A HERO Games History

[TheImperialKhan]

Last week I got into a major pissing contest around here in which Derek Hiemforth said that the fans of Danger International had been waiting as long for new material as the Justice Inc players have been. He was mistaken as DI was a major updating and expansion of the old Espionage! and in fact was released 18 months after JI. But he got me thinking.

Just when did things happen at HERO Games? When was each product released? When were the major awards won. When did the company change owners and/or Management? So I got an idea: Let's put together a timeline of sorts for HERO Games listing every release and every major event since HERO was founded. Then we'll turn it over to Ben for inclusion on the FAQ page.

I figured that we can list things by month and year when possible. When it isn't then just by year. I hope you guys are willing to give it a try I think it'll will be interesting.

Since it's my idea I guess I'll start us off...

1981 - Champions
1982 - Champions wins the Charles Roberts Award at Origins 82
1982 - Champions II
1982 - Champions miniatures from Heritage USA
1983 - Champions II wins the Charles Roberts Award at Origins 83
1983 - Espionage!
1983 autumn - 1st edition of Adventurers Club
1984 - Champions 3rd Edition
1984 May - Justice Inc
1984 June - Champions III
1984 August - Trail of the Gold Spike
1985 May - Lands of Mystery
1985 - The Golden Age of Champions by Firebird LTD
1985 November - Danger International
1986 July - The Hero System Beastiary
1988 August - Aaron Allston's Strike Force
1989 February - Star Hero
1989 August - Champions 4th Edition
1989 - Classic Enemies
1990 - Fantasy Hero
1990 - Invasions: Target Earth
1990 - The Olympians
1991 - Western Hero
1992 - Normals Unbound
1992 - Champions Universe
1993 - Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengeance
1993 - Viper
1993 - Justice, Not Law
1994 - An Eye for an Eye
1994 - Corporations
1994 - Golden Age Champions
1995 - Atlantis
1997 - Champions: New Millennium
2002 February? - HERO System 5th Edition
2002 February? - The Ultimate Martial Artist
2002 June - The Hero System Bestiary
2002 July - Champions 5th Edition
2002 August? - HERO system Resource Kit
2002 August? - Champions Universe
2002 September? - Conquerors, Killers and Crooks
2002 November - Star Hero

a ? indicates the month may be wrong for release but that's what the book lists the printing date as.

[Agent Escafarc]

1985(month?) Fantasy Hero
1986(month?) Gadgets (second printing was in September)
1995(month?) Ulimate Mentalist

[Agent Escafarc]

A couple of more:
1990 Champions 3-D
1993 HERO System Almanac 1
1995 HERO System Almanac 2

And as a side note while digging these out I found my rolemaster genre book At Rapier's Point one of my favorite RPG books that I thought was long lost. So thanks Khan for making me get off my behind :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Last week I got into a major pissing contest around here in which Derek Hiemforth said that the fans of Danger International had been waiting as long for new material as the Justice Inc players have been. He was mistaken Actually, if you go back to the other thread, you'll find that I said DI fans "have also been waiting almost 20 years." I did not say they had been waiting "as long" as JI fans.

As for the timeline, if you check out my list of All Hero Books linked in my sig, it would give us an excellent starting point, since it already lists books by stock number (and therefore essentially chronologically within each company). In my copious spare time (sarcasm), I've been working on modifying the list so that you can sort it in ways other than by publishing company. (So you could sort it by author, by genre, and so on.) I could add year of publication to that so it could be sorted as well. I have a copy of each book on the list, so for me it's just a matter of looking. :)

[TheImperialKhan]

Derek, Thank you for splitting hairs and torpedoing this thread. It was ever so nice of you. Khan

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Derek, Thank you for splitting hairs and torpedoing this thread. It was ever so nice of you. Khan I would apologize, except that I don't think I have anything to apologize for, frankly. You said I was mistaken about something; I briefly pointed out that I wasn't mistaken. That's all. The vast majority of my post was agreeing with you and offering to help. I don't think that constitutes "torpedoing" a thread.

[TheImperialKhan]

OK, I'll spell everything out.

I said that JI players have been waiting almost twenty years for new stuff.

You said that DI players have also been waiting almost twenty years for new stuff.

That sounds to me like you're saying that they've been waiting just as long. That's what I meant by "splitting hairs".

But, as I showed above, they haven't been. DI, itself an update and big-time expansion of Espionage!, came out 18 months after JI. Thus the JI players have in fact been waiting longer. The last JI supplement Lands of Mystery came out six months before DI did. Also a lot of the material from Dark Champions and An Eye For An Eye can be directly applied to DI. Oh some of it can be adapted, that's the key word BTW, to JI, but not that much really. And that was only ten years ago.

As for torpedoing the thread. Although I know it wasn't intentional. You didn't really leave that much for anyone else to do, on the surface at least. And although a number of people have viewed the thread, no one has contributed anything since. I guess they feel it's all been done already. It hasn't of course, there's still the dates, awards and office politics to include, but the sheer magnitude of the material you've added kind of brought things to a screeching halt before they had really gotten started.

I'm not angry mind you, just kinda sad that the information overload seems to have stopped what could have been an interesting thread, that's all. Sorry if I bashed.

Oh and Agent Escafarc, thanks for posting and I'm glad you found your book. Hmmm "At Rapier's Point" I used that as the title of an old Flashing Blades campaign once upon a time. Thanks for reminding me about it. It was a pretty good campaign :)

[keithcurtis]

IK,
If somebody said you were mistaken, and mis-quoted you, wouldn't you respond?
I think the hairsplitting is being done on your side.

BTW, "thanks Derek for putting together an excellent list."

Keith "sheesh!" Curtis

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Derek, Thank you for splitting hairs and torpedoing this thread. It was ever so nice of you. Khan

Khan, chill. Derek said "it would give us an excellent starting point". He didn't ask people to stop responding.

Should Derek not reply to questions when he has the answer?

To echo Keith, sheesh...

[Nato]

Yeah, sheesh.

[TheImperialKhan]

When did Saturday become "Bash the Imperial Khan Day?"

This is two weeks in a row now.
I certainly didn't come into this "guns a-blazing".
My responses have been limited to the discussion on hand.
They can hardly be called inflammatory.
So just what is it with you guys?

Is it me?
Do I have bad breath?
Is there a cow flap hanging from my boot?
Has someone taped an "Asshole" sign on my back?

What?

[Nato]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Has someone taped an "Asshole" sign on my back?


Yeah - YOU did.

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
When did Saturday become "Bash the Imperial Khan Day?"


Since never. You come across as having a chip on your shoulder when you post to the boards. Some of your post have been hostile toward Hero Games and other fans on the boards. Yes, you have been flamed in return. Is that right, probably not, but that is life on the internet.

The Hero Games board is one of my favorite hang outs, because it remain very civil in a sea of internet crap.

My advise, when you want to discuss/debate something, that's great, just lose the "I'm always right" and "Your wrong and let me tell you are wrong hatefully" attitude in your posts.

Maybe you should have a friend or family read though your old posts. Having a third party opinion outside the debate may give your a non-bias answer.

Just friendly advice, take it if you like, flame me if you must.

Mike

[KA.]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
When did Saturday become "Bash the Imperial Khan Day?"

This is two weeks in a row now.
I certainly didn't come into this "guns a-blazing".
My responses have been limited to the discussion on hand.
They can hardly be called inflammatory.
So just what is it with you guys?

Is it me?
Do I have bad breath?
Is there a cow flap hanging from my boot?
Has someone taped an "Asshole" sign on my back?

What?

Hello Khan and welcome to the boards.

You can't tell it from my current post count, but I have been on the Hero boards for several years now, and I started playing Hero when the first boxed set came out. As far as the boards, I am not a real old-timer like Champsguy, Derek, and some of the others, but I have been around long enough to get a decent grasp of things.

This has always been a very polite, civil, board. It has also been a great place to get answers to questions about the Hero system.
This was even true during a period of several years when it looked like the Hero system was on the way to extinction. During that time, a lot of people were here on the boards "keeping the faith" even when it looked like there was no Hero System to support.
If you have ever read or watched "Fahrenheit 451", I am sure you will remember the "living books". People who, due to book burning, kept great literature alive my memorizing it word for word.
For many years, some of us Hero fans felt that way.
Like there was very important information that was being kept alive only by our memory and our willpower.
Because of this, people here tend to be sticklers for detail.

It does not mean that people will judge you harshly for making a mistake, but it does mean that if you are going to get nit-picky in an argument on Hero, you had better have some pretty worthwhile nits to pick, because most of the arguments about stuff around here have already been hashed out years ago, and there are a fair number of people around who remember the answers.

You can imagine the reaction you would get if you walked up to the "living book" who's job it was to memorize "Tom Sawyer", and started the conversation with:
"Are you sure that's Tom Sawyer?
I thought it was Todd Sawyer!
Hey everybody, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about!
The book is Todd Sawyer and his friend is named Gooseberry Finn!"
You might get rather a heated argument started there, too.

I'm not saying all this to try to "shout you down" or tell you what you can and can't say to anyone around here. For one thing it is not my place, and for another, I wouldn't want to do that if I could.

I'm just trying to offer a little insight into why some of the people around here can seem a bit touchy.

You sound like a long-time Hero fan, which puts you in some fairly distinguished company. And considering that the group is not that large, there is no reason why all of us cannot get along, at least to the point of civility.

That is all I have to say about that.

KA

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Is it me?
Do I have bad breath?
Is there a cow flap hanging from my boot?
Has someone taped an "Asshole" sign on my back?

What?
It is because your posts are too aggressive. Every time you type something it comes off as "I'm right, you're wrong." You go out of your way to try and prove everyone else wrong; even when what you are try to prove is a mistake on your part for misreading something.

If you re-read the very first paragraph in this tread you will see where all the problems came from. That first paragraph was an attack on Derek; and your attack was based entirely on you misinterpreting what he had posted in another thread. If you had just dropped that first paragraph you would have gotten answers from people who were interested, and the people who were not interested would have left the thread alone.

In this thread you started out being the "Asshole", whether you realized it or not. You are probably not a bad person, but you really do need to think about your posts before you hit Submit Reply.

[TheImperialKhan]

You've got to be kidding.

Maybe you should take a look at the posts in the Non-Gaming Discussion forum.

Compared to some of the stuff that goes on down there I've been "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm".

If anyone bothered to read my third post in particular the last 3 paragraphs you'll see that not only was I not angry at all, but I apologized to Derek a long time ago.

That last post that I made was not agressive in the least as far as I can see. In fact it was intended to be humorous. And I think that if some people hadn't decided that all of my posts are flames they would have seen that. Taking that post and turning it into a personal attack against me was just plain mean. And yes, Nato, I'm talking about you. There was nothing even remotely good-natured about your response, not even a smilie, it pure flame and nothing else. And yes it hurt. If that was your intention, congratulations, you succeeded, are you happy now?

Monolith, my initial paragraph was only intened to explain where the idea came from rather than dropping it out of the blue, and as I mentioned above I apologized to Derek soon after.

KA, Thanks for the welcome and the advice and I'll do my best to take it to heart.

Mike, I don't have a chip on my shoulder and really don't understand why you think I do. Have I posted negative posts? Yes I have. But I've also posted positive ones as well. For some reason the positive don't seem to stand out in your mind. Human nature I guess we all tend to remember the negatives for a lot longer. At any rate I do carefully check my facts before posting. In this case I physically dug out the books and verified the printing dates. If I had been guessing, then I would have said so. If I'm proved wrong I'll have the good grace to admit it and apologize. But conversely, if I'm right I'm not going to back down either. I appreciate the advice, I just don't see it that way and I'm certainly not going to flame you for it, at least as I understand the term. BTW what has hateful in my posts? I could see inflammatory, if only just barely, but hateful :confused:

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Maybe you should take a look at the posts in the Non-Gaming Discussion forum.

I think most people consider the Non-Gaming Discussion forum a completely diiferent animal, separate from the other forums. I think it is a waste DOJ bought it back.


BTW what has hateful in my posts? I could see inflammatory, if only just barely, but hateful :confused:
Your right, hateful is probably to strong. Blame a weak vocabulary from public schools:). The reason I said hateful is because when you debate you get WAY to emotional, and it comes across as anger.

Mike

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Monolith, my initial paragraph was only intened to explain where the idea came from rather than dropping it out of the blue, and as I mentioned above I apologized to Derek soon after.
If you consider your third post an apology, then I do not think you understand what a true apology is. What I read in your third post is an attempt to prove that you were right and Derek was wrong. It is also in that third post where you accuse him of torpedoing your thread. I can surely see where someone would take that as an apology.

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger
I think most people consider the Non-Gaming Discussion forum a completely diiferent animal, separate from the other forums. I think it is a waste DOJ bought it back.

I have to agree with you here. It gets pretty hot in there. :eek: Still there are occassionally threads that are fun, like the one on casting the Iron Man movie. :)


Originally posted by Mike Basinger Your right, hateful is probably to strong. Blame a weak vocabulary from public schools:). The reason I said hateful is because when you debate you get WAY to emotional, and it comes across as anger.

Mike

Hey I went through the same school system, which explains a lot don't it. :D

I don't mean to sound angry at all. And I'll try not to in the future.

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Monolith
If you consider your third post an apology, then I do not think you understand what a true apology is. What I read in your third post is an attempt to prove that you were right and Derek was wrong. It is also in that third post where you accuse him of torpedoing your thread. I can surely see where someone would take that as an apology.

To clarify things I accused Derek in my 2nd post. In the 3rd I said this...

"As for torpedoing the thread. Although I know it wasn't intentional. You didn't really leave that much for anyone else to do, on the surface at least. And although a number of people have viewed the thread, no one has contributed anything since. I guess they feel it's all been done already. It hasn't of course, there's still the dates, awards and office politics to include, but the sheer magnitude of the material you've added kind of brought things to a screeching halt before they had really gotten started.

I'm not angry mind you, just kinda sad that the information overload seems to have stopped what could have been an interesting thread, that's all. Sorry if I bashed.

Basically I was trying to explain why it looked to me like the thread had been torpedoed, that I was sure that it had not been done intentionally and that I was sorry it I had said that it was intentional and if I had bashed Derek. That I was not angry, just kinda sad that thread hadn't gone anywhere.

If that doesn't sound like a good enough apology then please enlighten me, what do you consider a "true apology" to be?

No Offense but it sounds to me like your reasons for being upset are that you don't like me or what I'm saying.

Which, of course, is completely your right.

[Nato]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
And yes, Nato, I'm talking about you. There was nothing even remotely good-natured about your response, not even a smilie, it pure flame and nothing else. And yes it hurt. If that was your intention, congratulations, you succeeded, are you happy now?

Look, if you're upset with me agreeing with your statement "Did someone hang the a**hole flag on my back" and think that I was flaming you, you've got perception problems. I wasn't flaming anybody. You start this thread and are immediately rude. In the previous thread, where you discuss your dissapointment with the 2004 schedule you were immediately rude. You get on public message boards and start swearing, for no reason other than you are upset. Now I curse like a sailor, and normally others cursing doesn't bother me. But in a public place it does. I don't walk through Wal-Mart or a city park and start swearing around everybody. I save that for instant messages with Ben Seeman. So, if you come on here, offering nothing but aggressive/hostile postings and a foul mouth, you should EXCPECT people to get offended. Don't call US flamers for confronting your rude attitude.

I'm of the same opinion as most people here - that if you left that whole first paragraph out of your first post there would be no hard feelings and this would be one big happy thread.

You should really evaluate your message board habbits. If every time you make a post people tell you you need to think about how you word things, maybe you really should listen.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
No Offense but it sounds to me like your reasons for being upset are that you don't like me or what I'm saying.

Which, of course, is completely your right.
I do not like or dislike you. I do not know enough about you to like or dislike you. I just think that your style is too aggressive. Even if you do not intend it to be, your posts come off sounding like you are angry, and that you are right and you are going to prove everyone else wrong.

Either way does not really matter to me. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, until they do something so stupid that I start to ignore them. I was just responding to your questions about why people are negative toward you. You might not have liked my answer, but it is the answer I gave.

Just remember, if you see yourself saying something negative about someone else in your post (even if you only intend it to be a joke) it is better to just cut that section out entirely, and find another way to state your opinion. That way no one feels insulted, and thus feels the need to defend themself.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
To clarify things I accused Derek in my 2nd post. In the 3rd I said this...

"As for torpedoing the thread. Although I know it wasn't intentional. You didn't really leave that much for anyone else to do, on the surface at least. And although a number of people have viewed the thread, no one has contributed anything since. I guess they feel it's all been done already. It hasn't of course, there's still the dates, awards and office politics to include, but the sheer magnitude of the material you've added kind of brought things to a screeching halt before they had really gotten started.

I'm not angry mind you, just kinda sad that the information overload seems to have stopped what could have been an interesting thread, that's all. Sorry if I bashed.

Basically I was trying to explain why it looked to me like the thread had been torpedoed, that I was sure that it had not been done intentionally and that I was sorry it I had said that it was intentional and if I had bashed Derek. That I was not angry, just kinda sad that thread hadn't gone anywhere.

If that doesn't sound like a good enough apology then please enlighten me, what do you consider a "true apology" to be?

No Offense but it sounds to me like your reasons for being upset are that you don't like me or what I'm saying.

Which, of course, is completely your right.


If you look back on the beginning of that same post, you start with:
OK, I'll spell everything out.
This would normally be not a problem, but in the context of your previous posts comes off as provocative language. It sounds condescending. The immediately following text accuses Derek of splitting hairs while splitting hairs itself. This exacerbates the problem, particularly when Derek's original post within the thread seems nothing short of extremely helpful.. You may not have meant it to sound aggressive, but the written word can be difficult to interpret without visual or tonal cues. Obviously a number of people did view your posts in a negative light.

I for one, am going to drop this subject here, since further discussion will probably blow an extremely minor incident waaaay out of proportion.

Keith "Movin' on" Curtis

[Keneton]

I'm not sure wht year this was in, but I understand that "Champions" was inducted into the RPG hall of fame. I am not sure who or what else is inducted, but as I remember Mark Miller was. Maybe someone else knows the scoop.

PLEASE lets get off of this other topic. Everyone have a group hug. (Takes clensing breath), Ahh, isn't that better!?
:D

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Keneton
I'm not sure wht year this was in, but I understand that "Champions" was inducted into the RPG hall of fame. I am not sure who or what else is inducted, but as I remember Mark Miller was. Maybe someone else knows the scoop.

PLEASE lets get off of this other topic. Everyone have a group hug. (Takes clensing breath), Ahh, isn't that better!?
:D

Yeah, I agree re getting back on the original thread topic. In particular I'd be interested in a who's-who corporate history, which people were at the helm when, what the company associations were (the ICE period, the Cybergames, etc.). I've been a long-time Champions player but only recently paid any attention the actual company, so I've missed a lot of it. Of course I have friends who know a lot about it but it'd be cool to see it get documented herein. That being said sorry I don't have much personally to add in terms of dates and events.

[Keneton]

I do know that Steven S. Long is Listed as "Stephen" S. Long on a book cover.

10 EP to whoever knows the title to this book published in 1993!

Good luck. (Jeapordy music plays in background)
:)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Keneton
10 EP to whoever knows the title to this book published in 1993!
If I were going to make a guess I would say... Dark Champions! :)

[keithcurtis]

Thanks, Keneton. :)

Keith "What I should'a said" Curtis

[Keneton]

By virtue of his correct answer Monolith gets 10 EP! (Cheers and Applause as the Mighty Monolith recieves his booty)

You can hev your 10 EP or trade it in on what is behind door #2? Well. . . .

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Keneton
You can hev your 10 EP or trade it in on what is behind door #2? Well. . . .
I will take the experience. I'm saving up for a "Crypt" in New Cairo. :)

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger
I think most people consider the Non-Gaming Discussion forum a completely diiferent animal, separate from the other forums. I think it is a waste DOJ bought it back.

Yeah Mike, but if that forum wasn't there then all of that crap would end up in THESE forums. :)

[KA.]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

KA, Thanks for the welcome and the advice and I'll do my best to take it to heart.


You're welcome. :)
Hang in there!

And remember that many people rant shamelessly in "Non-Gaming Discussions". I think the reason they kept it was as a sort of safety valve for the boards. But we usually are pretty polite everywhere else.

One of the things that brought me up short when I first started posting years ago, was the fact that people were actually paying attention to what I said!;)

I had seen so much drivel on the internet in general, that I didn't pay very much attention to exactly what I was saying, or exactly how I was saying it, in my first few posts.

While the replies I got were not rude, some people did not hesitate to point out some of the gaps in my logic, or at least in the way I put it forth.

Rather than form the opinion that I was dealing with a group that contained a lot of "elitists", I took up the challenge to do a little bit better job of "Strictly Speaking".

And I took it as a compliment that anyone would pay enough attention to what I posted to point out the errors in it.

It is worth a lot to be able to interact with a group of people at a bit higher intellectual level than the general public.
(Oh, and Aglar too!:D )

KA

[Keneton]

Good choice!

Behind Door #2 was (drumroll . . . symbol crash!)

The famous Juggernaut Armor! Lucky you, the last guy was DYING to get rid of this!!

:D

[Steve Long]

I do know that Steven S. Long is Listed as "Stephen" S. Long on a book cover.

I have a long and amusing story about that -- too long to tell here. Catch me at a con sometime and I'll regale you with it. It even includes physical comedy! :)

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Yeah Mike, but if that forum wasn't there then all of that crap would end up in THESE forums. :)

OK, good point. A pressure value is a good thing:).

Mike

[BNakagawa]

i forget, what year was flextiles?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
i forget, what year was flextiles? 1983. :)

(All 5 sets came out that same year.)

[Nato]

So what are flextiles? I've never heard of that before.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Nato
So what are flextiles? I've never heard of that before. They were flexible soft plastic cutouts (similar to ColorForms) of scenery for games. There were five sets: Vehicles, Street Scenery, Laboratory Scenery, Landscape, and Weaponry.

[AlbertDeschesne]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
They were flexible soft plastic cutouts (similar to ColorForms) of scenery for games. There were five sets: Vehicles, Street Scenery, Laboratory Scenery, Landscape, and Weaponry.

And they were Awesome! Nowadays they would cost an arm and a leg, though.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
They were flexible soft plastic cutouts (similar to ColorForms) of scenery for games. There were five sets: Vehicles, Street Scenery, Laboratory Scenery, Landscape, and Weaponry.

Sounds pretty cool! I'd use 'em. What was the quality on them like. I'd actually use the HeroClix maps for Champions adventures if they didn't look like a 4th grade craft project. You'd think with all the money WizKids spends to make cool minis, they'd spend a bit more money and actually hire a real graphic designer to make their maps.

I also opened one of those Steve Jackson map packs today to check it out. While the concept is good, who the heck did they let design them? I looked at mall of the dead today. They were WAAAAY to busy. They used patterns to fill floor tiles that hurt youR eyes to look at.

Sorry to derail the thread for a second.

I'm really interested in this history thread myself. More so interested in learning about how they designed and came up with Champions back in the day. How they game changed hands a few times. Reading about the people and decisions and stuff. Does anyone know where I can read more about this? The little history in Fred was cool. would just like more.

[Darren Watts]

A full history of the company would be a good thing to have for newcomers, I think. Let me see what I can do about putting that together. No promises, and probably no time soon... dw

[Starcorp Man]

Back on Topic: There was Rise of the Valkyrie, a module that was out for a limited time that is also Absent from the list. It's a champions adventure, time travel where the supers have to travel back in time and allow the holocaust to happen, because the world is better for it.

Sorry: Wings of the Valkyrie

[KawangaKid]

Since it's my idea I guess I'll start us off...

1981 - Champions
1982 - Champions wins the Charles Roberts Award at Origins 82
1982 - Champions II
1982 - Champions miniatures from Heritage USA
1983 - Champions II wins the Charles Roberts Award at Origins 83
1983 - Espionage!
1983 autumn - 1st edition of Adventurers Club
1984 - Champions 3rd Edition

a ? indicates the month may be wrong for release but that's what the book lists the printing date as.

Say... Can someone post the covers to Champion and Champions II and the 3rd Edition? I just got the 1st edition of Champions by trade and I had the Champions II book... but wasn't Champions II a sort of... rules addendum rather than a new edition of the rules?

If so... why is there a 3rd Edition?

[rjcurrie]

Say... Can someone post the covers to Champion and Champions II and the 3rd Edition? I just got the 1st edition of Champions by trade and I had the Champions II book... but wasn't Champions II a sort of... rules addendum rather than a new edition of the rules?

If so... why is there a 3rd Edition?
To help clarify, the 2nd edition of Champions -- not to be confused with the supplement Champions II -- came out sometime in 1982, I believe. It was basically an update of the first edition with some rule changes. I believe this is where the "you can't put one framework inside another" rule came in. Also, Characteristic Drain and Characteristic Transfer became Power Drain and Power Transfer. There were some other changes as well but I am two lazy to pull the books out and compare them.

Incidentally, there were two versions of Champions II. The first had a completely different set of vehicle rules.

[Rage]

So Champions the 4th edition would chronologically sensible. Duhh.

[KawangaKid]

To help clarify, the 2nd edition of Champions -- not to be confused with the supplement Champions II -- came out sometime in 1982, I believe...
Incidentally, there were two versions of Champions II. The first had a completely different set of vehicle rules.

Ah - it all becomes clear now... let me review the Champions releases again...

[KA.]

-snip-

Incidentally, there were two versions of Champions II. The first had a completely different set of vehicle rules.

:eek: :angst: :eek:

Is this true?
I have one version of Champions II, that I bought when it came out.
There's another one?
How do you tell the difference?
Different covers?

KA.

[TheImperialKhan]

Yes I believe there are different covers. One features the Guardians in their danger room while the other features them in a group pose, iirc.

Derek could probably tell you more. I must admit he's more knowledgable on this subjuct than I am. :)

[KA.]

Yes I believe there are different covers. One features the Guardians in their danger room while the other features them in a group pose, iirc.

Derek could probably tell you more. I must admit he's more knowledgable on this subjuct than I am. :)

Thanks, Khan! :)
Now I have to go to eBay and start looking for the one I don't have.

KA.

[rjcurrie]

Yes I believe there are different covers. One features the Guardians in their danger room while the other features them in a group pose, iirc.

Derek could probably tell you more. I must admit he's more knowledgable on this subjuct than I am. :)
Actually the different cover is just a later printing of the second version.

The two "versions" I am referring to both shared the same cover. If I recall correctly, Champions II was first released in late 1982 or late 1983 -- and by the summer convention season, the new version with the changed vehicle rules was out. I'm not even sure how big the print run for the first version was. A friend of mine picked me up my copy on a trip to San Francisco.

Rod

[TheImperialKhan]

Actually the different cover is just a later printing of the second version.

The two "versions" I am referring to both shared the same cover. If I recall correctly, Champions II was first released in late 1982 or late 1983 -- and by the summer convention season, the new version with the changed vehicle rules was out. I'm not even sure how big the print run for the first version was. A friend of mine picked me up my copy on a trip to San Francisco.

Rod

Ahh. That would explain things. I only have one copy but I remember seeing the other at my FLGS. Never picked it up though as I already had it and didn't know about the changes.

Thanks for the heads up, Rod. :)

And sorry KA but I guess it's going to be a bit harder to find. :(

[ChaosDrgn]

Hero 5th had an April release date. I remember 'cause it was originally scheduled for April 1st and thought "Man, they are going to get some jokes out of this if it's late" and was later moved to April 2nd.

[Darren Watts]

Hero 5th had an April release date. I remember 'cause it was originally scheduled for April 1st and thought "Man, they are going to get some jokes out of this if it's late" and was later moved to April 2nd.

Yeah, though the book actually shipped earlier (March 25th or so, IIRC.) We sent out solicitiations and stuff in February saying April 1st, which was a Monday and when we actually thought it would ship. About a week later I started getting messages from people: "Dude, that's not funny!" I honestly had no idea what they were talking about until somebody pointed out to me the date and Hero's, ahem, checkered past with this particular product. So we rewrote the solicitations to say March 31st, even though that was a Sunday and it certainly wasn't going to ship then.

And what's with all the thread necromancy recently? dw

[SCUBA Hero]

And what's with all the thread necromancy recently? dwDude, it's in the Fantasy Hero Grimoire. It's really cool - you should buy one :nods earnestly:



:snicker:

[Derek Hiemforth]

Derek could probably tell you more. I must admit he's more knowledgable on this subjuct than I am. :)Yes, well, umm, thank you... that is, I err... hem... haw... umm... :o

To be honest, I did not know that there were two different versions of Champions II. I knew there were two different covers, but assumed (correctly, I guess) that they were just different printings. I didn't realize two earlier printings had different content.

Now I've got make sure I have one of each. ;)

[TheImperialKhan]

And what's with all the thread necromancy recently? dw

I was kinda wondering that myself. :confused:

But as long as everybody's cool with it. :rockon:

[TheImperialKhan]

Yes, well, umm, thank you... that is, I err... hem... haw... umm... :o

To be honest, I did not know that there were two different versions of Champions II. I knew there were two different covers, but assumed (correctly, I guess) that they were just different printings. I didn't realize two earlier printings had different content.

Now I've got make sure I have one of each. ;)

Confidentially, until Rob said otherwise so did I. :joint:

Pssst...don't tell anybody. It would ruin my reputation as a know-it-all-asshole. :winkgrin:

[rjcurrie]

I should say that I am about 98% sure of the two different versions thing, but there is always the possibility that I halucinated the thing. Unfortunately, I no longer have first version. I gave it to somebody years ago who had no interest in the vehicle rules.

Rod

[ChaosDrgn]

"Dude, that's not funny!" I honestly had no idea what they were talking about until somebody pointed out to me the date and Hero's, ahem, checkered past with this particular product.
Ranks up there with Bell's(?) comment in AC about one of the issues "Hi welcome to Issue xx, if we had a normal publishing schedule we'd be on yy!"

[Lord Mhoram]

There were some other changes as well but I am two lazy to pull the books out and compare them.


The other big one was the "You're doing what to multipowers??!?!".

Originally there was no active cost max on slots in the multipower. If you put limitations on the slot you could up the active on the slot (ie a 60 pt multi with a slot with a slo with an OAF it could be a 120 active).

They changed that in second.

[Narratio]

Just checked the first posts in this thread. Yep, I've still got originals of everything up to '86. Then 2 copies of 4th edition Champions, including the floppy with the hero designer program on it... Ah me, so many years of RPG'ing.

[Killer Shrike]

Just checked the first posts in this thread. Yep, I've still got originals of everything up to '86. Then 2 copies of 4th edition Champions, including the floppy with the hero designer program on it... Ah me, so many years of RPG'ing.
The floppy would be HERO Maker if memory serves, that grand old beast of the never ending print driver issues.

HERO Designer is a much more recent product.