. When you buy in such large quantities and present your Sam's Club membership card you can get some pretty big discounts!

[Dr. Anomaly]

If the mass of $1.00 worth of antiprotons (at these rates) were converted completely into usable energy, it would net us 1/1000 of a joule -- enough to heat 1/4 of a gram of water by 1/1000 of a degree C.

This means it would cost more than the current U.S. government's annual budget to generate enough energy this way to light a 60-watt light bulb.

Yeah, though we can produce antimatter at will these days, and though antimatter is the most destructive substance known, the trivial quantities produced do indeed mean that good ol' fission & fusion will remain much more practical for weapons for some time to come, barring a massive breakthrough of some kind. :)

[Farkling]

"The nucleus of the sun where atomic structure begins to break down"
Sounds like a transform or X-Dim movement doesn't it?
Perhaps the nucleus of the sun needs a transform that slowly vaporizes the character...how many supers show up at the sun with over 20 Power Defense? Or, perhaps a Drain against energy defense listedout as "atomic destabilization" or "bond saturation" ... now vehicles and objects are far more vulnerable than the heroes...


Extra Dim movement and Summon are rapidly becoming the most often used powers in the event of a modelling breakdown...I am leading the one man campaign to avoid their use in those cirmumstances. :D

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Farkling
"The nucleus of the sun where atomic structure begins to break down"
Sounds like a transform or X-Dim movement doesn't it?
Perhaps the nucleus of the sun needs a transform that slowly vaporizes the character...how many supers show up at the sun with over 20 Power Defense? Or, perhaps a Drain against energy defense listedout as "atomic destabilization" or "bond saturation" ... now vehicles and objects are far more vulnerable than the heroes...


Extra Dim movement and Summon are rapidly becoming the most often used powers in the event of a modelling breakdown...I am leading the one man campaign to avoid their use in those cirmumstances. :D

I'm telling you its all SFX. :D

Supes Player: The Sun shouldn't hurt me!

Alarmed GM: Why not?!

Supes Player: Because its my SFX!

Irritated GM: What SFX would that be, exactly?

Smug Supes Player: I'm SUPER.

[lemming]

Originally posted by D-Man
Smug Supes Player: I'm SUPER.

Today on Affirmations:

[SSJ Archon]

Why would a nuke have to be so large? If you compress the uranium/plutonium, you can get a smaller volume. Of course, you'll have to keep it very cold or it will go nuclear all by itself. Using liquid helium, you could build a really powerful weapon. You can also use a mirrior trap to store the energy needed for detonation, so you won't need any bulky lasers. Of course with a mirrior trap and liquid He, your bomb will not have a very long shelf life, but hey. Boom.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by SSJ Archon
Why would a nuke have to be so large? If you compress the uranium/plutonium, you can get a smaller volume. Of course, you'll have to keep it very cold or it will go nuclear all by itself. Using liquid helium, you could build a really powerful weapon. You can also use a mirrior trap to store the energy needed for detonation, so you won't need any bulky lasers. Of course with a mirrior trap and liquid He, your bomb will not have a very long shelf life, but hey. Boom.
I think you just answered your own question. Such a construction is innately unstable, and rather more costly than more conventional nukes. A configuration like this is impractical in the extreme for something that will in all likelihood need to sit on the shelf for decades. It is expensive, high maintenance and unsafe. In the long term, given the rate of use for nukes, it seems far more likely that one would cook off and destroy its constructor's territory than it would be actually used against an enemy. In all a weaponizing nation is far better off pursuing an option of more smaller, distributed, low maintenance, stable weapons than a handful of huge, concentrated, high maintenance, unstable ones.

[SSJ Archon]

Scott, you just don't get it do yeah?

Its a weapon that is built as needed. Like against a super or something. Theres nothing better than watching a super trying to take on an entire nation, let alone the world.

Superman: "You can't even hurt me!"
Guy at bullhorn: "Oh yeah? FIRE!"
All of worlds ICBM's fire off at the correct timing to hit superman all at once.
Superman: "Your weapons are useless!"
BOOM
Guy at bullhorn: "Did I forget to mention they had kryptonite tips?"

[Bartman]

Originally posted by SSJ Archon
Scott, you just don't get it do yeah?
Scott? Who the heck is Scott? I can only assume that you are refering to me, as I am the only one responding to you. Let me assure you that I have not in 32+ years of existance ever been known as 'Scott.'


Its a weapon that is built as needed. Like against a super or something. Theres nothing better than watching a super trying to take on an entire nation, let alone the world.

Well sure a super villian with 'super-science' can do just about anything. However this is the very first time you have mentioned that you were discussing comic book physics rather than real world. So no, I guess I just didn't get it.

[SSJ Archon]

Scott is a refrence to austin powers. You've got to do things super evil genius style, even if its not practical!

A real nation could build it, its just not practical. It's possible though.

[Tech]

This is an amusing forum. I don't think everyone will ever come to an agreement on the sun's damage. Some leave it as a plot device (as I do) and others try to significantly, realistically and mathematically figure out the damage, which I have no problem with either. It's cool seeing figures and equations over my head. :D In those cases though, reality must be used to at least start the fictional damage or else you don't have a basis to start calculating on.

No game system will ever be perfect and Hero Games is not exception. However, it certainly does a pretty good job at covering almost everything. If you want something to do massive gobs of damage (ex. 50d6, 80d6, 976d6, etc), I don't know if this is the game system for it. IMHO, the system can handle your 12d6 EB or 18d6 Haymaker well-enough but starting to throw out 160d6 or 976d6 or whatever for the sun and it's, well, it's needless.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that after a certain point, having a power/attack/whatever with gobs of dice simply becomes a plot device. I don't feel like trying to take into account all the real-life aspects of physics because the games are fictional.

[Patriot]

Well you should have all your answers after the massive onslaught we just endured from our very own sun!!!

As for me, I am unscathed;)


Those were some awe inspiring pics!!