Newbie DM + Newbie Players = Where in the heck to start?

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Greetings, along time ago on a message board that's been archived at the bottom of the page, I came in and asked some questions about getting started in Champs. Unfortunately, those plans never came to fruition so while I appreciate the help I received I never got to put it to good use.

But fear not true believers, I have gotten a small group together and we're going to actually get into Champs. So here comes my dilemma.

None of us have ever played in the Hero system and, currently, I'm the only one that owns any books. I'm sure the latter will be remedied soon, but I'm trying to figure out the best way to pass along info to my future group while also learning the system.

Here's what I currently own:

1. FREd (obviously)
2. Champions
3. Champions Universe
4. Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks
5. Millenium City

I thought about picking up the UNTIL Super Powers Database, but I'm afraid that it would become a crutch for building powers instead of a guide.

So what do you fine folks think would be the best way to start introducing folks to the game? Just jump on in with our own, probably poorly done, character builds. Use some of the pre-built 350 point characters and villians just to learn how the game is run? Something else that TKD probably never considered?

[CrosshairCollie]

Welcome aboard!

I got lucky when I started ... the game was well-established, many veteran players, so I could just ask people what was going on between turns and be sure I got good answers. :) I also just 'pitched' my character to the GM, and we worked together to make it, though he did all the math and I just answered questions.

That said, I would, in fact, recommend using the extant characters to start with, just for 2 or 3 game sessions while everybody gets used to the system ... I'd even advise using The Champions, as provided in the book. They're good (if not stellar) characters, with non-convoluted backgrounds, uncomplicated powers, and already exist as a team.

Run a simple session or two first; a 'danger room' scenario with robots (take some characters from CKC and change kills to normal/stun only attacks), slowly and step-by-step, to get people used to combat.

Explain things as you go! That has maddened me when learning new game systems (when I don't own the books) for years! For example, don't just say "Roll 3d6 to hit" and say whether he hit or miss. Talk them through the process ... and I recommend providing 'cheat sheets' of frequently needed formulas or charts, both for yourself and your players (like the to-hit formula).

[TheQuestionMan]

Congratulations TDK , welcome to the Illustrious Order of Herofiles (teaches secret hand shake and code phrases) . A must for any new GM and Players is the HERO System Resource Kit . It provides all the tables you need at a glance and condensed version of the HERO System rules , plus BATTLEMAPS and Cardboard stand Ups for your use .

I've found it invaluable . Show them all the 350pt. Characters and tell them to pick and modify to taste . Or create their own if they think they have a good grasp of the rules .

Next start off with a prologue adventure that establishes the Theme/Flavor you wish the campaign have .

Then it's clobber'in time .

The Great Supervillan Contest is a great lead into it . Basically a Master Villian offer the Super Villians a prize . They must challenge and defeat the Superheroes in personal combat . Mean the Heroes are under near constant attacks by Villians they've never even heard of or met . One of their defeated foes tells them the truth and leads them to the Master Villian and a final show down with the whole team and other Heroes ariving to occupy the Supervillians , while the PC Heroes confront the master villian in a battle royal .

Lots of fun and role playing for every one .

Cheers

[Lord Liaden]

In general, it's best to start simple: don't use any of the optional Combat Maneuvers, or any of the powers marked with "Yield" or "Stop" signs. Build your characters without extensive Power Frameworks if you can help it (avoid Variable Power Pools altogether until you're more comfortable with the system). You might also consider leaving off keeping track of Endurance until at least after your first couple of combats.

Put your first characters through a couple of sample combats before actually starting campaign play; combat's the most complex part of the game. That process will also help highlight any potential problems with the characters that you might want to adjust.

I would heartily recommend picking up the UNTIL Superpowers Database. Rather than a crutch, I find that it actually inspires concepts for characters. There's so much to mix and match and fine-tune to taste that you can get really creative in a fraction of the time that's usual for character creation.

You might get some help out of this thread of Game Master's tips, which emphasises GMing HERO System:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3304

Most importantly, feel free to post here again with any questions you may have. This board community is a helpful bunch.

Welcome to HERO, and great gaming! :)

[Tae Kwon Dan]

I appreciate the welcome. :D

You guys were extremely helpful when I was hear a long time ago. (Aside, big thumbs up to whoever actually archived all of the old threads. I found all of my old topics so I didn' have to repost the questions I had forgotten answers to.)

I'll reconsider the UNTIL book, it's not like the price tag is unreasonable (a trend I've noticed in all Hero books :) ). Thanks for the link Liaden, I'm reading it right now.

[Lord Liaden]

T.K.D., if you'd like to sample the sort of power constructs featured in the UNTIL Superpowers Database, you could check the online supplement to the USPD (contributed by your fellow HERO gamers) here:

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/index.htm

[Tae Kwon Dan]

:cool:

One of my PC's is talking about having a Molecular Control character so seeing a few powers in there was helpful.

[Killer Shrike]

Contact Steve Long and see if you can still get in on the Sidekick Playtest....Sidekick is a pared down version of the rules intended to be ideal for starting players like you and your nascent group of future HEROphiles. :)

[Blue]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Contact Steve Long and see if you can still get in on the Sidekick Playtest....Sidekick is a pared down version of the rules intended to be ideal for starting players like you and your nascent group of future HEROphiles. :) Took the words right out of my... fingertips(?)

Sidekick is designed exactly for the situation you are talking about. Last word is that he had an overwhelming response so he may have closed this up, but e-mail the man. I think it's Steve L @ Hero Games.Com (without any spaces).

[Vondy]

It depends what genre you want to run.

If you aren't absolutely set on running supers right off the bat I would recommend starting with a heroic level modern day game (one or two story arcs) with characters built on 75+75 with normal characteristic maxima and point-free equipment.

I say this because:

1) It simplifies initial character design and speeds up system assimilation

2) It provides perspective in terms of power levels when it comes time to build super-heroes (players will have a more reasonable idea of what constitutes "super")

3) You save a million headaches when it comes time to run another heroic level game - because champions players who start out with supers are the absolute worst when it comes to "scaled down" power settings (sniveling whiners!)

4) It provides you, the GM, with an idea about how things work without worrying about the multitude of variables that come from super-powers, magic, and the like.

Just my 2 Active Points

[Monolith]

If you are new to the system and just wanting to learn the game a bit then I would suggest you just run a couple of game sessions where the players use the Champions from the book. Maybe play 2 or 3 games and have the players play different members of the Champions for each game. That way you and the players both get a feel for the game, and different types of characters, before becoming bogged down in character creation (clearly the hardest part of the game).

People tend to forget that the reason the Champions are in the Genre Book is so they can be used as sample/demo characters. Use them, abuse them, and then work with your players to make the type of characters they will want to play in a permanent campaign.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Contact Steve Long and see if you can still get in on the Sidekick Playtest....Sidekick is a pared down version of the rules intended to be ideal for starting players like you and your nascent group of future HEROphiles. :)

It sounds cool, but at the same time my ego is fighting my logic region for dominance. I mean the Sidekicks don't even get to go to the same superhero bar as everybody else. ;)

I'll look for the thread though.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
Run a simple session or two first; a 'danger room' scenario with robots

This is a good idea. A few Danger Room sessions will give the players a decent idea of how the game works and how stuff like Knock Back works, etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Dan
It sounds cool, but at the same time my ego is fighting my logic region for dominance. I mean the Sidekicks don't even get to go to the same superhero bar as everybody else. ;)

I'll look for the thread though. Yes, but the Altar Boys of today are the Confessors of tommorow.

[Ghost who Walks]

When I started my own campaign, I used some of the sample characters as NPC Heroes.

Basicly, I said there was a law on the books limitiing the size of a super-hero team. Have more than 6, and you start paying huge insurance rates. :)

So to get around this, teams organized satellite teams. This wa a collection of new heroes, with an NPC veteran to lead them while they got started. The reason teams did it? Merchandizing money was big.

This provided a reason to get together, gave me a mouthpiece to tell the new players what to do, and provided a contact (the sponsoring superteam) if the heroes got into to much trouble. Their headquarters was an old fire station, which later was destroyed by a vengeful VIPER nest leader. They managed to save the firepole. :)

After that, for new players, I let them run the team mascot for a few sessions, until they wanted to make their own character. The Team mascot was an artificially intelligent German Shepherd with cybernetic implants, named Stalin.

The team is now at the power level where they are organizing their own satellite teams. During team meetings, they get to talk about how well their action figures are selling. :) Marketing tells them that a public fight with Durak will boost their sales.

Also, talk with your players, find what they like about the genre, and how they expect to play their characters. This will help set the tone for your campaign.

[RealmForge]

I would recommend contacting Steve Long anyway. While I can't go into any detail whatsoever, I can tell you that the name "Sidekick" is a touch misleading.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Thanks Ghost Who Walks, very helpful.

We're actually having a meeting this weekend to start just playing around with the system. I gave them all a rundown on archetypes and asked them to start thinking about character types. I gave them what I wanted to see characters. (I want to work with them of course, but it is my game so what I like has to carry a little weight ;))

I also pointed out to not get too hung up on exactly imitating a favored comic or movie character as their current incarncation is, most likely, not buildable on 350 point.

We're all long time gamers so it will be interesting to see what they come up with for their heroes.

[Killer Shrike]

Veteran HERO players dont let Newbie HERO player crash & burn the first try out of the gate :)

In other words, I think I should interject here -- having all your players show up to make characters in the HERO System is a sure recipe for disaster, IMO.

Particularly if you only have 1 copy of FRED

And most particularly if only you the GM are somewhat familiar with the rules and none of the players are.

Thats like mixing Dynamite and Fire. Bad combo.

Each character will take you between 1 and 2 hours to design starting out, and thats if your players are reasonably intelligent people with cognitive thinking skills, solid decision making ability, and the capacity to express themselves clearly and succintly.


Once you get into the system this speeds up, but its still not wise to try to do it as part of a group session -- too many people end up sitting around waiting for their turn. Some player will want something outre or difficult to do by the rules -- especially if you arent yet wise to the hidden ways of the HERO System master.

Honestly, you are far far far better off running a scenario with pregen characters (like the Champions team or a random assortment of 350 point characters from CKC (just change the names and backgrounds if you intend to carry forward continuity and dont want to use "named villains" in this fashion)).

Let the players pick new characters if they are not satisfied with their initial selection. Some adventuresome players will get brave and decided to puzzle out their powers. This will lead them to want to change or add powers. The more initiative taking among them will approach you in one fashion or another to make a new character. Either theyll want to borrow the book, get their own, or sit down with you to work on one.

[phydaux]

Here's a little something to tell your players from a Vet. player's perspective -

When you make a character, you always start with the character concept in mind. That's a given. Now, most players ALREADY HAVE a character concept in mind - their favorite comic book hero.

The think to do is, DON'T make THAT hero FIRST. Have them make some generic, basic hero that is totally differant from their favorite hero. They can then use this "throw away" character for a few sessions until they have the "feel" of the game, genera and campaign. THEN they can make their primary character.

When they do it this way, their primary, "favorite" character will end up being much more well-rounded and three dimentional, and more fully represented by the game system. Even better, they will understand WHY all the little point shaving tricks were used, and how they aren't just creative math or min/maxing cheese, but rather they are an expression of the character and how they envision him.

Also, if they do it this way, they will always have a "back-up" character for when they need one.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Just to clarify. When I mean mess around with the system, I mean just look at the pre-gen characters talk about how to build various powers. See if we can do it ourselves, before having to run to CKC, or the UNTIL DB.

My current timeline is to spend the next two months, the ones we've playfully named a gaming wasteland in our group because of all of the holidays and for the few still in school end of term papers, projects, and finals, just looking at the source material hopefully getting other people copies of the FREddo, etc.

Come around January, I'm hoping we'll be able to actually dip into something that could remotely be called a campaign. I want them to think about characters in the interim only because that gives us a place to aim for in the long run.

[Ghost who Walks]

A Comment on creating characters:

For me, I always start with a picture, then try and figure out what powers they many have.

You could ask your players to bring in a picture of the character they want to play (found from a comic, or online).

You don't have to limit yourselves to guys in costumes, depending on the genre you play in. Many of the characters I have made wear street clothes. :)

I agree with the idea of not trying to copy a comic book character directly. Copy their concept, or steal part of their origin.

An example is one player I have, who wanted to play a mystic detective. He ended up using the Batman Origin (family killed), but it was my an unknown mystical foe. So he runs off to Tibet to study under the Mystical Master(tm), and comes back a decade later with martial arts, a few weapons and a scary costume.

Other examples that could be tried are Wolverine without the metal bones (never happened, he just regenerates and gets in fights), The Hulk with full intelligence and a colonel in the US army, and the Punisher with his family still alive.

Take part of the origin you like, take it in another direction.

[SirDidymus]

Hi (i'm a long time lurker, 3rd time poster ^_^), instead of starting another thread of this subject, I thought I'd just post my own questions here. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

I too will be starting a Champs campaign as a newbie GM with newbie PCs. I'm thinking of the following method to get everyone's feet wet.

I asked each player for a character concept around 1 of the archetypes listed in the Champs book. So for example, i've got one mystic, one brick, one Martial Art, one gadgeteer. To learn the system, I created the characters myself with heavy input from the players (essentially they came up with the power concepts and I fit Hero to them). Not too many disads tho, since they're just "concepts". Then told them that a "pilot" scenario will be palyed after which they will have to fill in the rest of their disads and may change their character sheet to make their character work the way they want.

So now I know CharGen, but it still takes me an hour or 2 to make a character, but baby steps are required I think.

Now i'm going to run a quickie with one of the players so get a hold of the combat rules. I'm thinking that one on one would be a better learning environment, and will create me a "helper" that knows a bit more of the system to help keep the game running smoothly.

A full on "pilot" episode will be run with everyone, but I'm thinking of ditching the END costs for that introduction, to help players wrap their brains around the system.

Then I'll have them flesh out their disads and make the changes as described above. Then I pop the END costs back in... and up, up, and away!

So, compared to your own newbie experiences and teaching of new HERO disciples, so you think the above is a good way to get everyone's feet wet? Or is this a ticking problem bomb waiting to blow up in everyone's face?

Sir "What…like a bunch of super friends?" Didymus

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, thats an excellent, very methodical way to go about it Sir D. And Im not just saying that bcs its the way I did it lo those many years ago :) -- it really is a good, safe approach

[Tae Kwon Dan]

*steals Sir Didymus' idea and puts it in his pocket.

Nothing to see here. ;)

[SirDidymus]

Hey! I need that to live!
*shakes fist in a cartoonish and ineffectual way*

Sir Didymus

[Ghost who Walks]

Sounds like a great way to start.:)

Keeping track of Stun and END can be a pain.

I developed the BINGO method a while ago (sorry for not mentioning it before)

Use some graph paper (or Excel), and make a graph of 100 squares. Should go 10 squares across, and 10 down.

You need a couple of them. At the top, label one STUN, and the Other END. Write (or type) a number from 1 to 100 in each box.

You can do a similar chart for BODY. If you want to get fancy, you can go all the way down to negative numbers.

As the turn progresses, move a marker from one box to another, as the END/Stun/Body goes down.

This reduces fighting over the pen/pencil.

[JohnathanChance]

Great Idea Ghost, I think I may steal that for the game I am in currently.

T K D, my group is of similar construction to yours in that, most of the players, as well as, the GM are all relatively new to the system. I am one of two players who know the system well, and I tend to help run the combats and act as the GMs helper. The real trick is having someone who won't use player knowledge in a fight be the Gm helper, I admit it's sometimes difficult, but seeing as how the character I run has probably the least damaging attacks in the group, it kind of works out, since even when I know what the bad guys can do I can't really take advantage of it too much:D


John Chance