Android/Robot PCs

[Michael Hopcroft]

In a space campaign, there are bound to be android and robot characters, either as NPCs or as player characters. In practical terms, are these any different from standard PCs?

Star Trek: TNG fell into the trap that Data was SO superior to everyone else on the crew in terms of capabilities that he had to have been built on 100-200 more points. If he had been mass-produced (and there were attempts to learn how) Starfleet would have sent out entire fleets of him and humans would have stopped going into space!

On the other hand, in a standard game the entire crew would be built on the same number of points. Further, the android character could not build on his capabilities by taking extra disadvantages related to being an android. Not that playing an android wouldn't be interesting -- just that in terms of capabilities he;d be about the same as a human.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
In a space campaign, there are bound to be android and robot characters, either as NPCs or as player characters. In practical terms, are these any different from standard PCs?

Star Trek: TNG fell into the trap that Data was SO superior to everyone else on the crew in terms of capabilities that he had to have been built on 100-200 more points. If he had been mass-produced (and there were attempts to learn how) Starfleet would have sent out entire fleets of him and humans would have stopped going into space!

On the other hand, in a standard game the entire crew would be built on the same number of points. Further, the android character could not build on his capabilities by taking extra disadvantages related to being an android. Not that playing an android wouldn't be interesting -- just that in terms of capabilities he;d be about the same as a human.
Personally, in order to reflect the advanced abilities of a higly advanced android character a la Data from ST:TNG, I'd probably let my players buy up whatever was needed for the character, regardless of point totals.
HOWEVER,
as with Starships, in the SH chapter on accquiring equipment, I'd have the PC buy the character 'on credit'. This is a concept I find very useful, and intend to use in my own campaigns.

[keithcurtis]

A system I use for my campaigns is useful for handling those concepts which require more points. It works thus (from my Savage Earth site):
Limited Experience
Characters who wish to start the game at a slightly more powerful level may take the quasi-disadvantage of Limited Experience. Each Level of limited Experience is worth 25 points. These points do not count against disadvantage totals. Each Level of Limited Experience means that the character gains one less xp than the standard amount given at the end of an adventure. The minimum award cannot be less than 1, as long as any experience at all is handed out. This slowed experience is a permanent aspect of the character. It cannot ever be bought off and the experience awards never normalize.


Basically, you start the game with a higher point total at the cost of slower progression. This rule also helps to make some concepts more workable. Sometimes characters have a really good idea that simply cannot be bought with the allotted 75+75 given to standard characters.
This rule is based on the idea that for every 1/3 more points you start with, you get 1 point less experience. So in a 150+150 game that gets an average of 4 xp per adventure, for running a 250+150 character you get only 3 per adventure.
Note also that this is not "on credit" but a permanent change. I'm just a stingy GM, though...


Keith "built on 10+225" Curtis

[DarkGreen]

In my Star Hero game people who want to play droids basically start the game as brains (no phys disads for this) and then buy the android body as a vehicle.

At first it was a wild lark but after seeing a number of characters built this way it has worked out VERY well. Some features:

1) All skills and such have to be bought with normal points, and you need a piloting skill!
2) DEX and SPD don't get out of control because the character has to buy them once for himself and once for the vehicle
3) The vehicle systems breakdown when body is taken, which gives a really neat effect and use mechanics straight out of the book
4) The max points you can have in a vehicle is equal to your point total
5) people get REALLY creative

Some of the cool stuff I've seen:
1) "Ejection seat": leaping, usable against others, trigger (certain systems destroyed), 1 charge, only to fling "pilot" and life support chamber out of droid body.
2) "Weapon Mounts": Extra limbs for holding weapons, sometimes with extra STR for resisting grabs on those weapons
3) "Universal weapons programs": 3 PSLs vs any lack of familiarity penalties -- thus making the vehicle effectively familiar with all weapons
4) "Magnetic feet": Clinging, only to ferrous/magnetic surfaces

So far no real problems. Another great sign is when the min/maxers sit down to make a droid they eventually decide not too! HAH!

-DG

[Ben Seeman]

But anyone tries to pull a Data clone out on me I will fry his positronic matrix SO fast! Data started as one of the best characters in Star Trek ever and then turned into a gimmick... and a poorly used one at that.

Now, if they wanted to play a Kryten rip off... well, bring it on!

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
But anyone tries to pull a Data clone out on me I will fry his positronic matrix SO fast! Data started as one of the best characters in Star Trek ever and then turned into a gimmick... and a poorly used one at that.


Speaking of which, did anyone else get tired of the seemingly ad infinitum siblings that seem to crop up when least expected or desired? It's almost like he's human.

And don't even get me started on K9-Mk2, I mean backup/spare Data from the latest opus.


Now, if they wanted to play a Kryten rip off... well, bring it on!

Why does everyone always overlook toaster?

[Fuzzy Gnome]

'Cause they don't bluidy want any toast.:)

[mattingly]

Not a campaign, but I ran a one-shot with one of the characters playing a Terminator. He was an automaton, and would use the damaged systems rules every time he took BODY. It worked out pretty well.

[MarkusDark]

Trekkie geek comment--
Even if Data was mass produced, there would still be humans on board - Data's abilities of 'gut instinct' and other such 'emotional' responses would hamper exploration. But having a set group of Data's in storage for guided away missions? Sure.
---End comment

Oh, and for yet another Soon android? Yup - it's sick. Especially as how they were all 'pre-Data' robots yet were named as such (who'd name their first robot 'Before' without already planning on making many more?) or had knowledge that post dated their operating existance. Nah, you could NEVER tell that Nemesis was written by Brent Spiner. :P

As for 'superpowering' a PC by making them andrioids - I would still impose some limitations to try and balance things. Such as the ol' star wars "We don't serve their kind in here" or even Dr. Polaski's take on Data - they are still property and not people. If a person is gunned down, they will probably be taken to the hospital. If an andriod is, someone will probably steal them away and try to sell them off.

And also the technology will still need to have some limits. It would be nice to be able to lift 5 times that of a human but to be able to move while doing it would probably be a balancing nightmare.

Just thoughts.

[Michael Hopcroft]

What is the technical difference between an android and a robot and how does it affect this discussion? Robots can be PCs, after all, whether they look human or not. (MY favorite race from the old TSR game Alternity , after all, was the part-machine Mechalus.

Aside from the social disadvantages of looking like a sentient forklift, what other problems would a robot PC face that would qualify as disadvantages?

On the other hand, being immune to old age and "natural death" would be a huge advantage -- as opposed to NOT being immune to obsolescence. Would sentient robots whose types had been surpassed in technology still be maintained or kept going in most interstellar societies?

This also reminds me of a classic anime schtick -- the beautiful android who doesn't know she's an android and whose world is shattered by the discovery.

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
Oh, and for yet another Soon android? Yup - it's sick. Especially as how they were all 'pre-Data' robots yet were named as such (who'd name their first robot 'Before' without already planning on making many more?) or had knowledge that post dated their operating existance. Nah, you could NEVER tell that Nemesis was written by Brent Spiner. :P


My turn for geekhood...

If I recall correctly, the 'pre-Data' droid in Nemesis was actually named 'B4' and the stupid humans thought it would be cool to call him 'Before'. Just like that poor Borg who just wanted to say 'You' and was stuck being called 'Hugh'.

Humans think they're so witty.

:rolleyes:

[Herolover]

First Definitions:
Android: Human appearing mechanical entity.
Robot: Non-human appearing mechanical entity.

I would be happy, and would be happy to have a player, play either one.

As far as point totals go I am big on the idea that all pc's start out with the same point totals. It was always one of the best things about HERO, that you can start out so balance.

If I did need a player to have more points I might allow him to take "extra" disadvantages that I would require him to buy off with experience. Other than that it really depends upon the setting and who robots are seen/treated.

[Super Squirrel]

One things I have considered is whether to allow a player to build their character with access to automaton only related powers such as Cannot be Stunned or Doesn't Bleed. These can eat up a player's starting points but in many ways they are severe edges to the player. Any statements on whether you would allow something like this or not?

[Peregrine]

Seems to me that the high point cost is the balancing factor - yes, the character has a definite edge, but that edge was paid for in the high point cost.

[eepjr24]

I would not really worry about the points if the GM let me play a android. I would write it up realistically and then roleplay to whatever point level the campaign needs. <shrug> If needed you can always come up with reasons why you can't do something that the powers on the sheet say you can for a particular situation, if doing the action would derail the plotline.

- Ernie

[Shadowpup]

That reminds me of a movie I saw maybe a year or so ago. The assassin's tool was a bomb. The bomb looked like the guy, acted like the guy, even had similar brain activity as the guy, but was in fact a bomb. Even the bomb thought he was the guy. I have no idea what the movie was called.

The difference between androids and robots I think is that androids are more human shaped. But the term 'droid has been applied to any kind of robot. I have no clue why that is. Essentially all androids are robots but not all robots are androids. Some would even say that androids are robots with human brains. But those are cyborgs.

For the anime thing, it would be cool to have the character have the disads fear and/or hartred of robots/androids.

[Shadowpup]

Ooh ooh! the androids from the Aliens universe would be good examples of player character androids. For the most part they weren't much more powerful than normal humans.

The Protective of Human Life thing is a pretty stiff Disad.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
If I recall correctly, the 'pre-Data' droid in Nemesis was actually named 'B4' and the stupid humans thought it would be cool to call him 'Before'. Just like that poor Borg who just wanted to say 'You' and was stuck being called 'Hugh'.



I am not sure if its designation was B4 or if it was named that because it came before the others.. If it was B4, I would be very interested in the timeline of it all - such as what happened to B3, B2, and what was the A models like.. In my head, it seems that the Ol' doctor Soon seemed to crank these things out as conviently as the story arc could make them.

Now have Lore escape the Cybernetics Institute - THAT'S a movie (and I had submitted a treatment to Paramount but, eh, what did I expect?)

[ShinDangaioh]

I've played a couple of android/robot(I'm not sure what to call one of them though) PC's in Champions, but I see no problem in playing one in Star Hero.


A fun trick I did was sell back the End and Recovery and buy an END battery with its own special recovery. Once the battery was depleted, the character couldn't do anything.

Nice to simulate those characters like a living clockwork doll or androids that have to plug themselves in every so often.

[Barton]

I am playing a robot in a Champions game. This is the ultimate "fish out of water" character. Role-playing is very, fun, you have to remember that you are approaching everything from a non-human stand point. Disadvantages for non-human, being gulliable, bad reactions, and hunteds were taken. I took full life support, speed reading, and science skills. The GM is happy with the character, it is balanced in his view.

[Syberdwarf2]

Has anyone played an android/Robot that applied the Three Laws Of Robotics? Most gamers I've known would cringe at the thought, claiming it would be too restrictive. However, based on having read all of the Robot Novels, I would disagree. They have PLENTY of roleplaying potential. Look at 'Foundation And Earth' (okay, it's a Foundation Book, but it has R.Daneel Olivaw in it). Not to mention 'Caves of Steel' and the sequels....

[Koshka]

I've played an android in a pre-5th Star Hero game, but voted "maybe" in the poll. The GM balanced things by throwing in lots of don't-count-against-disad-max disadvantages, and if he'd actually played those disadvantages I'd have been scrap metal on toast. It should be possible to run androids as PCs, but not the way he was doing it.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
That reminds me of a movie I saw maybe a year or so ago. The assassin's tool was a bomb. The bomb looked like the guy, acted like the guy, even had similar brain activity as the guy, but was in fact a bomb. Even the bomb thought he was the guy. I have no idea what the movie was called.

Impostor. Gary Sinise and Madeleine Stowe. Based on a Philip K. Dick novel.
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0160399

Aroooo

[Gigakaiju]

Another common way of making the distinction between androids and robots is:
Android: Largely biological/organic, possibly some mechanical components.
Robot: Largely mechanical, possibly having biological/organic components.
Gamewise, limitations like "does not heal, BODY/system damage must be repaired in a sufficiently equipped lab/shop" help reflect some of the difficulties of being an android/robot. i would tend to say that classic human prejudice would make being an android or robot difficult. The very human appearing ones would often be treated with suspicion and paranoia, and the more mechanical appearing units would be treated as if they were nonsentient/property.
Hmmm, while they are technically cyborgs, Desty Nova and Gally/Alita experience similar receptions from the younger residents of Tiphares/Zalem in Battle Angel Alita: Last Order.

-m[arcuS]