JLA vs. Avengers #2 (Spoilers)

[KawangaKid]

Well, according the the latest JLA vs. Avengers, Thor goes down under the fists of Superman. Supes managed to say "...may have been the toughest opponent I've ever..." before being gang-mauled by the other Avengers.

As for Cap vs. Bats, they did a little dance... check out each others stances, combat abilities, reflexes... very little combat. Finally Bats admits that Cap would beat him after a very long battle. Then they both decide to get to the bottom of whoever is manipulating the two teams.

One of the other things I liked is the fact that there are differences between the universes that affect powers. Flash's Speed Force is one. Chaos Magic is another... The Scarlet Witch barely held up under the corruptive influence of Chaos in the DC Universe, but it gave her immense power there.

I liked Captain Marvel attuning her abilites to drain Green Lantern's ring, and Kyle's subsequent attempt to recharge from the Cosmic Cube.

I liked how Hawkeye tried to take out the Flash with the Boomerang Arrow, but Flash comments on his prior experience with boomerangs. I liked the Wonder Woman vs. Hercules confrontation in Asgard.

4 issues is too short for this series. It should've been a maxi-series (12 issues).

[Chuckg]

My own comments:


a) Of course, that 'Cap would win eventually' assumes that both sides are fighting fair.

Batman. Fight fair. Now pull the other one, it's got bells on.

But Batman's not going to *tell* Cap that, now is he? Much better to surprise him next time. :)


b) Captain Marvel, draining Kyle's Power Ring? I really don't think she can handle that much juice... especially since, if this is Kyle's post-Ion ring, it *CAN'T* run out of juice. Ever. The most it can do is kick down to a lesser stage of output.


c) I also found it hilarious that Hawkeye would try that trick on Captain Boomerang's nemesis. Granted, it /did/ work for Hawkeye on the Whizzer...

[Grailknight]

I liked the way they used Captain Marvel. She was the only Avenger who could stand up to Green Lantern. Bats and Cap was a classic. Hated the diss they gave to Captain Atom and Firestorm but if they didn't the fight wouldn't have been balanced.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Chuckg
My own comments:


a) Of course, that 'Cap would win eventually' assumes that both sides are fighting fair.

Batman. Fight fair. Now pull the other one, it's got bells on.

But Batman's not going to *tell* Cap that, now is he? Much better to surprise him next time. :)


That is always brought up in the bazillions of Cap vs. Bats debates we've had here.

I still don't understand the assumption that Cap would fall to the ground weeping in fear if someone didn't fight 'fair'.

The Red Skull is such an 'honorable' opponent. :rolleyes:

[Bazza]

I refuse to read this thread or the one in the NGD Boards.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9271

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Grailknight
I liked the way they used Captain Marvel. She was the only Avenger who could stand up to Green Lantern. Bats and Cap was a classic. Hated the diss they gave to Captain Atom and Firestorm but if they didn't the fight wouldn't have been balanced.

Let's say it together:

Quasar

[Col. Orange]

My 2p. I like the Avengers... well, I like Cap. and Thor, but the JLA are on a whole other power level.

Cap. vs. Batman: Batman's a better all round and more varied combatant but Cap.'s stronger and far more agile - they'd tie each other up for years, neither winning.

Supes vs. Thor: Thor may have magic lightning (he can use it indoors, in space, in the sewers...) but Supes is stronger and far faster - an exhausting brawl but Supes'd stagger away (after checkin' Thor was okay of course).

WW vs. Herc.: Herc. would have his ass handed to him, not because he's weaker or a worse fighter, just because he'd be awful distracted.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Starlord
That is always brought up in the bazillions of Cap vs. Bats debates we've had here.

I still don't understand the assumption that Cap would fall to the ground weeping in fear if someone didn't fight 'fair'.

The Red Skull is such an 'honorable' opponent. :rolleyes:

Who the hell said that Cap 'would fall to the ground weeping'? You're deliberately trivializing the opposing POV so you don't have to look at it.

As even Nomad has managed to prove, Cap is *not* immune to a swift blindside kick to the nuts, or the tactical equivalent of same. And while the Red Skull might not be honorable, he's also not very cunning. (He *tries* to be, but eesh...) And far too often, the Skull defaults merely to matching his bare fists vs Cap's bare fist anyway... pride is a bugger, ain't it?

It's not unexpected that Cap can see the Skull's not really very sophisticated attempts to unfairly manipulate situational advantage coming and counter them. Batman, OTOH, is an entirely different level of opponent when it comes to deviousness.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Who the hell said that Cap 'would fall to the ground weeping'? You're deliberately trivializing the opposing POV so you don't have to look at it.


I'm trivializing it because it doesn't make sense. Batman is a relatively unknown entity to Cap, he'd expect just about anything. Simply using sneaky tricks from his utility belt is not 'unfair', he is merely using the weapons at his disposal. Cap would be ready for that (whether he could counter them is another matter).

To Cap all is fair once battle commences. 'Unfair' tactics would only work out of combat against Cap, perhaps depending on Bats getting Cap to trust him, then deceiving him.

Anyway, you had Bats himself admitting Cap is the better one-on-one fighter. They're probably even as combat leaders. However, Batman's strengths don't just focus on combat, he is most dangerous behind-the-scenes figuring things out.

Recently, Cap was powerless against the Triune Understanding. He didn't understand how to deal with them. I imagine Bats infiltrating their organization and exposing them in one issue or so. ;)

[Chuckg]

> I'm trivializing it because it doesn't make sense. Batman is a
> relatively unknown entity to Cap, he'd expect just about
> anything. Simply using sneaky tricks from his utility belt is
> not 'unfair', he is merely using the weapons at his disposal.
> Cap would be ready for that

Cap would be ready for something he doesn't know about?

'Staying alert for anything' is not the same thing as 'Knowing about everything that's going to come at you'.

To use Champions rulespeak, while Batman obviously wouldn't get the x2 STUN multiplier for an out of combat surprise, because Cap is obviously expecting attack, he *would* still be eligible for a Surprise Move bonus.

And as narrowly matched as they already are, that's just the edge he needs.

[snip]
> Anyway, you had Bats himself admitting Cap is the better
> one-on-one fighter.

... by a very narrow margin, as both of them acknowledged that it would take forever to wear Batman down.

Incidentally, seeing as how Captain America has superhuman endurance -- he metabolism generates virtually zero fatigue poisons -- while Batman *does* fatigue eventually, admitting that Cap could eventually wear Batman down isn't actually conceding anything about a superior level of *skill* for Cap.

It's merely conceding that he has a borderline-metahuman physical attribute that even Batman's fanatical level of physical training could not hope to match.

Two guys. Both 99+% evenly matched in OCV, DCV, PD, ED, and Damage Classes.

One of them has 0 END for STR and Running and a 15+ REC, and the other one doesn't. If the fight can be dragged out for long enough, who's going to win? And by what superior "skill"?

[Blue]

Originally posted by Chuckg
>Cap would be ready for something he doesn't know about? I tend to give cap the benefit of the doubt on all this. The guy has fought plenty of dirty fighters, as has nearly every superhero. It's just part of the daily fight against crime.

Simply put, I think batman's edge comes from the never-ending array of gimmicks he has all over him. They could fight a long time and I tend to think Cap would win, being a "super-soldier" and not essentially a highly-trained normal. But as soon as batman starts pulling out gadgets its all over. So it's not so much a matter of "fighting dirty", it's a matter of whether batman uses the items that make him the batman.

[Chuckg]

> I tend to give cap the benefit of the doubt on all this. The
> guy has fought plenty of dirty fighters, as has nearly every
> superhero.

Yes, but...

> It's just part of the daily fight against crime.

... it is not part of the daily grind to go up against dirty fighters *who are as skilled and creative at it as Batman*.

I mean, you can play chess every day of your life vs. people who actually are fairly good, but that doesn't mean you're guaranteed to be whipping Gary Kasparov's ass any time soon, does it?

Bruce is pretty much the king of, errr, "creatively and unexpectedly manipulating situational advantage", I believe is the proper euphemism for it.

Although, yes, provided that the utility belt is available, by all means haul it out first. Whatever gets it done the fastest, definitely.

(Sorry if I sound a little strident on this, but you have no idea of how many Captain America fanboys I've run into who have honestly tried to claim that the Mighty Shield would make Cap immune to flashbangs, sonic grenades, smoke, gas, being ninja'ed up on...)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Starlord
I'm trivializing it because it doesn't make sense. Batman is a relatively unknown entity to Cap, he'd expect just about anything. Simply using sneaky tricks from his utility belt is not 'unfair', he is merely using the weapons at his disposal. Cap would be ready for that (whether he could counter them is another matter).

Agreed, one of the reasons Nomad got the cheap shot on Cap was because Jack was like family to Steve. Steve let his guard down for a friend, he wouldn't do it for a total stranger like Bats.


To Cap all is fair once battle commences. 'Unfair' tactics would only work out of combat against Cap, perhaps depending on Bats getting Cap to trust him, then deceiving him.

Yup, that might do it.


Anyway, you had Bats himself admitting Cap is the better one-on-one fighter.

Huzzah! Given Bruce probably does have "Analyze" out the wazoo, It makes sense he wouldn't wate time fighting a superior hand to hand opponent unless he had to.


They're probably even as combat leaders.

Here I must protest. ("I am not a merry man!" :)) While, as always, it depends on who's writing, Cap has the proven edge in small unit tactics over about... oh, just about anyone in both universes. Heck, in my opinion, Nightwing is the better combat leader than his mentor. Batman is the premiere detective/deduction expert in his universe, Captain America is the tactic master on the side of the angels in his.




Recently, Cap was powerless against the Triune Understanding. He didn't understand how to deal with them. I imagine Bats infiltrating their organization and exposing them in one issue or so. ;)

Or just having Wayne Industries buy them out ;)

You can bet that after this cross over is done, barring some sort of mind wipe, Batman will be thinking of new ways to 'handle' the Avengers if they 'ever go rogue and we have to fight them again' and Captain America will be going over the battle and figuring out how they should handle the JLA if they ever must clash once more. Bats will look for individual weaknesses, Cap will look at the team picture and how to better coordinate on that scale.

It's just the way they think. :)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Chuckg
[BCap would be ready for something he doesn't know about?

'Staying alert for anything' is not the same thing as 'Knowing about everything that's going to come at you'.

To use Champions rulespeak, while Batman obviously wouldn't get the x2 STUN multiplier for an out of combat surprise, because Cap is obviously expecting attack, he *would* still be eligible for a Surprise Move bonus.

And as narrowly matched as they already are, that's just the edge he needs.
[/B]

Well, noone would know for sure what's coming next from either of them. That doesn't have anything to do with unfair or dirty tactics, just clever fighting. Cap isn't a 'clever' fighter??? For example, Bats couldn't be prepared for Caps to seemingly throw his shield away, meanwhile its bouncing off 5 walls, and streaking for his back. That's not 'dirty' or 'unfair', just clever.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Hermit
Here I must protest. ("I am not a merry man!" :)) While, as always, it depends on who's writing, Cap has the proven edge in small unit tactics over about... oh, just about anyone in both universes. Heck, in my opinion, Nightwing is the better combat leader than his mentor. Batman is the premiere detective/deduction expert in his universe, Captain America is the tactic master on the side of the angels in his.


Agreed for the most part. You alluded to where I was going later in your post. Cap would manage team tactics better. I think Batman can even things out because, whether leading or not, he would quickly deduce the villains weakness and use his teammates to exploit it.

[Chuckg]

[snip]
> Cap isn't a 'clever' fighter???

Cap is less clever than Batman. This is no shame... pretty much everybody short of intellects like Victor von Doom is less clever than Batman, especially inside one of Batman's specialities.

> For example, Bats couldn't be prepared for Caps to
> seemingly throw his shield away, meanwhile its bouncing off
> 5 walls, and streaking for his back. That's not 'dirty'
> or 'unfair', just clever.

Actually, Batman *can* quite logically be prepared for that... the concept of the "pretend to miss but actually boomerang around and hit 'em in the back when they're not expecting it" shot is something that Batman has not only repeatedly seen before(*), but repeatedly *used* before. If a fighter of Cap's obvious skill level makes that apparently senseless a miss, one of the *first* things that should come to his mind is "that damn thing's gonna rebound and try to bite me in the butt".

As for their relative benefits in team leadership -- Captain America, no contest. Nightwing might make Cap work for it(**), Batman wouldn't. Bruce's role on a team is optimized as 'guy who figures out what strategy needs to be executed and then hands it over to the team leader for execution", not as "guy who actually leads the team himself".



(*) From Oliver Queen, Connor Hawke, Captain Boomerang, and God alone knows how many others...


(**) The Avengers, for many years, have been composed of mostly professionals who take direction well, and even those prima donnas who don't still respect *Cap* too much to give him any trouble, even if they give other Avengers chairmen trouble.

Nightwing, OTOH, has been leading the Titans -- which, in all of that team's incarnations, has been unfavorably compared to herding kittens. Kittens with ADHD. On crack. :)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Actually, Batman *can* quite logically be prepared for that... the concept of the "pretend to miss but actually boomerang around and hit 'em in the back when they're not expecting it" shot is something that Batman has not only repeatedly seen before(*), but repeatedly *used* before.
Though I could see Cap throwing his shield and "missing" Batman and *oops* clobbering Flash.

My thoughts go back to all those Champions martial arts fights where it was who ever rolled well to hit, then rolled enough damage won the fight.
I think they both could win, but it would be a long fight at 1:1 odds.

[Chuckg]

> Though I could see Cap throwing his shield and "missing"
> Batman and *oops* clobbering Flash.

Unless Wally's having a bad day I can't, because assuming that the Flash isn't making the rookie speedster's mistake of repeatedly following a set route, predicting Flash's course that far in advance takes a precog, not a marksman.

OTOH, the *oops* clobbering somebody else is a valid tactic... at least, if there was anybody else on the JLA besides Batman who was either:

a) hittable with the shield, or

b) somebody whom hitting with the shield would do any good.

Given that six members of the JLA can soak at *least* artillery fire with their bare skin/force field (even Aquaman pretty much ignores small arms and STR 50 punches now), and the seventh has speed-based DCV I Don't Even Want To Think About it...

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Nightwing, OTOH, has been leading the Titans -- which, in all of that team's incarnations, has been unfavorably compared to herding kittens. Kittens with ADHD. On crack. :)

*L* On this we agree. In fact, it's one of the things that makes me regret not being a reader right now, I would love to see what Dick is doing with the Outsiders.

If you folks don't mind the topic variation....
Exactly who would you say is D.C.'s 'best leader'/tactician super hero? and who would you say is Marvel's best 'Detective'?

Off the top of my head, Nightwing might just have it for DC. Detective heroes seem almost rare in Marvel, perhaps Moon Knight? (Who is not what you'd call a top tier character)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Hermit
If you folks don't mind the topic variation....
Exactly who would you say is D.C.'s 'best leader'/tactician super hero? and who would you say is Marvel's best 'Detective'?


Mr. Terrific (currently in JSA) is probably the best tactician in the current DCU. Oracle is also very good, though she has obvious limits as a field leader. As for overall leadership, Mr. Terrific is probably more or less on par with Nightwing.

Wonder Woman *should* be very good at tactics and leadership, but this hasn't ever really been portrayed. Apparently Athena shorted her in the gift department.

One recent JSA showed Captain Marvel actually using his "Wisdom of Solomon" to good tactical effect, but that is ignored most of the time. For all he shows good tactical sense, I'm inclined to think the S in SHAZAM stands for Shemp.

As to MU detectives... yeesh, good question. Moon Knight might be it.

[SuperPheemy]

So, what we have is Bats and Cap squaring off in the middle of a JLA/Avengers brawl Royale. Both square off in classic Hong Kong Action Theatre master style (sans dubbing) and proceed to start fighting in a display that would leave Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan scratching their heads wondering "How dey do dat?".

Cap throws his shield, easily dodged by the Bat.
BUT, the shield was really aimed at Wonder Woman who, while fighting Vision might have been taken by surprise when the android fades into intangibility, allowing the shield to pass through him and take the Amazon by surprise.
HOWEVER, Wonder Woman with her reactions honed by deity-level reflexes and Amazonian combat training deflects the shield with her magic bracelets.
YET, Cap threw his Shield EXPECTING WW to deflect it, and actually counted on her deflecting the Shield, thus the deflection was actually a bounce attack sending the Shield towards
PLASTIC MAN! Who has stretched himself at knee-level to Quicksilver in a silly attempt to trip the speedster. Flung Shields don't bother Plas too much, and he simply takes the impact, bowing out like a trampoline and bouncing the Shield away. Sending it in a supposedly harmless direction, where it careens off a wall, the floor, the ceiling, and shoots back accross the battlefield.
JUST in time to fly through the wake of the Flash's passing, where the Shield's vector and velocity are changed enough that it screams toward Batman's unsuspecting head.
BUT the Bat was expecting an attack from behind and shifts his balance at the last moment to spin out of the way of the incoming projectile while using his change in style to sneak a devastating kick at Cap's midsection.
CAP takes the shot, rolls with it, catches his shield and with the momentum generated...

Watches helplessly as the writer, editor, and artist have simultaneous fatal annurisims trying to satisfy comic fandom.

In the aftermath...

Bruce goes slightly crazed, and goes on a crusade to eradicate such careless fandom before it kills again.

Steve is overwhelmed with guilt being involved in the deaths of innocent comic producers, he hangs up the shield and spends 24 issues of his comic filling in as a guest artist for "Family Circus".

The Fans continue to argue...

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
Steve is overwhelmed with guilt being involved in the deaths of innocent comic producers, he hangs up the shield and spends 24 issues of his comic filling in as a guest artist for "Family Circus".

Actually, that's Kyle. :D

Hilarious post, though!

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy [/B]
Nothin' but net. Yeah! Now that's how a fight between Cap and Batman would go!

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Chuckg
[snip]
> Cap isn't a 'clever' fighter???

Cap is less clever than Batman. This is no shame... pretty much everybody short of intellects like Victor von Doom is less clever than Batman, especially inside one of Batman's specialities.


Yes, Cap is less clever than Batman...but that's not what I said. You'll not convince me that Batman is a more clever 'fighter' (which IS what I said) than Captain America. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

In this particular context, we have Batman essentially admitting Cap could beat him in a one-on-one fight. To use your own words...this is no shame. Cap is all about fighting. Doesn't make him the better superhero, Bats maybe falls short of him there, but surpasses him in many non-martial skills.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Hermit
*L* On this we agree. In fact, it's one of the things that makes me regret not being a reader right now, I would love to see what Dick is doing with the Outsiders.


Hmmm. I can't see a scenario where Nightwing could boss Thor around like Captain America can.

Nightwing: "Thor! Fetch my slippers!"

Thor: "I SAY THEE NAY, STRIPLING!!"

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Starlord
Hmmm. I can't see a scenario where Nightwing could boss Thor around.

Nightwing: "Thor! Fetch my slippers!"

Thor: "I SAY THEE NAY, STRIPLING!!"

Maybe, but Nightwing has studied manipulation from a master

Nightwing: "My slippers so far away, but what champion of justice can I rely on to retieve them?"

Thor: "Fear not! The Odinson shall return thy slippers to thee, or die gloriously in the attempt!"

Nightwing: "Thanks Thor." ;)

[SuperPheemy]

A night in the Nightwing-led Avenger's Mansion

*thunder rolls through the base* Goldilocks shouts "FOR THE HONOR OF VALHALLA!!!!" and proceeds to Hammer-fly through walls, floors and ceilings in search of Dick's slippers.

Sadly, "Nuffles" the team puppy has dragged Nightwing's slippers into her puppy-shelter to chew them to bits. But, undaunted the Odinson looms over the growling puppy.

"Fenris Wolf I have struggled against and prevailed! Aye, I have fought beast and monster without number, so yeild to me the slippers of Grayson and I will show thee mercy."

The puppy yipps angrily and snapps at the ankles of the Thunder God

"SO BE IT! Thou has earned the wrath of the GOD OF THUNDER! BY ASGARD, GRASON'S SLIPPLERS WILL! BE! MIIIINE!"

Thunder again rolls through the base, lighting plays about the Uru hammer and rain washes down in sheets. With all the might of his Aesir blood, Thor brings his mighty hammer down towards Nuffles.

And stopps, lifts the puppy up, scratches her behind the ears, and gives Dick a pair of puppy-chewed, sopping wet slippers for his trouble.

(Come on, you didn't really think I'd have Thor smash an innocent cute widdle puppy did you? Shame on you!)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy

(Come on, you didn't really think I'd have Thor smash an innocent cute widdle puppy did you? Shame on you!)

You just have to wonder if Thor doesn't get a kick out of making folks sweat though :) Norse humor ;)

[Lord Liaden]

One scene that stays in my mind from the pre-Amalgam Marvel/DC crossover from a few years ago, was Captain America fighting Bane.

Cap hurled his shield at Bane, who dodged under it and seized the Captain by neck and leg, heaving him over his head: "By relinquishing your shield you've left yourself open to my back-breaking assault! What kind of strategy will they call that, I wonder?"

Meanwhile, of course, the shield is arcing back, clouts Bane in the back of his head and knocks him face-first into the dirt, out cold. Cap calmly recovers his shield and says, "The kind that works."

Steve Rogers is a man who's been in actual modern warfare, who's participated in black ops missions since WW II. He's probably not in Batman's league in cunning, but I don't think he lags far behind.

It seems to me that Kurt Busiek is trying his best to be impartial in this series and not play favorites with the characters. I'm not sure most of us could resist that temptation. ;)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
It seems to me that Kurt Busiek is trying his best to be impartial in this series and not play favorites with the characters. I'm not sure most of us could resist that temptation. ;)

Indeed, better man than I, by gadfrey :)

[austenandrews]

Meh, that's not "resisting temptation," that's "wussying out." How much more cliche can you get than two heroes fighting, only to end in a draw? Yawn. Why bother? Busiek needs to show some balls. He did it with Supes and Thor, now keep it going!

-AA

[Chuckg]

Re: Batman acknowledging that Captain America was the marginally better hand-to-hand fighter...

... well, yes.

I'm just pointing out that it ain't all about the hand-to-hand fight, even if both parties are at hand-to-hand range. :)

[Worldmaker]

Screw Batman and Captain America... I want to know why Superman wasn't bitchslapping Thor around like Supes was an angry pimp and Thor a 14-year old hooker...

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Worldmaker
Screw Batman and Captain America... I want to know why Superman wasn't bitchslapping Thor around like Supes was an angry pimp and Thor a 14-year old hooker...

Well they already made it ridiculously hard enough to fathom by having Supes actually win against a superior opponent, your suggestion would just be totally unbelievable. ;)

[Blue]

I contend that if Thor were a DC character facing superman, I think Thor would win. It's not because there's some kind of favoritism going on here; it's just that the two companies have decidedly different approaches to playing "Gods". DC gods are more "godly" in their power.

Like everyone else, I think the fight should have been longer. But I would have had the same result. The statement "He may have been the toughest opponent I ever..." wasn't supported by the small amount of the fight they showed.

I would have had Thor seriously hurt Superman with his magic hammer. Then I'd have superman stop the hammer with his bare hands and the result we all know from the book. I think the result was just; however it was too short to be satisfying.

And that is the problem with having 1.5 billion characters involved in a 4 issue series.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer
Mr. Terrific (currently in JSA) is probably the best tactician in the current DCU. Oracle is also very good, though she has obvious limits as a field leader. As for overall leadership, Mr. Terrific is probably more or less on par with Nightwing.

Wonder Woman *should* be very good at tactics and leadership, but this hasn't ever really been portrayed. Apparently Athena shorted her in the gift department.

One recent JSA showed Captain Marvel actually using his "Wisdom of Solomon" to good tactical effect, but that is ignored most of the time. For all he shows good tactical sense, I'm inclined to think the S in SHAZAM stands for Shemp.

As to MU detectives... yeesh, good question. Moon Knight might be it. Spidey, back when I read his books, was a pretty good detective.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Blue
I contend that if Thor were a DC character facing superman, I think Thor would win. It's not because there's some kind of favoritism going on here; it's just that the two companies have decidedly different approaches to playing "Gods". DC gods are more "godly" in their power.

Like everyone else, I think the fight should have been longer. But I would have had the same result. The statement "He may have been the toughest opponent I ever..." wasn't supported by the small amount of the fight they showed.

I would have had Thor seriously hurt Superman with his magic hammer. Then I'd have superman stop the hammer with his bare hands and the result we all know from the book. I think the result was just; however it was too short to be satisfying.

And that is the problem with having 1.5 billion characters involved in a 4 issue series. No catching of the hammer. Avoiding the hammer okay - catching hammer is just bad.

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Agent X
No catching of the hammer. Avoiding the hammer okay - catching hammer is just bad.

We're talking about a hero capable of moving fast enough to catch bullets out of the air. In comparison, snatching something as large and as slow-moving as Mjolnir out of the air would have been child's play. The hammer never should have been a problem for Superman.

And the person who says Superman isn't "worthy" to pick the thing up needs to go back and read some Superman books.

So it should have come down to strength vs. strength, and I'm sorry, but Superman is all over Thor in the strength department.

As I said, it should have been a bitchslap, with Thor crying for his Mommy at the end.

[Jeff T.]

Posted this on the NGD Forums, and thought it'd go well here too. :)

<img src="http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=158123">

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Starlord
Posted this on the NGD Forums, and thought it'd go well here too. :)


Funny!

Total bullshit, but funny!

[JmOz]

Actualy I agree, Superman is not worthy of the Power of Thor, and I will tell you why.

He is not a warrior, the vikings valued warriors, a man who goes insane after killing three people who DESERVED TO DIE (they killed an entire plannet save superman, and an artificial life form) is not a warrior.

Same with Captain Marvel (DC)

Wonder Woman however (Who is a warrior) should be able to lift the hammer

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by JmOz
Actualy I agree, Superman is not worthy of the Power of Thor, and I will tell you why.

He is not a warrior, the vikings valued warriors, a man who goes insane after killing three people who DESERVED TO DIE (they killed an entire plannet save superman, and an artificial life form) is not a warrior.

Same with Captain Marvel (DC)

Wonder Woman however (Who is a warrior) should be able to lift the hammer

Interesting opinion.

Totally contradicted by the history of Thor as a Marvel Comics character, but still an interesting theory.

In the history of Thor as a Marvel character, it has always been the nobility that matters when it comes to using Mjolnir, and not the "warriordom".

Thor lost the use of the hammer temporarily when his ethical character... not his bravery or courage or skill as a fighter, but his ETHICAL CHARACTER... was no longer up to snuff; and let me point out that Beta Ray Bill, for example, was a scientist and an explorer, not a warrior, before he met Thor... but he was a *noble* and *goodly* scientist and explorer, and he had no problem hefting the hammer at all.

(And yes, Beta Ray Bill is a warrior *now*, but you made warriordom a condition of using the hammer, and Bill's warriordom was thrust upon him ex-post facto).

Now, anyone here want to try and say that Superman isn't as noble as Thor, and thus not worthy?

[JmOz]

I agree the nobility of spirit is part of it, I am just saying that being a warrior is part of it too:

Ahh but I do know my Thor history so let us look at those who have lifted the hammer


Don Blake: Actualy he was Thor in disguise

Captain America/Steve Rogers: He served his time in WWII and was more than willing to kill when the time calls for it (However he is reluctant to do so)

Beta Ray Bill: The guy who was willing (AND CAPABLE) of killing Thor to make sure his people got to saftey

Sigmond (IIRC): Thor in disguise again

Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson: Originaly Bounded with Thor, and then Thor was "repressed" into him.

There is only one individual I do not know about, he is from the future, I fear I know very little of him

The only other four people I know of to lift it are Odin (Want to debate this one?), Wonder Woman, Thor's son (Guardians of the Galaxy), and I seem to recall a walk on of a Cop who handed it to him, but can't swear to that one.

So unless Future boy was a librarian, I think my theroy stands...

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by JmOz
I agree the nobility of spirit is part of it, I am just saying that being a warrior is part of it too:

Ahh but I do know my Thor history so let us look at those who have lifted the hammer


Don Blake: Actualy he was Thor in disguise

Captain America/Steve Rogers: He served his time in WWII and was more than willing to kill when the time calls for it (However he is reluctant to do so)

Beta Ray Bill: The guy who was willing (AND CAPABLE) of killing Thor to make sure his people got to saftey

Sigmond (IIRC): Thor in disguise again

Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson: Originaly Bounded with Thor, and then Thor was "repressed" into him.

There is only one individual I do not know about, he is from the future, I fear I know very little of him

The only other four people I know of to lift it are Odin (Want to debate this one?), Wonder Woman, Thor's son (Guardians of the Galaxy), and I seem to recall a walk on of a Cop who handed it to him, but can't swear to that one.

So unless Future boy was a librarian, I think my theroy stands...


So all it takes is a willingness to kill someone else and nobility? So anyone who was noble and *did* kill someone is thus qualified, because you do not kill someone without being willing to do so. Superman, for example.

Sorry, but I still think you're off base.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Worldmaker
We're talking about a hero capable of moving fast enough to catch bullets out of the air. In comparison, snatching something as large and as slow-moving as Mjolnir out of the air would have been child's play. The hammer never should have been a problem for Superman.

And the person who says Superman isn't "worthy" to pick the thing up needs to go back and read some Superman books.

So it should have come down to strength vs. strength, and I'm sorry, but Superman is all over Thor in the strength department.

As I said, it should have been a bitchslap, with Thor crying for his Mommy at the end. You don't read enough Thor, apparently.

[austenandrews]

By the old definition of the enchantment, Superman should be able to lift the hammer. He's been retconned so many times by now that you'd need a lawyer and an archivist to figure it out. But I'd be surprised if Supers didn't lift the hammer during this series.

-AA

[Lord Liaden]

I can understand the "warrior" argument. It's not so much having killed, or being willing to kill, but accepting that killing may sometimes be necessary, which Superman adamantly refuses. That's more pasteurized than Viking culture, where killing your enemies (or being killed by them) in honorable combat was the greatest glory; but this is the twenty-first century, after all. ;)

Reminds me of the old Manhunter miniseries from the 1970's, where Manhunter is going after his enemies and Batman offers to accompany him, but Manhunter refuses, saying to him: "You have your ways of operating, and within them you're fine. But you won't kill. And this is a killing mission."

BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0309/16/jlaavengers4.jpg

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0309/16/jlaavengers4.jpg


Well... I won't gloat, as I am above those things. But I will say "I told you so!"

[J4y]

BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stor...laavengers4.jpg

All in all a very poorly drawn picture. Proportions suck, his grip on the hammer is wrong and holding the shield up there to protect, what exactly, the air beside his left shoulder? Must be to make sure you can still see his chest (otherwise we'd have no idea it's Superman if we can't see the 'S', right?) If thats Superman then the 'S' is for "Special."

I seriously doubt thats the picture for the cover.

[Lord Liaden]

I guess you could take up the veracity of the drawing with Comics Continuum - they're the ones who posted it. :) It certainly looks like a Perez drawing to me, and I think the odd proportions and positioning are just for maximum visual impact. It certainly is an unprecedented image in the history of comics.

[austenandrews]

I love the idea of that image, but I agree that the rendering is Liefeld-wrong.

-AA

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by austenandrews
I love the idea of that image, but I agree that the rendering is Liefeld-wrong.


Yeah, but its obviously meant to be more cool-looking than realistic... a concept common to comic book covers.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by austenandrews
I love the idea of that image, but I agree that the rendering is Liefeld-wrong.

-AA

The image is cool (and if it's not Perez it's a good imitator), but not the 'idea' of it in my opinion. In other words, if this turns out to be a 'let's-give-all-our-powers-and-weapons-to-Supes-and-he'll-save-the-day' type of ending, I'll be disappointed.

It also might indicate that Superman has gone crazy or is mentally controlled and has 'taken' the items. I won't like that either. Supes may be the greatest comics hero every, but none of the heroes should be that 'singled out' in this series.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I can understand the "warrior" argument. It's not so much having killed, or being willing to kill, but accepting that killing may sometimes be necessary, which Superman adamantly refuses. That's more pasteurized than Viking culture, where killing your enemies (or being killed by them) in honorable combat was the greatest glory; but this is the twenty-first century, after all. ;)

Reminds me of the old Manhunter miniseries from the 1970's, where Manhunter is going after his enemies and Batman offers to accompany him, but Manhunter refuses, saying to him: "You have your ways of operating, and within them you're fine. But you won't kill. And this is a killing mission."

BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0309/16/jlaavengers4.jpg

Thanks LL, I needed the support (and glad someone didn't think I was crazy)

Someone at work today however pointed out the personality shift supes went through in Our World at War, so he might be worthy under my idea.

[John Desmarais]

Originally posted by KawangaKid
As for Cap vs. Bats, they did a little dance... check out each others stances, combat abilities, reflexes... very little combat. Finally Bats admits that Cap would beat him after a very long battle. Then they both decide to get to the bottom of whoever is manipulating the two teams.

Actually, what was said was "It's conceivable you could beat me..." Not exactly what I would call a full out admission that Cap would win, just an acknowledgement that he could.

John D.

[Bazza]

I like Scott's interpretation of the "worthy" quoted below:


Originally posted by GestaltBennie
What would I do with Thor? Hmm? [snip]
As a gag, we might also have a police dog fetch the hammer for Thor (since nothing bars animals from being worthy of the power of Thor) and end up being taken by Odin to serve among his hounds. [snip] Scott Bennie

puts a new slant on things, eh? :)

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Regarding Batman/Cap, my personal opinion is that if they fought 100 times, Cap would win 51 of the battles. For all the Bat supporters, note that Batman beats him 49 times...so no whining. I could easily write a scenario with either man winning...and it would be completely plausible. I gave Cap a slight edge for a couple reasons. One....difference in mentality. Batman likes to plan(and don't try to say he doesn't) while Cap likes to improvise. Generally, the latter talent is of a bit more use in a fight.Two, Cap is probably one of the few people in either universe who is a better martial artist than Bats. Cap has more experience and has a soldier's background, which Bats definitely does not have(unless DC has revised him somehow). Plus, Cap does have a physical edge, however slight. Could Bats beat Cap? Certainly. And probably anyone else he puts his mind to. So could Cap in my book. Again, to all the Bats supporters, I can easily write a win for either one....as I could for most DC/Marvel encounters.
As to the Supes lifting Thor's Hammer thing, it's more telling who hasn't lifted the hammer than who has. Like Sub Mariner could not...even though he's a noble soul. I guess the real question is just how noble one has to be? Overall, I'm guessing Supes can probably lift the hammer. However, I wouldn't say this judging by his behavior in the miniseries which has...to be quite frank...been very odd. It's like he's turned into Super Cynic Man, dissing the Marvelverse heroes at every opportunity. Has anyone else noticed this....or is this something going on in his own book(which I don't read regularly)?

Rob

[Southern Cross]

True,Supes IS behaving oddly.Outside of John Byrne's run on the Superman books I can't remember him being so arrogant.

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
True,Supes IS behaving oddly.Outside of John Byrne's run on the Superman books I can't remember him being so arrogant.

Same with Cap... my money's on the two of them being mentally manipulated by the Gamemasters to make sure the two teams didn't go "Hey, we're both being set up... let's do something about it" very early in the game.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Worldmaker
Same with Cap... my money's on the two of them being mentally manipulated by the Gamemasters to make sure the two teams didn't go "Hey, we're both being set up... let's do something about it" very early in the game. I thought it as much as said so in the book.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Worldmaker
Same with Cap... my money's on the two of them being mentally manipulated by the Gamemasters to make sure the two teams didn't go "Hey, we're both being set up... let's do something about it" very early in the game.

Same here, but Cap seems more 'fuzzy'. Except for his 'fascist' comments early on...he appeared much more 'in character' than Superman. And agreeing to help Batman seems to go against the theory as well.

[austenandrews]

Concerning Cap versus Bats, it's one of those situational things. Put them in a cage match and Cap should win 75% of the time. But that's not how Batman operates. He'd lose at least that often in cage matches against Bane or Clayface or an army of other opponents. You could argue that Batman's victories come from avoiding such direct confrontations. His famous ongoing wars (with the Joker, the Penguin, etc.) are about controlling the battlefield much more than raw fighting ability. In other words, pit solo Batman against solo Cap in a dark warehouse district, and there's no question who would win 75% of the time.

-AA

[Agent X]

Originally posted by austenandrews
Concerning Cap versus Bats, it's one of those situational things. Put them in a cage match and Cap should win 75% of the time. But that's not how Batman operates. He'd lose at least that often in cage matches against Bane or Clayface or an army of other opponents. You could argue that Batman's victories come from avoiding such direct confrontations. His famous ongoing wars (with the Joker, the Penguin, etc.) are about controlling the battlefield much more than raw fighting ability. In other words, pit solo Batman against solo Cap in a dark warehouse district, and there's no question who would win 75% of the time.

-AA Au contraire, Cap is quite capable of controlling the battlefield. When it comes to solving riddles, I give it to Batman. When it comes to two guys squaring off and knowing the other guy is after them, it's a dead heat except for Captain America's super-soldier enhancements that give him a slight advantage. Batman would win his share but Cap would win slightly more.

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Agent X
When it comes to two guys squaring off and knowing the other guy is after them, it's a dead heat except for Captain America's super-soldier enhancements that give him a slight advantage. Batman would win his share but Cap would win slightly more.


He doesn't have them anymore. His physiology is 100% normal. They had a rather long story that culminated in Cap's learning that the Super Soldier serum wore off a long, long time ago... he's just been keeping in shape, and the training never wears off.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Worldmaker
He doesn't have them anymore. His physiology is 100% normal. They had a rather long story that culminated in Cap's learning that the Super Soldier serum wore off a long, long time ago... he's just been keeping in shape, and the training never wears off. Lame.

[JmOz]

Funny last I heard was that it had rewritten his DNA and that it could not be purged from his system...

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by JmOz
Funny last I heard was that it had rewritten his DNA and that it could not be purged from his system...

Heh. Wouldn't surprise me if they retconned the retcon.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm just impressed that after all these years of being thwarted by just about everybody, it looks like one of the Grandmaster's schemes may actually have worked. :eek:

[Agent X]

If he gets to slap around Krona, I'm wondering who is waiting in the wings?

Are they going to pull a switcheroo and have Thanos and some by-blow of the Anti-monitor show up? Something else?

[Lord Liaden]

Let's not forget Metron - he must have some stake in what's going on, and he's always been a wild card.

We've also had Eternity and (I think) Kismet prominently displayed near the beginning of the first two issues. I wouldn't be surprised if they would become involved in some way.

[Ranxerox]

Originally posted by Agent X
If he gets to slap around Krona, I'm wondering who is waiting in the wings?

Are they going to pull a switcheroo and have Thanos and some by-blow of the Anti-monitor show up? Something else?

I don't think that anyone is waiting in the wings. Judging from the items that he has acquired, Grandmaster should be all powerful. I expect issue #3 to start with Grandmaster casually disposing of Krona and setting himself up as the man in charge.

Now what do you do if you are the Grandmaster and now running everything? D'uh, you hold a contest.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Ranxerox
I don't think that anyone is waiting in the wings. Judging from the items that he has acquired, Grandmaster should be all powerful. I expect issue #3 to start with Grandmaster casually disposing of Krona and setting himself up as the man in charge.

Now what do you do if you are the Grandmaster and now running everything? D'uh, you hold a contest. That sounds pretty logical. That doesn't mean that's what is going to happen but I like the sound of it. I'm sure if it goes down this way Krona will have something to say about it in issue 4.:)

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Agent X
Au contraire, Cap is quite capable of controlling the battlefield. When it comes to solving riddles, I give it to Batman. When it comes to two guys squaring off and knowing the other guy is after them, it's a dead heat except for Captain America's super-soldier enhancements that give him a slight advantage. Batman would win his share but Cap would win slightly more.

I'm not trying to slight Cap's smarts & tactical abilities, far from it. But come on, Batman's got so many toys that with enough preparation, he practically gave Superman a run for his money.

-AA

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Starlord
The image is cool (and if it's not Perez it's a good imitator), but not the 'idea' of it in my opinion. In other words, if this turns out to be a 'let's-give-all-our-powers-and-weapons-to-Supes-and-he'll-save-the-day' type of ending, I'll be disappointed.


Well that is the front cover. There is red energy flowing in the background and where the lightning hits the edge of the frame a little blue maybe green energy. All of that red material could be Supe's cape, but it could also be some red material drifting from the back cover, which I suspect will be a Marvel character with a couple of DC items. I vote for Wanda with GL's Ring and Diana's Lasso.

[J4y]

I'm not trying to slight Cap's smarts & tactical abilities, far from it. But come on, Batman's got so many toys that with enough preparation, he practically gave Superman a run for his money.

Batman has kicked Superman's butt at least once. Just goes to prove the million monkey theory, or in this cause, writers. ;)

I still can't help but cringe at how bloody aweful that picture is. I have trouble believing a profession artist could do something that bad.

[Brandi]

Originally posted by J4y

I still can't help but cringe at how bloody aweful that picture is. I have trouble believing a profession artist could do something that bad.

It's not great, but at least it's not Rob Liefeld, the man who gave Captain America bitch-tits:

<img src="http://members.aol.com/ddv106/dark/liefeld_cap.gif">

[TheImperialKhan]

Oh, that is bad.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by austenandrews
I'm not trying to slight Cap's smarts & tactical abilities, far from it. But come on, Batman's got so many toys that with enough preparation, he practically gave Superman a run for his money.

-AA Don't forget Captain America can borrow toys from Mr. Fantastic and Tony Stark.

[TheImperialKhan]

Frankly I think Thor hit it right on the head when he called Supes a "sneering, arrogant Jackel". Because that's exactly how he was behaving.

Now it's been a while since I've read any of his comics but I don't remember him acting like this. The rest of the JLA don't offer any comments about it so I can only guess it isn't that unusual.

So I'd like to know, When did Superman become so intolerant?

[Lord Liaden]

Actually the League does comment on Superman's atypical behavior in the first issue of the series. On p. 32 when Supes makes his first tirade against the heroes of Marvel-Earth, there's a panel showing his comrades with startled expressions. Then when the JLA confronts the Avengers on DC-Earth, Plastic Man asks Green Lantern sotto voce, "Uh, GL... is it just me, or is Big Blue layin' it on a little thick...?" To which Kyle replies, "It's not just you. I don't know what's going on, but...". The Avengers react similarly to Captain America's "fascist" comments.

It's clear that those two, who would be the first in their respective teams to talk before fighting, are being mentally manipulated toward conflict.

[J4y]

It's not great, but at least it's not Rob Liefeld, the man who gave Captain America bitch-tits:

AHHH! My eyes! The goggles, they do nothing!

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Ranxerox
Now what do you do if you are the Grandmaster and now running everything? D'uh, you hold a contest.

Say, you're absolutely right! Maybe we're gonna get our matchups done right after all. The Grandmaster pits Superman & Thor, Hawkeye & Green Arrow, et al. in "cage matches" while some subset of other heroes struggle to free Krona and Galactus for a humongous cosmic show-down. There's hope yet! Suddenly the choice of the Grandmaster doesn't seem so amazingly lame as it did at first.

-AA

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Brandi
It's not great, but at least it's not Rob Liefeld, the man who gave Captain America bitch-tits:

<img src="http://members.aol.com/ddv106/dark/liefeld_cap.gif">

:eek:

*breaks down weeping*

Oh Captain, My captain!
Rob freaking unmanned thee!

[lemming]

Originally posted by Hermit
:eek:

*breaks down weeping*

Oh Captain, My captain!
Rob freaking unmanned thee!
I wouldn't call them man-breasts. It just seems that Rob thought the Captain was treated much like those specially bred turkeys for Thanksgiving.

[austenandrews]

Liefeld even got the costume wrong. Sad.

-AA

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by austenandrews
Liefeld even got the costume wrong. Sad.

-AA

I think the modification to Cap's mask is from the short lived "Heroes Reborn" attempted relaunch of the Marvel line, after the events of the overblown Onslaught saga. I'm still not sure whether that all disappeared so quickly out of design from the start, or because Marvel abruptly realized how lame much of it was and ditched it.

[Vigil]

Hey Guys,

I have to say, not having seen Isuue #2 yet, that based on my 30+ years of experience with the 2 characters that Cappy would mop the floor with Bats.

Yeah Batman is way smart and has a high PRE but Captain America is the Ultimate Combat Machine! He's used to fighting in situations and against opponents that even Bats would find daunting...Korvac (Avengers 177) and Kang in the epic Kang Dynasty storyline. And note, that both of those opponents acknowledged that Captain America is extraordinary, in a class all of his own.

Now Bats may be the greatest human combatant in comics but Caps skills in combat exceed what a human is capable of by a long chalk. How else would he duke it out with the guys I mentioned above, and many others, when seemingly greater heroes have already fallen.

Sorry Batfans but I think you should bow your collective heads to the Supreme Combat Machine and set your sights a little bit lower, say maybe on the Black Panther.

But then again, the Panther does have super-augmented jungle born senses and reactions and the sacred spirit of the Panther God within him...

Later,

Vigil

;)

[Azimer the Mad]

I honestly think that Supes isn;t mind-controlled.

Cap thought the the JLA were bigtime fascists who had it too easy. He changed his opinion looking at Jason Todd's costume.

I believe that Clark's on edge because the Marvel Universe represents his worst nightmare: A world where, for all their powers, the heroes don't make much of a difference. To deal with his own self-esteem problems using the Avengers as a manifestation of failiure. Remember, at heart he's still a Kansas farmboy who wonders often if he does enough.

By beating the Avengers, he's subconsciously proving to himself that he's a better hero, and that he won't let his world get that bad.

The fact that the Avengers have Thor sends the point home, because Thor is amazingly powerful, and the MU is STILL so screwed up. The "LIves matter!" comment seems to add credence to the idea that he's truly terrified by his perception of the Marvel Universe as a dark and possible reflection of his home.

Also, if Supes is mind-controlled, there's going to be another Hawkeye-Squadron Supreme comment. We can only hope he doesn;t have the justification.:D

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Vigil
Hey Guys,

IYeah Batman is way smart and has a high PRE but Captain America is the Ultimate Combat Machine! He's used to fighting in situations and against opponents that even Bats would find daunting...Korvac (Avengers 177) and Kang in the epic Kang Dynasty storyline.

;)

And Bats took out 4 White Martians when no one else on the JLA took more than one. I think that is a fair equivilent of fighting opponents that others find daunting. :D

Not figuring that he would win, but that is would be oh too close to call. It all would depends on whose player had better die rolls.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I think the modification to Cap's mask is from the short lived "Heroes Reborn" attempted relaunch of the Marvel line, after the events of the overblown Onslaught saga. I'm still not sure whether that all disappeared so quickly out of design from the start, or because Marvel abruptly realized how lame much of it was and ditched it. LL, Correct, that version is from Heroes Reborn. As I remember it, the whole Heroes Reborn "maxi-series" was Marvel's way of screwing the fans to appeal the characters to Hollywood types. If judging from X-Men, X-2, Spider-Man, Hulk and Daredevil, from Marvel's point of view Heroes Reborn was a sucess. From a fanboy point of view, there were bits in there I thoughly enjoyed.

[Jeff T.]

I enjoyed the FF run in Heroes Reborn, but then I freely admit to being an unabashed Jim Lee fanboy.

[csyphrett]

Batman did hold his own against 8-9 X-men, taking out half the team before Jean Grey got involved.
CES

[csyphrett]

I think you are thinking about DC vs Marvel. Superman is having trouble restraining Venom, until the spiderman clone shows up. Batman didn't meet any X-Men in that, but did clock Bull's Eye.

I think I am talking about the second series where the X-men show up at Dr. Strange's house where Batman is investigating, and they duke it out until the JLA arrive. Then they merge into the X-league.

Been a couple years, so I could be wrong.
CES

[austenandrews]

Good grief, how many cross-company comic books have they released??

-AA

[csyphrett]

Didn't he tie Venom up in a girder once Spiderman made on the scene. I seem to remember Superman took hits that didn't seem to bother him.

Something like "As long as he is hitting me, he can't go after a bystander."

Or am I wrong?
CES

[Blue]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
It still made Superman look like a third rate pushover in that he couldn't keep Venom in line.

It should have been a case of Bruce Lee on Crystal Meth holding down Gary Coleman after three bottles of NyQuil. Yeh, the problem is that when the writers get one of these one-on-one fights they have to do something to keep it interesting. What they should have done was just bring in a whole bunch more villains or give superman a disadvantage (like innocent bystanders to protect or kryptonite issues, or do something to say Venom is way pumped up beyond his normal abilities).

On a side note, the only problem I have with the JLA/Avengers thing is... the seemingly endless wait for the next issue!!!!!!!

[Stone]

It is an interesting concept and one that I'm sure many fans like myself have been waiting to see, but the difference in power levels between the two is drastic. JLA should win this hands down. As far as the Cap vs Batman issue, from the scene as presented in the book Cap wins hands down. Now if its in a dark alley or warehouse where Bats can plan or set up a sneak attack, then he wins. Face to face combat, Cap has Batman beat.

[csyphrett]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
It still made Superman look like a third rate pushover in that he couldn't keep Venom in line.

It should have been a case of Bruce Lee on Crystal Meth holding down Gary Coleman after three bottles of NyQuil.

I guess a lot of writers forget how easy it is for superman to do things, especially with his combined strength and speed. A typical thing when I was reading comic books.

CES

[Vigil]

I'm not sure how this discussion segued from Issue #2 of the JLA/AVENGERS crossover to earlier and far less illustrious ones but to get back on track...

I finally had a chance to sit down and completely read the issue as opposed to just skimming it but all in all...in a word...yeeesh! What a stinker of an issue! The fight between Cappy and Bats was a non (and I mean non as in actually never happened as opposed to non as in the sense of happened but was a letdown) event. So since it never happened there's nothing to discuss so let's move onto other areas.

The Thor/Superman fracas was almost as big of a non-happening and bears little more comment. Thor's mystical nature, Mjolnir's supernatural/magical essence and Thor's vastly superior fighting experience seemed to have ben completaly forgotten as did Superman's vastly superior speed and raw strength. So, since neither seemed to bear any true resemblance to the actual characters beyond looking like them, there's really no basis for comparison and nothing to talk about here either. Pity, cause it would have been cool if the actual characters had fought and I'd hoped for way, way more from a writer of Busiek's ability.

That being said, what a stinker of an issue. Not only was the plot all over the place in the worst way but there was absolutely no attempt made to mainatain any sort of consistency or continuity at all. The only guideline ssemed to have been that the JLA have to win in order to maintainthe unheralded plot twist which I'll plop in at the end as opposed to develop during the actual issue. God, does that suck! I'd hoped for much more and got much much less. Which is a complete shame given the prmising beginning of issue one.

Oh well, nuff said and back to the drawing board. Maybe in another 20 years a real crossover and not a soulless blatantly pandering to DC piece of crap will occur. Maybe but not with this team.

Vigil

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Stone
It is an interesting concept and one that I'm sure many fans like myself have been waiting to see, but the difference in power levels between the two is drastic. JLA should win this hands down. As far as the Cap vs Batman issue, from the scene as presented in the book Cap wins hands down. Now if its in a dark alley or warehouse where Bats can plan or set up a sneak attack, then he wins. Face to face combat, Cap has Batman beat. Captain America is a master of more than melee. I'm getting tired of the "Batman can beat anybody if he gets to plan routine." Read some Cap and think about his background.

[Stone]

no offense was intended to Cap. Believe me, I'm not a fan of the current Batman. Personally, I find Batman to be one of the most annoying characters around. He started off as a detective with some MA training (judo I think), and now he can beat anyone he is put against....its stupid.

[assault]

He was actually more of a brawler in his first appearance. Come to think of it, he wasn't much of a detective, either!

Having the Police Commissioner as a contact is kind of nice. Just ask the Shadow. :)

Alan

[Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Agent X
Captain America is a master of more than melee. I'm getting tired of the "Batman can beat anybody if he gets to plan routine." Read some Cap and think about his background.

Why are you assuming we haven't done that already and *still* come to the conclusion that Captain America would get slapped?

[Lord Liaden]

Easy, gang. No need to draw the Cap vs. Bats battleline here. Neither side is going to convince the other, and we don't get an "official" opinion from this series other than that it would be very close, which most of us agree to anyway. :)

I do think it appropriate that, since these two are the members of their respective teams with the most overall savvy, they would have little interest in a pointless duel in the face of much more urgent concerns.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Easy, gang. No need to draw the Cap vs. Bats battleline here. Neither side is going to convince the other, and we don't get an "official" opinion from this series other than that it would be very close, which most of us agree to anyway. :)

I do think it appropriate that, since these two are the members of their respective teams with the most overall savvy, they would have little interest in a pointless duel in the face of much more urgent concerns. My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply. Would Batman be better off if he had time to prepare for Cap? Certainly. Would Cap be better off if he had time to prepare for Batman? Certainly. Does Batman have access to great gear? Certainly. Does Cap have access to great gear? Certainly. Is Batman a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly. Is Captain America a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly - and this is the one that the Batman Camp choose to discount.

[austenandrews]

Nah, I considered all those factors, and I still like Bats under those conditions. Not that I'm saying Cap would be a pushover, far from it. Neither would Bats be a pushover in a standup fight. But each has an advantage under certain conditions.

I do agree with Stone, though, that both characters had their power levels adjusted upward by virtue of membership in their respective teams.

-AA

[Chuckg]

> My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them
> seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to
> plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in
> Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply.

Faulty logic, and reductio ad absurdum besides. All the planning in the world cannot overcome the basic physical limitations that: a) it still takes a finite amount of time to plan and b) Batman can only be in one place at one time. Hence, the continued presence of crime in Gotham no matter *how* good he is.

OTOH, vs. a single foe (such as Cap), that limitation isn't really coming into play...



You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet. :rolleyes:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Agent X
My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply. Would Batman be better off if he had time to prepare for Cap? Certainly. Would Cap be better off if he had time to prepare for Batman? Certainly. Does Batman have access to great gear? Certainly. Does Cap have access to great gear? Certainly. Is Batman a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly. Is Captain America a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly - and this is the one that the Batman Camp choose to discount.

Blind internal compromise is part of human nature. When faced with the probable defeat of your hero, you manifest a situation in which that hero might win. Cap wins fights...better than Batman in my opinion. Batman is great in a fight. What makes him different and unique from Cap is that he solves crimes, deduces mysteries, and is a master manipulator.

Cap becomes a victim of the simple idealist syndrome. For some reason because of his nature, he is not seen as clever. You also, unfortunately, see signs of this in DC's portrayal of Superman. Batman beat Superman? Eh. Wow, he used the clever 'kryptonite' strategy. Brilliantly insightful plan that was. It is a total insult to Superman's character to suggest Batman should beat him. The Superman I used to read was brilliant. An intellect easily on par with Batman. Idealistic, yes...but by no means gullible. An intelligently written Superman would usually be prepared for someone to use his one weakness against him. Bah.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Starlord
Blind internal compromise is part of human nature. When faced with the probable defeat of your hero, you manifest a situation in which that hero might win. Cap wins fights...better than Batman in my opinion. Batman is great in a fight. What makes him different and unique from Cap is that he solves crimes, deduces mysteries, and is a master manipulator.

Cap becomes a victim of the simple idealist syndrome. For some reason because of his nature, he is not seen as clever. You also, unfortunately, see signs of this in DC's portrayal of Superman. Batman beat Superman? Eh. Wow, he used the clever 'kryptonite' strategy. Brilliantly insightful plan that was. It is a total insult to Superman's character to suggest Batman should beat him. The Superman I used to read was brilliant. An intellect easily on par with Batman. Idealistic, yes...but by no means gullible. An intelligently written Superman would usually be prepared for someone to use his one weakness against him. Bah. Supes certainly dealt with Luthor's and even Dr. Doom's use of kryptonite.:)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them
> seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to
> plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in
> Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply.

Faulty logic, and reductio ad absurdum besides. All the planning in the world cannot overcome the basic physical limitations that: a) it still takes a finite amount of time to plan and b) Batman can only be in one place at one time. Hence, the continued presence of crime in Gotham no matter *how* good he is.

OTOH, vs. a single foe (such as Cap), that limitation isn't really coming into play...



You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Impressive the use of :rolleyes:

I have heard statements to the effect that Batman given some time to plan can beat Superman, Captain America, and anyone else. I'm not exaggerating one bit. Why can't Batman neutralize his rogues' gallery as easily as he can outwit Supes? Besides, with Batman's great intellect he doesn't need to be present to effect events right?

I'm not downing Batman. What I am saying is that he has definite limits to his planning capabilities that are well within the realm that Captain America can adapt to as represented in his comic. They are very even in capability with Cap having the advantage of artificial enhancements. I give it to Cap in a stand-up fight 1 more time than I give it to Bats and I call it pretty even if they know each other is coming.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Chuckg
You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet.

Isn't that pretty much Superman's opinion of the Marvel universe? :)

-AA

[Stone]

This is not an attack on the Batman camp, just an observation..

Agent X makes a great point. If Batman is such a genius and incredible fighter, why are the Joker and the other non-superpowered villians still around in Batman's city? How did Joker manage to kill Robin? Is he smarter than Batman?

Granted, there are just as many villians for each hero in publication that seem to always escape and resurface to annoy the heroes. It just seems that the overwhelming majority have at least one power that make them a dangerous threat. Batman's stable of regular foes (Joker, Peguin, Riddler...) are all very intelligent, but other than some questionable sanity I do not not recall any powers. Then again, I quit reading Batman about 15 years ago.

[Chuckg]

The 'Batman has trouble with pro boxers' era isn't just Pre Zero-Hour, it's Pre-Crisis.

Remember, Marvel might not have full continuity reboots, but the DCU *does*.

[Chuckg]

> Full continuity reboot = retcon.

Yes, but hardly "this week's". If we use Post-Crisis continuity only, that's still almost *25 years* worth of comics. Post Zero-Hour only, that's still around 10 years.

[snip]

[Champsguy]

All kneel, for the Munchkin King hath come forth to lay down the law.

;)

Here's my take on Bats and Cap.

Cap has the physical edge. I don't think there's any doubt there. While Bats has beaten down some pretty awesome martial artists, he was still beaten by Prometheus, DC's version of the Taskmaster. Cap, meanwhile, has won fistfights with people like Mr Hyde. I can't remember Batman going hand-to-hand with bricks, but I've seen Cap do it.

As far as "fighting dirty", I hereby name anybody who references this a complete 'tard. What does "fighting dirty" mean in a fight? Just what, pray tell, will Batman do that's "not fair"? What specifically is he supposed to do to Captain America?

I've seen Batman re-wire Prometheus' helmet. Was that dirty? Maybe. I've seen him use kryptonite and other kinds of crap that people were vulnerable to. But what is Cap's weakness? He doesn't get his powers from a magic ring, and barring bad writing, they never go away. Simply, there's no way for Bats to cheat Cap, without resorting to Lex Luthor style attacks ("Cap won't like it when I have protestors appear on the doorstep of Avengers' Mansion. Bwah-hah-hah!").

People also forget one thing: the super-soldier serum enhanced Cap's brain as well. This isn't talked about as much, but he's one smart cookie.

Now, Cap isn't as good a scientist as Batman is. Batman is no Reed Richards, but he's a good real-world scientist. He's a great detective, and he speaks more languages than I want to know. THIS is Bat's advantage over Cap. Steve Rogers is a nice guy, but he's an all-american boy. Batman is James Bond. He can blend in with Tanzanian royalty, because he knows which fork goes where. Batman has more disguise skills, and security skills, and infiltration skills than Cap does.

If your daughter is kidnapped, Batman is the guy who can get her back unharmed (I say that, but most of the times I remember people being kidnapped with Bats on the case, they ended up dead). He's the detective. Cap is the combat leader. Batman is the infiltration guy. When the big guns start blasting, it's time for Bats to find a corner to lurk in, and it's time for Cap to find a bad guy to punch.


In a fight, Cap wins 60% of the time (fair or not). This doesn't mean that Cap is a better character--it just means he wins in a fight. I think both these guys lose to Wonder Man, and he's a goober.

[Chuckg]

Batman was beaten by Prometheus... the first time. When Batman admits that he was stupidly overconfident and let his guard down.

The second time, in 'World War III', Batman was successfully making Prometheus eat his billy club even /before/ the cheat with the helmet came into play, on pure skill alone. Batman only needed to activate the helmet cheat because Prometheus had brought his wrist-gun into play at a critical moment... the pure HTH brawl was going all Batman's way.

[Vigil]

Yeah,

He may be portrayed as goober, but Wondy's hands down the world's most powerful goober (when written right).

As Count Nefaria (a way more stylish version of Superman) said in the timeless Avengers #165 "...and you may be the mightiest mortal who ever lived..."

Of course then he punches Wondy through the mansion, wiping out Captain America with his invulnerable bod as he passes while Nefaria says, "...except, of course, for me."

But the first part is really cool and it shows that Wondy rules. Oh yeah, and Cap gives Wondy his shield to continue the fight.

So there. Definitve proof that Batman and Cap are both Wondeman-wannabes.

Vigil :D

[Jeff T.]

...now what about Batman v. Wolverine?

[Chuckg]

Pattern Ghost -- who the hell said that Batman was the best hand-to-hand combatant in the DCU? "The Best in the DCU" is a title that has a helluva lot of crowding at the top.

Then again, the only two contenders for that title who are clearly ahead of Batman (Cassandra Cain and Lady Shiva) both have such obnoxious chi mastery and other such aberrant skills that they are *WELL* up into the metahuman range, despite having absolutely no metagenes.

(Cassandra can move in literal Matrix bullet time for brief periods, finish punching four people unconscious before the first one she hit has time enough to finish the blink she caught him halfway through, shatter brick walls *by accident* while fighting, and see an enemy's movements before it happens. Shiva hasn't yet demonstrated bullet time (because she doesn't have any fight scenes vs. people with guns), but she matches Cassandra neck-and-neck in everything else.)

It is a logical fallacy to assume that you *must* be the best in the DCU to compare with the best in the MU.

And BTW, nobody here has disputed the fact that Cap has a superior physique to Batman... only marginally superior in some areas (reaction time, agility), somewhat superior in others (strength), downright obnoxiously superior in one (endurance). What we are saying is that between his skills and his unorthodoxness, Batman can make up for loss of physicality with better and smarter fighting.

Another logical fallacy is to make the assumption that because we're saying that Cap isn't as clever, as adept at controlling the battlefield, or etc. as Captain America, we are therefore somehow claiming that Cap is stupid.

Cap is not stupid. Cap is quite briliant, agreed. It's just that Batman is significantly *above* "quite" brilliant... he's all the way up there at "breathtaking genius", with some spikes on the chart that go all the way up to "Holy Shit".

[JmOz]

Green Arrow is also a better HtH than Batman (again in the Lady Shiva Range)

[JmOz]

To clarify Conner is a better HtH, not Oliver

[Chuckg]

Actually, while the dialogue said that, the actual results didn't support it...

Batman has fought Shiva three times, and while he's never won any points without outside assistance, he's always managed to keep her from hurting *him* too badly.

Connor went up against Shiva and almost died. He did inflict more damage on her than Batman ever has (Shiva's broken arm)... but Shiva repaid that by kicking in his ribs and putting him down and helpless, and she would've shoved that sword right through his head if Robin hadn't called in that debt of honor she owed him to save Connor's life.

So despite the narrative hyperbole, I do not consider Connor Hawke as superior to Batman... superior to Nightwing, yes, clearly, but Batman's made a better showing than he did, repeatedly.

Cassandra Cain has fought Shiva (edit) twice that I can recall... she got bitch-slapped all through the first one and then sucker-punched Shiva after the fight was over (punched her with her /broken/ arm, no less!), and won the second one cleanly by knockout... but it was still a very close thing.

[BlackSword]

I think when first introduced, Cassandra was heads and shoulders above everyone else in the MAs areana. Part of the reason for this was she couldn't communicate and was only able to read people by body language, and very subtle body language at that. It was in this time that Batman tested her and said hit me. Nothing happened and then Bats coughed up some blood, and smiled. She was fast. One of her story lines in the Batgirl comic a metahuman touched her mind and gave her the ability to commincate normally, this effected her fighting ability and depowered her somewhat.

I missed some of the comics in the Lady Shiva storyline, but I think her first loss to Shiva was partially psychological.

In the current Batman/Superman series pretty much every supervillain comes after Superman to collect a bounty (issue 3?). Bats is helping him and comes up against Lady Shiva. Batman notes in a little blue box that Lady Shiva and him have had a bit of a competition over who was the better fighter. Batman's next comment is something along the line of, "I remember what she did to Catwoman" <Lady Shiva's arm goes Snap> "I try not to enjoy this."

Part of who is the best MA in the DC universe is storyline, but I think the current continuity supports the top four being (in no particular order) Batman, Lady Shiva, Conner, Cassandra Cain. I think they are pretty much at the same level (well above everyone else). In game terms their fights would come down to luck of the dice.

Also, in the recent Straight Shooter series Conner was getting beat up pretty good by the bad guy. I was expecting Conner to hold up much better considering he is supposed to be one of the best martial artists in the DCU.

[austenandrews]

I have no idea who all these DC martial artists are that you're talking about, but I always thought the Joker was smarter than Batman. Is there some question about that? I never saw Batman as a super-genius. Like someone said, he's James Bond. The Joker is Blofeld, on a whole 'nother level. Good thing he's a total loon.

And whoever said that Batman's utility belt wouldn't help him against Cap must be talking about a different Batman than the one I know. Fistfight Cap until his oxygen metabolism is way up, slap a net over him (it's been done lots of times, don't get cocky ;)) and then toss out a few pellets of knockout gas. Lure Cap onto precarious footing and use swinglines to even the odds. Come on, this is Batman, not Moon Knight. Give him some credit.

Of course I tend to agree, if Cap makes Bats eat shield more than once or twice, it's nitey-nite for Brucie.

-AA

[Chuckg]

Re: Cassandra and her move-reading ability... after vigorous training with Lady Shiva, Cassandra got it back. She can speak now *and* she has the full uber-thing she had before. Cassandra's having lost that ability temporarily (an ability which Shiva shares, BTW) is why she lost the first fight vs. Shiva... the second time, she was fighting unimpaired.

Re: Lady Shiva and that recent showing vs. Talia... well, the comics discussion forum I hang out on has a term for such events -- 'Spider-Man vs. Firelord'. (i.e. -- a one-off fluke occurrence where a character came in vastly above or below their usual performance level, in a manner that just isn't even remotely plausible.)

[Vigil]

Hey Guys,

Since we're on the topic of the best MA in the DCU, you seem to have forgotten the most obvious choice...non other than the unmatchable Deathstroke. He's kicked the crap out of just about everyone he's faced, including handing Bats his head a couple of times and this is at his current reduced ability levels. The way I see him, Deathstroke has it all, siperhuman STR and SPD, a tactical ability that may rival Cappy's, and a vast knowledge of all forms of fighting. Remember how he walked all over the Titans repeatedly and the damage he did in Panic in the Sky? I think he's even fought Lady Shiva on a couple of occassions. I don't recall how those ended but I think it was a draw.

And then there's guys like Bronze Tiger, Kanto, Lashina to name a few.

Now that I think of it, it strikes me just who the best MA in the DCU is without a doubt, unarguably. It would be the Levitz Karate Kid of Legion fame. This guy could punch out Shiva, Cain, Deathstroke and Bats before they even moved. I think he's undeniably the best there is. Heck, he's even taken down Timber Wolf, Superboy and Mon-El and duked it out with Validus (the last one didn't go so well, though)...no other martial artist I know has even come close.

In the Marvel Universe another couple of contenders: Iron Fist could certainly give Bats a run for his money as could the Black Panther. We've seen Bats and Daredevil fight indecisively. Then there's Shang Chi, who is in a class beyond Bats and probably more in the Detahstroke/Shiva league.

Someone was talking about what would happen between Bats and Wolverine. It seems there may be a bit of alack of understanding going on. Bats is good, as good as a human can be. Wolverine and Captain America are way beyond what a human could touch. And planning, well you can plan for the best way to get run over by a speeding Mack truck but you're still going to get run over by a speeding Mack truck and it's going to hurt you a lot more than the truck. So much for planning. What I'm saying is that there are limits to what Bats can do against these guys. he can hit Wolvie all he wants and jam gas pellets dwn his throat and Wolvie will still tear him a new everything. Remeber Wolvie deals with guys like Sabretooth and Omega Red regularly not guys like Joker and Riddler who are, more or less, physically ineffectual.

That's the difference in the very structure of the 2 universes. DC's heroes are generally problem solvers who one punch the bad guys once they've escaped the death trap. take lots of thinking and problem solving ability and minimal physical difficulty. Marvel's heroes are capable underdogs who battle uphill and overcome with superior fortititude and resolve. And no one displays that more the Captain America. Remeber, this is the guy who lead the combat teams the dealt with Thanos, the Beyonder, Korvac, Ultron, Kang and the list goes on an on. Cap's used to playing in and taking control in the biggest leagues. Throwing a net over him isn't going to catch him by surprise or even really slow him down ("Gee a net, never seen that before! What can I do?"...with his reflexes he may well just scoop it up and throw it back before Bats knows what's happening). Captain America's faced all sorts of foes from the mundane to the trans-cosmic. I don't think there' really much of anything that's going to catch him by surprise and I don't think Bats (all credit where it's due) is going to undermine or shake Cap's confidence. If the Beyonder and Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet or Korvac can't do it then Bats isn't going to (please don't try and tell me he's more intimidating than them.)

What I'm trying to say is that Cap and Bats are proabbaly equaly good in their own spheres. It's just that there's spheres aren't equal.

Vigil

:cool:

[Chuckg]

While I agree with you re: their relative skill levels, I was leaving Deathstroke and Val Armorr out of my calculations of "best" because in Deathstroke's case it's not skill, it's pure metahuman stats -- and in Val's case, well, I guess I was thinking only of 20th-century martial artists. I'm with you on the fact that if he was allowed into the contest, he'd destroy everybody else there on pure skill alone and never break a sweat.

I disagree with you, however, about how Cap's physical stats are 'far beyond' human capacity. The whole point about Cap is that he's peak human, not metahuman. Your scenario about him picking up a net and throwing it back upon Batman before Batman can see it move... sorry, just don't see it. *Deathstroke* isn't *that* much faster relative to the Bat (he is faster, but not that much faster), and he *IS* in the definitely superhuman range.

The thing about Batman is that he's about as physically peak human as it can get without actually invoking Super-Soldier Serum, but *with* invoking a buttload of mind-over-body disciplines in addition to what is literally a lifetime of fanatic training.

[Jeff T.]

Eh, Spidey beats 'em all. :)

[Brandi]

We're all a bunch of Comic Book Guys here, even the girls.

Anyway, I think when it comes to Batman having to fight anybody truly superhuman, he has to be able to set up the playing field to give him an edge or he's in trouble. Consider the big final fight of The Dark Knight Returns.

[And note that if Oliver had screwed up Bats might well have been killed even before the heart attack kicked in, though Supes may have only had orders to completely cripple him.]

[Vigil]

Hey Chuckg and Starlord and Brandi,

You all have valid points.

Yes, Spidey could probably beat Batman without too much effort and may even beat Cap but I'm kinda dubious on this (I hadn't realized how much of a "mark" I am for Cap until I got into this. before I hadn't even thought that I liked the guy all that much. I guess there are no atheists in foxholes and I'm in the Marvel one.)

Brandi, as to your Dark Knight point, I do agree that Miller's was the definitive portrayl of Batman and is the one that all others have been based on since. But, in response, there was a previous post that pointed out that most, if not all, of DC's big guns (Martian Manhunter, Supes, Mon El, have a shockingly pronounced vulnerability that takes them from super- to subhuman in a heartbeat. Marvel generally doesn't have equivalents...lower power levels but not with commensurate vulnerabilities.) So, while Batman has been shown to be able to defeat Superman if he has a hunk of kryptonite handy, I don't think there's such a thing as Bat-Hulk Repellant in the utility belt, so does that make Hulk superior to Superman?

I don't think so but the point is that Marvel's heroes don't have the sorts of cataclysmic vulnerabilities that Batman takes into consideration in his startegies. You can't beat the Hulk by lighting a match...unless it's to immolate yourself and hope to win a moral victory and you can't plan your way around that sort of raw power.

And Chuckg, this is what I was driving at in my previous point. There are limits to Batman's planning abilities not to mention the fact that he still has to be physically capable of executing his plans. It's one thing to figure out how to beat someone, it's quite another to actually pull it off. It's the "x factor' that obsessed the Mad Thinker in action. Bats may "love it when a plan comes together" but there's absolutely no assurance that it will. And for improvising and thinking ofn his feet, well Captain America and redited and recorded the talking book on that. There's just no comparison of there tactical abilities there.

Here's a few more match ups that I'd like all of your opinions on, (the current) Supes vs Gladiator or Supreme or Hyperion or Ultraman (from the Crime Syndicate) or the post Crisis Superman vs the Golden Age Superman (at his Crisis peak). Who would win?

Thanks for your ideas.

[Vigil]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, that as tacticians there are a few guys who also easily transcend Batman's level. Captain America (as I mentioned he wrote and then reedited and then spoke on the talking book and did all the signings and media appearances to put it in perspective.) I still maintain that the physical gap between he and Batman is more than peak human (Batman) vs slightly greater than peak human (Cappy). I think the spread is much more pronounced. If you were to put them in the danger room or on an obstacle course (like in American Gladiators) Batman would be crossing the balance beam about when Captain America broke the tape at the end. Other tacticians who dwarf Bats include Thanos and Warlock and Vril Dox and Brainiac 5 all spring to mind. And of course, my own Vigil from my team Worldwatch.

Vigil

:D

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Vigil
Here's a few more match ups that I'd like all of your opinions on, (the current) Supes vs Gladiator or Supreme or Hyperion or Ultraman (from the Crime Syndicate) or the post Crisis Superman vs the Golden Age Superman (at his Crisis peak). Who would win?

Thanks for your ideas.

I'd have to go with Supes on those first match-ups, particularly since they've decided Supes can squeak by Thor (not that I agree with that)...and Thor has trashed Gladiator and Hyperion one-one-one in the comics.

Basically, if a true Marvel fan wanted to be sure to beat Superman, I'd just bring in...

the Silver Surfer. :cool:

[Chuckg]

Pattern -- re: 'logic'... you are mistaken in the belief that logic doesn't apply to comic books. Logic applies to everything.

*Real-world physics* doesn't apply to comic books, just as it fails to apply to much science fiction, virtually all fantasy, and most other genres. And yet, fiction of all varieties is still able to deliver *internally* consistent stories and arguments, even if those arguments are not *externally* consistent with mundane physical laws. This is a form of logic... one of the most basic forms, called 'consistency'.

re: 'rat's ass' -- [snip]


Vigil -- again, I just can't grasp why you are so determined to have Cap be *that far* above peak human.

I mean... Cap easily dodges volleys of machine-gun fire at point-blank range. So does Batman.

Cap easily throws aerodynamic projectiles on obnoxious ricochet and boomerang shots and never, ever misses. So does Batman.

Cap effortlessly does gymnastics under harrying circumstances. Batman has been routinely throwing swinglines around Gotham City for years without ever once becoming street pizza... and remember, at the heights he works at the first time Batman ever blows a Bat-line grapple is the *last* time he'll blow one, barring a miracle.

Cap can do curls with weights than normal bodybuilders would be hard-pressed to use for their bench press. Batman can pick up and move vending machines that would normally take two guys and a dolly to drag.

The one *big* superiority I will grant Cap physically is endurance -- Batman still has a metabolism that generates fatigue poisons, Cap explicitly does not.

But just because Batman can do an Iron Man triathlon and "only" have enough wind left at the end of it to beat down fifteen ninjas, that's still extremely damn impressive, and the fact that Cap could do that same triathlon and barely have broken a sweat at all won't change that.

IMO, *if* Captain America beats Batman in a straight-up hand-to-hand fight... and that's by no means a guarantee... then Cap will do so by dragging the fight out for a *very* long time, and gradually wearing Batman down until he's finally done enough wearing that he can make the KO punch actually land home.

But there will be no walkovers, no 'casually sweep the net aside and surprise Batman with the pounce', and nothing else of the tone of 'I'm Captain America, you're only human.'

Cap is peak human, not Agent Smith.



Edit -- [snip]

[Blue]

Do we need a poll for this?

Heck, let's make on anyway. One poll coming up!

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Starlord
I'd have to go with Supes on those first match-ups, particularly since they've decided Supes can squeak by Thor (not that I agree with that)...and Thor has trashed Gladiator and Hyperion one-one-one in the comics.

Basically, if a true Marvel fan wanted to be sure to beat Superman, I'd just bring in...

the Silver Surfer. :cool:

Except that Thor has already beaten the Silver Surfer in the past. :rolleyes:

I'm tellin' ya, these who-would-beat-who debates are a Mobius strip of comics trivia citations. You should just try something less complicated, like untying the Gordian Knot. ;)

[Vigil]

The knot's not a problem. That's what swords are for.

[austenandrews]

For me it doesn't come down to logic or game statistics or what-have-you. For me the real question is, can you write a comic book in which X beats Y in a genuine fight, without resorting to cheap tactics? As I see it, absolutely you can write a convincing story having Bats defeat Cap, through clever use of stealth and whatnot. That's no stretch at all. Put'em in a cage match and it's a stretch, no question. Let Batman control the battlefield, you've got a story.

End of discussion for me. *shrug*

-AA

[Chuckg]

Agent X -- I missed this post of yours before...

[snip]
> Why can't Batman neutralize his rogues' gallery as easily as
> he can outwit Supes?

That's the thing. He *can* neutralize 99.9+% of his rogues' gallery as easily as etc... with extremely rare exceptions such as Ra's Al Ghul, "Batman vs. X" conflicts end with X in jail or in Arkham.

At which point, the Editor Gawds intervene and allow X a chance for recidivism, instead of simply burying him in the Slab for fifty years to life. But then again, every other superhero (except for the Frank Castle-type lethal-force using vigilantes) suffers this problem as well... no matter how many times they put the villains away, no matter how cleverly they do so, the villains will keep coming back.

That includes Captain America, BTW. As well as Reed Richards, Thor, etc, etc.

I say again -- you cannot use Batman's "failure" to eliminate his Rogue's Gallery permanently from play as proof that Batman is somehow incapable...

... because nigh-on every superhero ever published, no matter how powerful, no matter how skilled, no matter how brilliant, and no matter how devious, has the exact same problem -- the villains will, eventually, get out of jail and get back in the plot.

Edit -- the only real solution to the above problem has been the Frank Castle/Authority solution... kill the villains. At which point, all they've done is trade in the recidivism problem for another problem... i.e., for every villain they mow down, two more spring up.

[Lord Liaden]

Please, guys, this one isn't winnable, and it's going in a direction that's not worthy of you. Remember your true classiness, and just walk away. :)

[Hermit]

I don't know who used the "F" word first in this thread, nor do I really, at this point care.

But I would like to respectfully ask that we tone down the profanity and snideness 'just' a bit, please?

Thank you.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
That would be Chuck. Since I can't shove my fist down his throat, I opt to cuss him out a bit. Sorry if that offends, but you can just hit the ignore button in my profile.

Personally I'd hate to do that, PG. You've made a positive contribution to these boards in the past, and I don't want to lose that just because you let your temper get the better of you once.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Thanks for the vote of confidence, LL.

OK, tell ya what. I'm going to go get rid of all of my prior posts in this thread and ignore chuck. Seems to be the best I can manage. I can at least make that effort for you, Hermit, and others on the board who deserve a show of respect. I apologize to all of you.

Thank you.

[Chuckg]

Very well. As soon as I see Pattern Ghost's posts go down, I'll delete all of my sarcastic responses and continuations of the flame war.

Edit -- and now they're all down, and so should all of mine be. If I missed one, somebody please let me know where.

[Blue]

Checking my ignore list there are two names I don't even recognize, so I deleted them.... and then welcomed two new members.

[Hermit]

Thanks again, to you both this time.

I'm going to the Batman/Cap thread for this thing now, and peeking on here from time to time hoping for updates on the overall series :)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Except that Thor has already beaten the Silver Surfer in the past. :rolleyes:

I'm tellin' ya, these who-would-beat-who debates are a Mobius strip of comics trivia citations. You should just try something less complicated, like untying the Gordian Knot. ;)


But, but, but....THEY'RE SO MUCH FUN TO DEBATE!!! :(

*You'd think a Thor fanboy like myself would've known he beat Silver Surfer. How embarassing. :o

[Chuckg]

The Thor vs. Silver Surfer victories are what some friends of mine jokingly call "Pre-Crisis Thor"... (as in Pre-Crisis Superman vs. Post-Crisis Supes).

Thor was a lot more buff during the early Simonson era than he's been in later eras, just as the Silver Surfer's been a lot more buff in many later appearances in his own title than he was in many of his earlier FF appearances and other such contemporaries.

Then again, both Thor and the Surfer have had such wide variation up and down in their power curves over their respective lifetimes that they genuinely are an 'Any Given Sunday' situation, IMO. It depends on which point in their lifeline you pick the Surfer and Thor from.

(It also depends on whether or not the Surfer will display the tactical ability of a hard-boiled egg or not... Norrin is *really* awful about using the full potential of his powers sometimes, whereas Thor is a very experienced warrior.)

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Edit -- the only real solution to the above problem has been the Frank Castle/Authority solution... kill the villains. ::snip:: That isn't the only option, there is always th option to modify their behaviour ie B-Mod them with one of Tom Thumb's machines.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Starlord
the Silver Surfer. :cool: I'd go with Adam Warlock, I doubt both of them can survive a Karmic Blast. :)

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Bazza
I'd go with Adam Warlock, I doubt both of them can survive a Karmic Blast. :)

If you are talking about Thor being attacked by Warlock, forget it. Thor can shrug off a Karmic Blast like it was a 9d EB. I believe it was in the Blood And Thunder storyline.
Warlock also mentioned he hated fighting Thor 'cause he had stomped his butt back when Adam was Him (not to be confused with Her or even It, the Living Colossus)
Apparently, Warlock found Asgardians to be more fortified than most against a karmic assault. This was the period of time where Thor was a nutcase and talking to his imaginary girlfriend while bitching about how Daddy never loved him. You'd think he'd have figured out Odin hated him years ago.
Of course, Thor believes talking eyeballs are a good source of information, too. :)

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Bazza
That isn't the only option, there is always th option to modify their behaviour ie B-Mod them with one of Tom Thumb's machines.

True... but again, that has *its* own unique set of problems... as the 'Squadron Supreme' series brilliantly showed.

[Champsguy]

My take on the Silver Surfer/Thor battles has always been that the Surfer just didn't have the right personality to fight Thor. The Surfer just doesn't have the killer instinct to fight the Odinson. His fighting tactic is usually to fly around and shoot things with a big energy blast. He's a "hands-off" sort of fighter. Occasionally, he'll get all full of righteous indignation and blast the holy snot out of Morg. But the Surfer just doesn't have that bloodlust to get in close and get his hands dirty.

Thor's all about getting his hands dirty. His first impulse is to whack you with his hammer. He's gonna keep doing that. Supes handles that better than Surfer does.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Superskrull
If you are talking about Thor being attacked by Warlock, forget it. Talking about Bat and Caps.



Thor can shrug off a Karmic Blast like it was a 9d EB. I believe it was in the Blood And Thunder storyline.
Warlock also mentioned he hated fighting Thor 'cause he had stomped his butt back when Adam was Him (not to be confused with Her or even It, the Living Colossus)

Apparently, Warlock found Asgardians to be more fortified than most against a karmic assault. I'd have to reread The Blood & Thunder storyline to comment on the Karmic blast. I'd haphazard a guess and say the reason Asgardians are less susceptible to karmic blasts is because on their inherent warrior-born battle-rage trait.


You'd think he'd have figured out Odin hated him years ago. I don't think that is the case. I think it was because Odin did love him both as a father and heir to the throne of Asgard that Odin gave him the mortal identity of Dr Donald Blake. If indeed Thor was headstrong as his brief childhood glimses suggest, then I'm with Odin that it was a necessary action. Of course one can't predict the outcome of an experiment like that :)


Of course, Thor believes talking eyeballs are a good source of information, too. :) Let's not go there ;) But I think Walt pretty much cleared that up with his version of Odin's origin. Bad writers can do evil things to good characters (and giving the benefit of the doubt to the writer as I've not yet read that storyline).

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Chuckg
True... but again, that has *its* own unique set of problems... as the 'Squadron Supreme' series brilliantly showed. I agree. and I also think that the Squadron Supreme was brilliant.

Can you (or anyone else) remember the Squadron Supreme fought the Avengers with Captain America in the team?

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Bazza
I agree. and I also think that the Squadron Supreme was brilliant.

Can you (or anyone else) remember the Squadron Supreme fought the Avengers with Captain America in the team?

Sure. The last time was the start of the Heroes Return era Avengers. Cap lead the team as they slapped the Squadders around and made fun of them for being mind controlled again. Then they teamed up, fought Morgan Champion and found a way to send the Squadron back home in time for their Prestige format One-shot.

The Squadron was best when they were on their own Earth being written by the late lamented Mark Gruenwald.

[Southern Cross]

One thing that always bothered me about the b-mod devices was that they were presented as being invincible-that nobody could resist their effects.What would the Squadron have done if they encountered someone who was immune to their brainwashing procedure?

[Chuckg]

Probably put the immune party into a Hibernaculum and kept him on ice while Tom Thumb researched how to customize the B-Mod to get around the guy's defenses.

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Probably put the immune party into a Hibernaculum and kept him on ice while Tom Thumb researched how to customize the B-Mod to get around the guy's defenses.

Yeah. Sounds about right.

[Crimson Arrow]

Hang on. Batman vs Cap IN THE COMIC. The fight that never happened. Sorry I have come to this late, but I only got issue 2 at the weekend.

I actually read Batman's comment differently from most of you, so I have been thinking about interpreting it in other ways.

1. Batman is really saying, "You'd hand me my cowl." Batman stops the fight because he know he is going to lose. Quite a possible interpretation. However, would Bats admit this? Doesn't seem likely. NOTE. I am not saying Batman wouldn't lose to Captain America, just that Batman wouldn't admit it so readily. Also, Batman would have no idea about Cap never getting fatigued, which a lot of people (quite possible correctly) think could be the deciding factor in a fight.

2. Batman thinks he has a good chance of losing because he realises CA is better than him. Bats might think he could take Cap with a trick, but isn't confident at all. This is more likely. He might admit it doubt, in the hopes of making CA over-confident (possibly doomed to failure but Batman wouldn't know that), to increase the chances of taking Cap with a feint or gadget later.

3. Batman thinks he is at a disdvantage. More likely to lose than not, but possible he could take Cap. Pretty much the same motivation as 2 above. His statement could be taken entirely at face value.

4. Batman thinks they are pretty evenly matched. It could go either way. He doesn't want to waste time fighting Cap, as he might lose. Better to find out what's going on and avoid a possible loss. He says he might lose because he figures a man in a union suit might be a straight-up fellow and that this has a better chance of ending the fight before it starts than saying, "I could probably beat you."

5. He thinks he could take CA more times than not. NOTE: This doesn't mean he is right. He wants to avoid a confrontation because it will waste time or because he might lose/have underestimated his foe. If you play Russian Roulette, you only die one time in six, but would YOU play it? Same motivation for what he says as 4 above.

6. He thinks he could cream Cap, but again wants to avoid wasting time or get on with solving the mystery. Possible, but seems unlikely from the background of the story and I really think it would be a close fight.

Of course, you can mix and match these. Batman might just want to avoid a fight at any cost and get on with dealing with the real problem, no matter how he feels a fight with Cap will go. I've probably missed other possible interpretations as well.

I don't think you can even assume Batman really thinks he might lose to Cap BASED ON WHAT HE SAYS.

As such, I am not going to touch the "which one would win in a fight" argument with a bargepole.