Champions' Iconic Characters (Blasphemy next 500 words)

[MisterVimes]

Ok... I've been trying to think of a way to say this without hurting anyone's feelings. I have been voting for the Champions in the Champions vs. SAS battle... but I didn't want to. I voted for the Champions because I am a team player... but I really don't like our Iconic Characters very much.

I like Defender... and I like Kenetik (even though he's not officially one of the team)... and that's it. I don't like Ironclad (I miss Obsidian), I don't like the rest of them.

Honestly... I didn't like most of the last team. Then in CU we'd be introduced to all these other interesting characters.

You see, I was hoping for a team of Champions that looked like this:
1) Defender (l)
2) Crusader
3) Obsidian
4) Solitaire
5) Kenetik
6) *insert energy projector here*

But alas, I got the new team.
It's not that the new team is BAD... they just don't excite me... they don't thrill me and I don't have the feeling of familiarity of the old team (even if I didn't like 3 of them either).

I know this is a minor issue... heck, it's not even an issue. It's just me expressing an opinion.

I love HERO and I worship Champions... but couldn't we have had The Protectors instead?

*dons flame retardant suit*

[Monolith]

Personally, I do not exclusively vote for one side or the other. My vote is based on whichever story I like better. So sometimes I am a Hero-maniac and other times I am a GOO-turncoat. :)

As far as the Champions themselves, I am not sure which team I like better. Overall it might end up being the 5E team over the 4E team.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
Personally, I do not exclusively vote for one side or the other. My vote is based on whichever story I like better. So sometimes I am a Hero-maniac and other times I am a GOO-turncoat. :)

I feel so much better now... I wanted to vote for Mother Raven:o

[Monolith]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I feel so much better now... I wanted to vote for Mother Raven:o
I did vote for Mother Raven... but don't tell anyone. :)

[MisterVimes]

Well keep it between you and me (and 666 other registered users)

[nblade]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Well keep it between you and me (and 666 other registered users)

I'm not sure that's possible, CNN just ran it as a story ;)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by nblade
I'm not sure that's possible, CNN just ran it as a story ;)

I hate when that happens

[Kevin Scrivner]

6) *insert energy projector here*

Of course it's gotta be Sunburst, that media-loving irradiated scientist from 3rd edition. ;)

I felt unable to choose between Witchcraft and Mother Raven since I have an aversion to occultish "heroes" in general and don't permit them in my games. Mother Raven had the cooler costume, however. Power-wise they seemed evenly matched. On the frog thing, hey, if a witch can't turn someone into a ubiquitous amphibian life form what's the point? It's part of the schtick.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
6) *insert energy projector here*

Of course it's gotta be Sunburst, that media-loving irradiated scientist from 3rd edition. ;)

Starburst? Isn't Sunburst the badguy with the god-complex?

[Lord Liaden]

I've also been been voting either HERO or GOO depending on how I felt about each character and battle. I haven't felt a particular need to be loyal to the Champions, partly because the two companies haven't put pressure on us to choose sides.

I'm also a little underwhelmed by the current Champions, but I felt much the same about the previous incarnations from the BBB. I think that's partly because both incarnations were created as examples, to fill certain team roles and construction guidelines. Scott Heine's Protectors (which like for so many others, are my favorite heroes from published Champions books), were originally PCs or based on PCs. They had the depth that comes from individual attention being lavished on them, and from being played for some time in a good campaign.

I have to say, though, that I was much fonder of the experienced version of the Champions that appeared in the first edition of Champions Universe - all of them well over 400 pts. thanks to Experience. All of them had had their character sheets expanded in appropriate and interesting ways, and had their personalities and histories fleshed out to reflect their experiences, as if they had actually been played. That process went even farther for Seeker in Watchers of the Dragon and Solitaire in Ultimate Mentalist. I even came to like Seeker.:p

Perhaps when more experienced versions of the new Champs appear in a future rewrite, they'll seem meatier too.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Perhaps when more experienced versions of the new Champs appear in a future rewrite, they'll seem meatier too.

Um... can't we start a petition to get a new hat for Blue Falcon and better shoes for Tinker-Brick?

[Acroyear]

You're thinking of Sunburst. Starburst was the guy with the Flash linked to the EB and teamed up with Crusader to stop Ogre from robbing a bank in early edition combat examples. And, iirc, is listed in the back of the BBB, also.

I don't like the Champions teams, either (all three of them, counting CNM). As examples of vanilla archetypes, they are ok, I guess. But they are pretty blah otherwise.

I never liked Solitaire, for example. I don't think "Magic" qualifies as tight special effect for something like an EC. I mean, let's face it, in gamer geekdom (and much to my annoyance) "magic can do anything." How or why magic should or could be the ultimate force in the universe... well, because it's magic.

Would you allow "EC: Alien" or "EC: Superpowered Mutant"? I sure wouldn't. Way too vague.

[tesuji]

But its not magic...

it "helpful witcheries"...

:-)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Would you allow "EC: Alien" or "EC: Superpowered Mutant"? I sure wouldn't. Way too vague.
Same old arguments over and over.

Would I allow Alien Physiology or Mutant Physiology as and EC? It depends on if it makes sense that if you drain one slot of the EC all slots get drained. Does that come up often? No, but it does come up.

The same can be said for a Magic EC. If there is something about the way the spells in the EC are tied together that makes each of them weaker if one is weakened then it makes sense that it be part of an EC.

What is more abusive. 100 pt Magic Pool (costing 150 points and allow you to do anything with a Magic Roll and a Full Phase) or a 60 point Magic Elemental (allowing you to have the base EC and 4 other 60 AP slots)? In the long-run the VPP is far more abusive.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
What is more abusive. 100 pt Magic Pool (costing 150 points and allow you to do anything with a Magic Roll and a Full Phase) or a 60 point Magic Elemental (allowing you to have the base EC and 4 other 60 AP slots)? In the long-run the VPP is far more abusive.

I'm with you on that. But I see the argument against EC (Magic) as well. If everyone in my campaign were mages, I don't think I'd allow it. But if you have a Light Elemental and an Ice Elemental in the game... why NOT a Magic Elemental?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I'm with you on that. But I see the argument against EC (Magic) as well. If everyone in my campaign were mages, I don't think I'd allow it. But if you have a Light Elemental and an Ice Elemental in the game... why NOT a Magic Elemental?
That's the whole thing. If I want a Light Elemental I can buy: Energy Blast, Flash, Force Field, Darkness, and Flight for a discount. But if I want to say its a Magic Elemental I cannot buy Energy Blast, Flash, Force Field, Darkness, and Flight in the slots? That does not make sense.

One SFX needs to be as valid as another. In the Light example, light dampening powers affect the whole EC. In the Magic example, magic dampening powers affect the whole EC. There is no difference.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
One SFX needs to be as valid as another. In the Light example, light dampening powers affect the whole EC. In the Magic example, magic dampening powers affect the whole EC. There is no difference.

EXACTLY! That's the crux of the whole argument. If it is a tight enough group to be defined as a SFX and can be Dispelled, Supressed, Drained, Transfered or Absorbed based on that special effect, then into an EC it goes.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Acroyear

Would you allow "EC: Alien" or "EC: Superpowered Mutant"? I sure wouldn't. Way too vague.

Pre 5th edition, EC's were just cheap excuses to build 400 pt characters on 250 pts.

With 5th edition rules, this type of abuse is self limiting. First of all, special powers and 0 end powers can't be placed there which limits it a lot. Second, any drain or suppress becomes downright scary. Draining or suppressing an EC character's flight now affects his EB, force field, force wall, and darkness at the same time and at double effect (or 1.5 times effect for defense powers). It basically gives you 2X vulnerability to adjustment powers and gives all attackers a free +2 advantage on their adjustment powers vs you.

[Doug McCrae]

It's not easy creating iconic characters. If any one of us could do it whenever we wanted, we'd be making millions in Hollywood right now. Many of the great comicbook characters - Superman, Batman, Captain America, Captain Marvel - rose out of the Golden Age when 5 new superheroes would be invented every week and the cream rose to the top. No one knows you do it for sure, except maybe Stan Lee and his great period of character creation was very brief. Four years at most, in which almost all of Marvel's iconic characters were created - Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, X-Men.

For ordinary folks like ourselves and the good people at Hero, I think Busiek and Alan Moore have shown the way in Astro City and Supreme. You steal. You gotta, there's no other way. Take the essence of the character and muck around a bit with the superficial elements. Samaritan's from another time instead of another planet. Supreme got his powers from a meteor. You'll notice also that neither writer changed the name that much either.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Gary
Pre 5th edition, EC's were just cheap excuses to build 400 pt characters on 250 pts.

With 5th edition rules, this type of abuse is self limiting. First of all, special powers and 0 end powers can't be placed there which limits it a lot. Second, any drain or suppress becomes downright scary. Draining or suppressing an EC character's flight now affects his EB, force field, force wall, and darkness at the same time and at double effect (or 1.5 times effect for defense powers). It basically gives you 2X vulnerability to adjustment powers and gives all attackers a free +2 advantage on their adjustment powers vs you.

Once again Gary places things in perspective. :D

[Acroyear]

Same old "broken" response, as well. I think we've established that you do a whole lot of things differently, Monnie. :)

I find the EC more abusive because it's against the spirit & the word of the rules and also unfair to other EC users at once. Why should Fire Guy not be allowed to buy his non-fire powers inside his "Fire" EC when Mutant Boy can buy anything he wants? Why not everyone just take "EC: Superhero" and save some points? Who cares about the purpose of an EC? Which is not, btw, the create a set of powers that can be drained at once... (you'll also note that many if not most of the comments concerning that change since 5th's release have been "we're ignoring that.")

There's no restriction on "Magic" - that's vague. What powers can and can't be put in there (aside from powers simply disallowed as part of mechanics?). None. Now if it was "Fire Magic" at least we are getting a unified special effect.

Elemental Control is named such for a reason. It's not called "Inter-dependent Powers" or whatever.

People who are going to drain "all mutant powers" are going to drain all mutant powers irregardless of their framework or lack of one - theywill build their power that way. Most people all have their powers from a single source, anyway. By your logic, most everything works as an EC. There are no limits.

The VPP as "magic" would only be abusive if they also took the limited special effect lim. Because "magic" is too vague of an effect which excludes nothing.

:)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
For ordinary folks like ourselves and the good people at Hero, I think Busiek and Alan Moore have shown the way in Astro City and Supreme. You steal. You gotta, there's no other way. Take the essence of the character and muck around a bit with the superficial elements. Samaritan's from another time instead of another planet. Supreme got his powers from a meteor. You'll notice also that neither writer changed the name that much either.

I think you've hit the Head on the nail (or something like that). All of this goes back to the CORE icons. What is Superman but a modern Hercules? One's an alien from another planet, the other is an alien from Mt. Olympus... yeah, I know he's a demi-god, but you get the point). Batman owes his roots to the Shadow and the Spider who trace their roots back to Sherlock Holmes and C. Auguste Dupin.

I think that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has shown us that...

[Acroyear]

Ah, here we go. This might sum up my opinion on "vague" things like magic or alien as sources of power rather than the SFX.

Magic is not a special effect, it is a source of power. If you have a magic attack, you must define the special effect - for one, so that your target knows which defense to apply. While vague, "only vs magic (any special effect)" for a defense is not worth more or less of a limitation, on average, as something like "only vs fire (any power source)" because magic, in general, is probably just as common as fire. Now "only vs magic fire" would be worth more.

Superman, for example, does not have "alien vision" he has "heat vision." The source of his power is his alien heritage, the SFX of the power is "heat."

I'll leave it at that. Everyone will form their own opinion.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Ah, here we go. This might sum up my opinion on "vague" things like magic or alien as sources of power rather than the SFX.

Magic is not a special effect, it is a source of power. If you have a magic attack, you must define the special effect - for one, so that your target knows which defense to apply. While vague, "only vs magic (any special effect)" for a defense is not worth more or less of a limitation, on average, as something like "only vs fire (any power source)" because magic, in general, is probably just as common as fire. Now "only vs magic fire" would be worth more.

Superman, for example, does not have "alien vision" he has "heat vision." The source of his power is his alien heritage, the SFX of the power is "heat."

I'll leave it at that. Everyone will form their own opinion.

I completely see your point, but (and there is always a but) what about Supress and Dispel... if you can Dispel Magic or Supress Magic, doesn't tht make it a SFX? As oppossed to Dispel Alien... which is kinda silly (but funny)

[KawangaKid]

You mean I can't have EC - Alien Mutant God Powers? Isn't that a set of powers from the same SFX?:p

I liked Astro City's iconic characters. Samaritan was one of my faves because he really was a "Man of Tomorrow".

[Gary]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Same old "broken" response, as well. I think we've established that you do a whole lot of things differently, Monnie. :)

I find the EC more abusive because it's against the spirit & the word of the rules and also unfair to other EC users at once. Why should Fire Guy not be allowed to buy his non-fire powers inside his "Fire" EC when Mutant Boy can buy anything he wants? Why not everyone just take "EC: Superhero" and save some points? Who cares about the purpose of an EC? Which is not, btw, the create a set of powers that can be drained at once... (you'll also note that many if not most of the comments concerning that change since 5th's release have been "we're ignoring that.")

There's no restriction on "Magic" - that's vague. What powers can and can't be put in there (aside from powers simply disallowed as part of mechanics?). None. Now if it was "Fire Magic" at least we are getting a unified special effect.

Elemental Control is named such for a reason. It's not called "Inter-dependent Powers" or whatever.

People who are going to drain "all mutant powers" are going to drain all mutant powers irregardless of their framework or lack of one - theywill build their power that way. Most people all have their powers from a single source, anyway. By your logic, most everything works as an EC. There are no limits.

The VPP as "magic" would only be abusive if they also took the limited special effect lim. Because "magic" is too vague of an effect which excludes nothing.

:)

If people are ignoring the 'drain one drain all' limitation, then EC's do become abusive. However, they are balanced if you play the rules as written.

I wouldn't mind if players put any non-special, non-0 end power in a EC at all no matter how unlike they are. They'll pay for it eventually when the drains and suppresses come out.

It would have probably been simpler and more elegant to replace EC's with a -1/2 'drain one drain all at double effect' limitation, but EC's are embedded in the fabric of Champions and this is an acceptable way of limiting the abuse.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
What is Superman but a modern Hercules?
Do you think Buffy is the current bearer of the 'strongman' mantle? The Hercules of the modern age.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Do you think Buffy is the current bearer of the 'strongman' mantle? The Hercules of the modern age.

Maybe. Buffy is Chosen and from among the people and would be thought of as crazy, so I get a Joan of Arc vibe from her (substitute Vampires for the English).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Acroyear
[BWhy should Fire Guy not be allowed to buy his non-fire powers inside his "Fire" EC when Mutant Boy can buy anything he wants? Why not everyone just take "EC: Superhero" and save some points?[/b]
When you really think about it, there are few powers which would not fit into a "Fire" Elemental. For example:

Change Enviroment: Make things fiery
Clairsentience: See through fires
Darkness: So fiery no one can see through it
Desolidification: Turn into fire
Dispel: Turn off fires
Drain: Sure, drain other fire powers
Duplification: Making fiery forms which can attack
Energy Blast: A given
Entangle: Melt slag around the character
Extra-Dimensional Movement: Move to Fire plane
Flash: Yep, no problems
Flight: See it all the time
Force Field: See that all the time too
Force Wall: Check out Firewing's Wall Of Fire
Hand-to-hand: Fiery Clubs
Healing: The healing kiss of fire as Regeneration
Images: Human Torch does it all the time
Invisibility: Make myself so hot I am invisible to sight
HKA: Same fiery club as above or Damage Shield
RKA: Any ranged attack
Leaping: Thrusting hot air beneath yourself
Mind Control: Hypnotic fires
Running: Fire-sprinting making small puffs of heat beneath your feet which allow you to take larger steps
Stretching: Single body part as in Flame's Touch
Summon: Summoning fire elementals
Suppress: Suppressing fire powers
Telekinesis: Flame hands
Teleportation: Fire Leaps
Transform: Turn someone into a fire elemental
Tunneling: Burn holes in ground

That is every legal power except for these:
Density Increase, Ego Attack, Growth, Mental Illusion, Mind Scan, Multiform, Shape Shift, Shrinking, Swimming, Telepathy,
and Transfer.

I would bet someone could also come up with proper examples to fit many of those powers into an EC as well; I just could not think of any. The point is that Fire Guy is not really limited by needing to define his SFX because almost everything works

[Tech]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Would you allow "EC: Alien" or "EC: Superpowered Mutant"? I sure wouldn't. Way too vague.

For the most part, I agree. However, in a recent character that was created in the campaign I'm in, something like that was allowed. It was the only one like that but it was allowed. A special case, I'll admit but it was still allowed.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I completely see your point, but (and there is always a but) what about Supress and Dispel... if you can Dispel Magic or Supress Magic, doesn't tht make it a SFX? As oppossed to Dispel Alien... which is kinda silly (but funny)

Not necessarily (and there is also a common "drain mutant powers" which is equally silly. It's like draining "human" powers which affects all the stats, running & swimming. Mutations are genetic and wildly different). I agree there's some crossover in terms of adjustment powers, I don't dispute that, at all. But a SFX creates a set of rules all by itself in how the environment interacts with it. Like electricity or ice. Magic, in and of itself, does not have these more common interactions because, in all our geekish glory, what affects magic is magic (and maybe a few rare elements).

In terms of adjustment powers like that, the power source is considered as common as a SFX in an overall, well rounded, supers world. The number of magicians is roughly equal to the number of fire guys (a great generalization) so things that impact them might be considered on more even ground.

Magic, too (and mutant, and alien) have absolutely no restrictions on them in terms of power sets. Someone who is a Fire Guy has a limited set of abilities. You can get pretty creative and invent neat stuff (a fire based STN, CON, REC drain, for example... using heat to dehydrate someone) but, ultimately, it's limited by the whole heat/fire SFX.

Magic, on the other hand, isn't limited in any way. Someone with a magic pool, for example, can just as easily have a mundane machinegun that isn't magical, at all, in operation. "I cast a spell and summon a machinegun." The attack, itself, isn't magical...it's just bullets. Defenses only vs magic wouldn't work (this is why I say it doesn't count as a "limited set of effect" in terms of VPPs).

The idea behind an EC, and although I don't have the book handy, I'm sure it says as much, is intended to reward a concept with a SFX set. You can only fit in powers that meet that SFX. Allowing a power source (like magic) as an SFX creates an EC (or any framework, like a VPP) allows construction of the framework without any sort of limitation to which powers can be selected.

In your "Magic Elemental" discussion above... what powers are excluded? You can have literally anything with something like that. Meanwhile, a Fire Elemental isn't going to be busting out with a sonic disruption blast or a shower of cold iron as part of his power set. This is not even ground (like how the adjustment powers work).

Now in an all mutant or all magic campaign, I would think the adjustment powers bought vague are out of whack, too.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Not necessarily (and there is also a common "drain mutant powers" which is equally silly. It's like draining "human" powers which affects all the stats, running & swimming. Mutations are genetic and wildly different). I agree there's some crossover in terms of adjustment powers, I don't dispute that, at all. But a SFX creates a set of rules all by itself in how the environment interacts with it. Like electricity or ice. Magic, in and of itself, does not have these more common interactions because, in all our geekish glory, what affects magic is magic (and maybe a few rare elements).

*snips long well thought out post*

Now in an all mutant or all magic campaign, I would think the adjustment powers bought vague are out of whack, too.

I see your point and I guess we'll just respectfully agree to disagree

[Acroyear]

If ECs were used as they are supposed to (imo) you don't need the inter-dependent portion of them to prevent abuse.

Unlike Monolith's example above, I don't believe "fire" can heal nor provide extra-dimensional movement (among other things). While it might be suitable for a magical fire being, it is certainly not due to the fire aspects of the character. And, again, even if one were to allow such things... they are stuck with a fire effect. Magic can be anything fire, cold, sonics, gremlin helpers, light, darkness, steel, plagues, magnetics, gravity, summoned spacement with rayguns, etc, etc.

The problem is, people allow these super vague things to count as SFX and then complain "oh, this is unbalanced." Well, no kidding. If you allow that sort of thing, then, yeah, you need the inter-dependent nature of 5th ECs.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I see your point and I guess we'll just respectfully agree to disagree

I am perfectly cool with that.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I am perfectly cool with that.

See... we're all such nice people :D
*GROUP HUG*

[Acroyear]

Let's go back to making Hermit feel inadequate....

Be happy, you're a 150 point follower... not too shabby! I'll even let you drive the Acromobile.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Unlike Monolith's example above, I don't believe "fire" can heal nor provide extra-dimensional movement (among other things). While it might be suitable for a magical fire being, it is certainly not due to the fire aspects of the character.
I did not say fire could "heal". I said fire could give the person regenerations (he walks into fire and gets healed). Put out the character's fire, he cannot Regen back that BODY damage.


And, again, even if one were to allow such things... they are stuck with a fire effect. Magic can be anything fire, cold, sonics, gremlin helpers, light, darkness, steel, plagues, magnetics, gravity, summoned spacement with rayguns, etc, etc.
I think your problem is that you have too broad of a view of what magic is. Magic is not "summoned spacement with rayguns." Not in anyone's books. :)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
Another potential flamewar shot down! How will I ever get my post count up without the flamewars? I'll have to start posting in the non-gaming forums now. :)

Oh... fine...
*George Bush is a Doo-doo-head!
*The Scandanavisnas are barbarian animals by allowing the sun to shine at night!
*Moderate politicians are stealing babies and feeding them to Michael Jackson!

Is that better?:D

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Monolith
I think your problem is that you have too broad of a view of what magic is. Magic is not "summoned spacement with rayguns." Not in anyone's books. :)

Magic can't be used to gate people from other worlds? Why not?

That's the point. :) The spacemen with rayguns aren't magic, themselves, but with "magic powers" you could certainly summon them. If a magician summons a lion to fight someone... or a snake or whatever (both much more commonly accepted than spacemen, I would assume) neither of the animals, themselves, are magical. The lion doesn't attack with "magic" claws and the snake doesn't attack with "magic" snake venom. It's just claws and snake venom. Similarly, spacemen with rayguns are hitting you with lasers or whatever, not eldritch bolts.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I never liked Solitaire, for example. I don't think "Magic" qualifies as tight special effect for something like an EC. I mean, let's face it, in gamer geekdom (and much to my annoyance) "magic can do anything." How or why magic should or could be the ultimate force in the universe... well, because it's magic.

Would you allow "EC: Alien" or "EC: Superpowered Mutant"? I sure wouldn't. Way too vague.

The author of the 4th ed Champions Universe versions agreed with you, which is why Solitaire's is gone. :-)

Mind you, if I'd done what Steve did and bought the company, the first thing I would have done would have been to take the section of the Hero rules that deals with Elemental Controls, rip them out if the manuscript and bury them under six feet of concrete. That construct would have been history faster than CLOWN. :-)

Scott Bennie

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Monolith
I did vote for Mother Raven... but don't tell anyone. :)

I didn't. "Mother Raven" indeed! Damn Eastern Canadians futzing with with West Coast myths. Stick to your own side of the country! :-)

Scott Bennie

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
I didn't. "Mother Raven" indeed! Damn Eastern Canadians futzing with with West Coast myths. Stick to your own side of the country! :-)

True... but she LOOKED cooler

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Monolith
Another potential flamewar shot down! How will I ever get my post count up without the flamewars? I'll have to start posting in the non-gaming forums now. :)

Who was flaming?? (aside from all the fire guys we used as examples).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Acroyear
That's the point. :) The spacemen with rayguns aren't magic, themselves, but with "magic powers" you could certainly summon them.
The difference is that I would not allow a mage in my game to summon a Deathstar. The GM does have some responsibilty to enforce genre and play balance. The rules are only guidelines for this. They are not absolutes. You are looking for an absolute, and that is just not possible within the HERO System.

We each have to play our own way, but even with our differences I bet you would have some fun playing in my game and I would have some fun playing in yours. :)

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
The author of the 4th ed Champions Universe versions agreed with you, which is why Solitaire's is gone. :-)

I'd kiss you. But I think you're to blame for goofy-ing up Deathstroke, so we'll just call it even. ;)

If not, I'll have to blame it on being Canadian or something, because I really don't want to kiss you.

and this after I asked "who's flaming?"

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Monolith
We each have to play our own way, but even with our differences I bet you would have some fun playing in my game and I would have some fun playing in yours. :)

No you wouldn't. I suck as a GM :D Which is why I've been working on a pet-campaign. I figure if it's all mine and I like it, I might improve.

I see, you put your restrictions on during play. We put the restrictions on in the construction... saves time, imo. We also have a huge group (11 people) so you might not be running into the same issues we do if you have a smaller one (most groups seem to be half the size or less).

The guy who usually runs for us is prety damn good, in my opinion, though. Kept the team going since, hell, '82?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Mind you, if I'd done what Steve did and bought the company, the first thing I would have done would have been to take the section of the Hero rules that deals with Elemental Controls, rip them out if the manuscript and bury them under six feet of concrete. That construct would have been history faster than CLOWN. :-)
I actually like Elementals now. I did not care for them in 4th, but I like the description of them in 5th. I think there are many games on the market which just has an ambiguous name of Fire Powers. Then the player and GM must decide what "stunts" fire powers entail for the player. This is now the same with Elemental Controls. The player buys Fire Power EC and then he and the GM fill out the slots with the predefined "stunts" the player an do with the power. This makes a lot of sense to me and makes it easier to define the power rather than just throwing everything you want into it willy-nilly.

If you think of the EC as the power, and the slots as the power stunts it all works out. :)

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I'd kiss you. But I think you're to blame for goofy-ing up Deathstroke, so we'll just call it even. ;)

If not, I'll have to blame it on being Canadian or something, because I really don't want to kiss you.

and this after I asked "who's flaming?"

Actually, the 4th edition Deathstroke was the work of Scott Heine.

As for the kiss, uh, urm, no comment. (Even though as a people, we Canadians are sexier than Jennifer Garner. :-))

Scott Bennie

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Actually, the 4th edition Deathstroke was the work of Scott Heine.

As for the kiss, uh, urm, no comment. (Even though as a people, we Canadians are sexier than Jennifer Garner. :-))

Scott Bennie

All you Scotts look alike...or is that Canadians?:D

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Actually, the 4th edition Deathstroke was the work of Scott Heine.

As for the kiss, uh, urm, no comment. (Even though as a people, we Canadians are sexier than Jennifer Garner. :-))


Can I blame you for it, anyway?

now I have to go see who Jennifer Garner is... James Garner, I'll give you that...

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Can I blame you for it, anyway?

now I have to go see who Jennifer Garner is... James Garner, I'll give you that...

THIS is Jennifer Garner... Woof!

<img src="http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0206/03/elektra.jpg" width="334" height="504">

[Acroyear]

Is that a woof as in "what a dog" or a "woof" as in the the blood rushes out of my brain so fast it knocked the wind out of me?

Ok, I'll accept the Canadian people, as a whole, are sexier than Jennifer Garner (I don't like her face - I'm very picky about drooling over media stars). And we all know Canadians are easier -it's one of the top three reasons to visit. 1)Cheap, 2)Maple Creme Cookies, 3)Easy.

:D

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Is that a woof as in "what a dog" or a "woof" as in the the blood rushes out of my brain so fast it knocked the wind out of me?

The later. She's very cute... especially in Daredevil. I like a woman who can prod buttock.

[Cybernaut]

Originally posted by Monolith
I did vote for Mother Raven... but don't tell anyone. :)

He's over here! Quick, bring the tar and feathers! (Just Kidding ;) )

[tesuji]

My view on Ecs and FX/source...

When you look at VPPS and their "limited FX" things you see different levels of limitation...

extremely broad ones like MAGIC or MUTANT is only a -1/4 (and this reflects the basic sense the "one drain works vs any" while not really limiting the power selection atall. You are hosed in an antimagic field, not being able to dial up a techno-ray-gun.) These i tend to describe as SOURCE restrictions.

Narrower ones like fire powers or ice powers are a bigger limit because they tend to not only limit source but also power selection. These are at -1/2 or somesuch. (Admittedly, if your Gm considers FIRE HANDS as some sort of solid fire can act like real hands TK thingy, then these can be diluted enough to be as broad as the above and should get that much of a lim as well. ME? I don't allow fire force fields for -1/2.)

The problem is that with the Ec while there is a general restriction on common FX it does not specify at what level the limitation should be. This means that at some point the limitation is either being underplayed or overplayed without the points reflecting the capability.

EC Helpful withceries is a really broad category, or so it seems by the examples, while EC ice powers seems a lot closer to limiting powers as well as FX.

An Ec with a basic "source" limit such as magic is not as limited as one with a source and power selection limiting FX defined. However, since the vauge definition is the one we have, i doubt anyone would permit:

EC: Magic powers (-1/4 limited to ice powers only)

If instead they had given some basic level of restriction akin to "Ecs must have a FX limit at least as strong as that of the -1/4 level fpr VPPs" then we would have had a common reference to go on.

Better yet, if they had realized that "LIMITED FX" had meaning in more than one place... both in EC and in VPP, they cold have had an independent chart "Limited by FX" with a number of good examples showing us everything from "magic" and "mutant" to "ice power" and "shrinking power" and for both frameworks we could have a good point of reference. (Add in a paragraph about making these change based on campaign desires.)

Another possibility would be to say something like" reference the SFX frequency chart for the campaign (as seen in the Champions universe book IIRC) and to specify what level of frequency ECs have to meet.

Define a benchmark and then allow for advantages or limitations to reflect narrower ones.

then, everyone gets their monies worth and no more.

of course, we already have gaps in the Ec drain thing where things like DRAIN FLIGHT may or may not double drain based on Gm ruling as to whether he wants the double drain to happen if its not SFX based... using common sense, dramatic sense and maturity.

[SuperPheemy]

That construct would have been history faster than CLOWN. :-)

Garble. FRRRRRRTZZZZZZTTTTTT ******* SHWASAAAAAAKKKKK*** WeeeeeeeoOooooooh*

(Screen comes in to focus on Merry Andrew again, this time wearing an Iraqi general's uniform and fake moustache a la Saddam Hussein)

"What Mr. Bennie fails to understand is that CLOWN does not belong to history. CLOWN makes History! To illustrate our point, we have taken the liberty of uncovering and altering certain documents from Mr. Bennie's past, that is to say, we have MADE SCOTT BENNIE'S HISTORY!

Or, in this case, remade Scott Bennie's History. So, Mr. Bennie good luck in all of your future endeavors when you're going to be hampered by the legacy of your PERMANENT GRADE SCHOOL RECORDS. Indeed! Imagine the glorious carreers that await someone who is now forever branded as a Looky-loo, a Silly-heart, and a Chatterbox. Indeed, you can only beg CLOWN's forgiveness to remove that gum-chewing incident in third grade.

You don't remember? Allow me to enlighten you. It was during a fire drill in the afternoon, you were waiting outside, and according to a Mrs. Eunice Greeley, Elementary School Safety Monitor, you were chewing gum in line! What's worse, you failed to bring enough for the entire school!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, your former normal, mundane past has been forever altered to a history of hooliganism. That perfect attendance you so enjoyed in sixth grade? GONE FOREVER!!!!

Let this serve as a lesson to all who would mock or oppose CLOWN! Our vengeance is swift and just!

Viva la Revolucion CLOWN!!!!"

(from off camera someone, maybe Dot, or perhaps Beuford shouts "Arrriba!" and fires a gun into the air. Snapshot calls for a wrap, and the transmission breaks back up into static.)

[GestaltBennie]

To do list:

1. Finish editing the teraphim chapter on Testament,
2. Repair damage to cover identity.
3. Eviscerate Merry Andrews, key the CLOWN-car.
4. Pick up a quart of milk.

Scott Bennie

[Scott Heine]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I'd kiss you. But I think you're to blame for goofy-ing up Deathstroke, so we'll just call it even...[/i]

No, that would be me, not Mr. Bennie. Does that mean I don't get a kiss?

-- Scott

P.S. Personally, I think Deathstroke needed to be "goofied up." I never liked the original characters' names or costumes. And they needed... something... to round them out and make them interesting. Yeah, the revision was written in a hurry, but I thought the concept of a villain team with a publicist was kinda fun...

[Blue]

I'll be honest in saying that I don't spend a lot of time studying the heroes and villains from the book unless there is one I have a use for. So when it comes to judging the SASv.Champions fights I've been going based on the author's interpretations of how each handles the other character's powers. So in most cases I'm swayed by the person's ability to tell a story.

I think both authors did a great job of telling the story of the fight between Mother Raven and Witchcraft, and so when it came down to it, I was pretty much split. In that case, tie went to champions. (Sorry, SAS.)

In the new one however I definitely like the SAS story better. I've just resisted voting for a whole day now because I hate to turn my back on the product I like better. But I may have to break down and vote for the SAS hero. I think Steve & Co. can respect that.

[cjudisch]

FWIW, I look upon characters (or any portion of a published setting) that i don't like as an opportunity. When I first picked up Champions Universe and read through it, I took note of the characters, places, and things that didn't jibe with my personal gaming style/tastes/what-have-you and put them into a list (CU is pretty good, so the list is relatively short).

Now, as I'm constructing adventures & plot-arcs for my campaign, the list of people, places, and things that i don't like is turning into a Hit List of things that are going to be destroyed.

For example (and I know I'm going to get hammered for this one), I'm not terribly fond of Foxbat. So after a few encounters with the PCs... ol' Freddie's gonna die.

It allows me to turn something I don't like about the setting into something i do.

Same thing with the members of the Champions team I don't like. Actually, the death's of Ironclad & Sapphire are going to form the central plot of the campaign's first adventure and the PCs will step up and flesh out the remainder of the team (swelling the groups total membership to seven as well).

I find that judicious use of the in-game deaths of established NPCs makes the campaign more dramatic and exciting.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Scott Heine
Personally, I think Deathstroke needed to be "goofied up." I never liked the original characters' names or costumes. And they needed... something... to round them out and make them interesting. Yeah, the revision was written in a hurry, but I thought the concept of a villain team with a publicist was kinda fun...

I LIKED what you did with Deathstroke... after the Destroke module they were already pretty much a joke with my group.

[Hermit]

Actually, I took the plunge and started to use them as NPCs. I've grown to like them. Once you flesh them out, it works well...
The major problems with the current champions are :
1) It is hard not to compare them, or even confuse them with the 4th Edition Champions. Don't. Judge Ironclad on his own merits, and he's actually kind of cool for example.
2) With the exception of perhaps Defender, the backgrounds seem rushed. Well, there was only so much room in the book. Also take a peek at Talisman when you're looking over Witchcraft. My suggestion here is to see those only briefly mentioned moments as things to be developed and expanded.
3) With Millenium City not out yet, it does seem there is no logical reason for the Champions to be around your PCs (Who are the stars). This is a shame, as you need to Role Play them to expand them. Find a reason for them to visit the PCs. For that matter, have the PCs help the Champions and let them decide who they do or don't like.


Some suggested plot seeds for your PC team, related to the Champions:

Defender: James Harmon IV is holding a charity ball (Or some other social function, it works best if you have a PC in Charity work or high society as well). That is when ARGENT agents attack, having infiltrated as the serving staff. They know Defender has a knack for showing up when Harmon Industries is in trouble. This 'hold up' is a ruse, to try to get a scan of the Defender armor. ARGENT would then have Defender's tech in their hands. The PCs present just became the wildcards that might prevent this ambush and theft from working.

Ironclad: We tend to forget the Dorlavian is AWOL from his people's military forces. Perhaps this part of the story is something he's not shared, even with his teammates. A crack team of Dorlavian commandos arrives, and attempts to 'repo' Ironclad for official court maritial and punishment. Perhaps his fellow Champions are out of town when this occurs. Will any of the PCs help someone who is labelled 'deserter' ? And why now? Maybe this is a ruse to save some higher officer's carreer.

Nighthawk: Your team of PCs returns to their own base. They might, or might not notice (depending on senses and perception rolls) that some security measures have been bypassed. There is a scent of blood. They find the wounded (And possibly dying if he doesn't get help) Nighthawk. The Champions have been captured, Homestead is compromised... and he's the only one to have escaped.

Sapphire: Corrie is holding another concert, something she doesn't get to do as often now that she's a hero. It's political in nature, kind of a "Para-normals are people too" message to it. Encouraging tolerance and understanding. Naturally, not everyone is so fond of this stuff. One Wyoming Senator is there, scowling. He gets up on stage to protest her open display of mutant powers...things get heated, and a there is a sudden dimming of the lights and a blue flash! And the Sentator lays dead, the glowing Sapphire looking around and swearing "I didn't do it"!
The IHA , working behind the scenes, is quick to pull strings. A Judge in their pocket puts a restraining order on Corrie's team mates NOT to interfere OR participate in the crimework (Clearly, the Champions would be biased). That's where the PCs come in. Hello Mystery.

Witchcraft: The normally quiet occultist is acting weird lately. She's acting more confident, and that's good. She's wearing more revealing costumes.. and that's... beweldering, though no guys are complaining. She may even be commiting crimes. The Champions might try to defend their friend from the PCs until they can figure out what's wrong. The PCs maybe trying to capture her (or heck, one might be dating her, how many women does Defender NEED besmitten anyways?). What is going on? Is Witchcraft being corrupted by her sister or parents? or is it Witchcraft at all? Perhaps Talisman has been watching old Bewitched reruns where sisters swap. :)

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Scott Heine
P.S. Personally, I think Deathstroke needed to be "goofied up." I never liked the original characters' names or costumes. And they needed... something... to round them out and make them interesting. Yeah, the revision was written in a hurry, but I thought the concept of a villain team with a publicist was kinda fun...

No kiss for you!

Deathstroke was a major player in our game for years, so I had an obvious bias. In fact, it was them and the Ultimates that were our usual recurring villains for quite a while... even joining forces when half of their respective members were jailed. They were on quite the tech theft binge... at one point they had 2 Minutemen and one of Mechanon's spare bodies.

I thought the Arrowhead change was weird. Of course the name didn't make sense if you changed his powers from armor piercing to explosion :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Let's go back to making Hermit feel inadequate....


Well, I guess you have to have your hobbies
:p

[TheEmerged]

I agree with the comment that they're there as an example, to be used if you want to use them. I kept Defender, Sapphire, and Ironclad pretty much as listed. I renamed Nighthawk to NightSeeker, renamed some of his special effects (he doesn't have batons he has sais, he doesn't have pellets he has shuriken). Witchcraft just doesn't do anything for me so I brought Solitaire back (although the actual writeup is somewhere between the traditional Soli & WC's) -- but then, I've always had a soft spot for Soli. I've ended up adding Jaguar back to the team partially to counteract some of my PC's powers.

What I want to know is, who's responsible for Solitaire being a barmaid/waitress now? (CU5 pg 148, picture)

[Mutant for Hire]

Personally I would have been happier if they had stripped the names and backgrounds and left them as generic characters with slots to be filled in by the GM. Generic Power Armor, Generic Energy Blaster, etc. Usable as heroes or villains, fill in whatever background and motivation that you want, at least for the base Champions book.

Maybe if there's a signature team for the Champions Universe it would be more of a JLA/Avengers level team. Very powerful and fixtuers of the universe.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Maybe if there's a signature team for the Champions Universe it would be more of a JLA/Avengers level team. Very powerful and fixtuers of the universe.
The CU has two such teams: The Justice Squadron and the Sentinels. Both have been around for decades and are considered major power-house teams in the US. If anything, these two teams are the iconic teams of the CU.

[Just A Guy Name]

Originally posted by Monolith
Same old arguments over and over.
<snip>
What is more abusive. 100 pt Magic Pool (costing 150 points and allow you to do anything with a Magic Roll and a Full Phase) or a 60 point Magic Elemental (allowing you to have the base EC and 4 other 60 AP slots)? In the long-run the VPP is far more abusive.
Indeed. Which is a good argument for not allowing VPP either! :)

[Champsguy]

Personally, I always felt that ECs should be self-explanatory. You should be able to tell someone who had never played Champions before the name of your EC and they should be able to tell you what powers were inside (or at least understand what powers were inside).

Instead of saying "I've got Energy Blast, RKA, Flight, blah blah blah in my EC", I'd say, "I've got Fire Powers".
Then they'd say "So you can cover yourself in fire? And fly? And shoot fire at people?"
And I'd say "Yes. I can also control any fires in the area/make a wall of fire/dehydrate people."

If they look at you blankly and say "Huh?", then it shouldn't go in there. Sorry, you can't Teleport just because there's a poof of fire when you do it. It's got to make more sense than that.

Werewolf powers, fire powers, ice powers, telekinetic powers, vampire powers, and 80's music video powers all give the listener some idea of the stuff you can do and the limitations on it. "Magic powers" doesn't.

Of course, we play with EC: Kryptonian Powers, so take this for what it's worth (but it does fit my requirement--most people know what powers you're gonna have).

[lemming]

I liked the first incarnation of the Champions, later named the Guardians. Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, etc... I never liked the 4th edition characters, but I liked them more than 5th edition overall.

On Deathstroke: I liked the original and the update.

[Greg K.]

I have no problem with Magic ECs. I view ECs as manipulating a source of energy or matter for various effects.

[Greg K.]

Originally posted by lemming
I liked the first incarnation of the Champions, later named the Guardians. Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, etc... I never liked the 4th edition characters, but I liked them more than 5th edition overall.

On Deathstroke: I liked the original and the update.

I am still waiting for the Guardians sourcebook by Mr. MacDonald--it has only been about 20 years. :)

BTW, speaking of cool Champions characters, I really liked George MacDonald's version of Quantum from Dragon Magazine #101. Her powers grew stronger or weaker depending on the level of the threat.

[Glen Sprigg]

I've mixed the 4th and 5th edition teams for my campaign. Solitaire is part of another team (using her background in Ultimate Mentalist, she joined up with a team of teenage heroes instead of the Champions).

My Champions lineup is:
Defender
Ironclad
Nighthawk
Seeker
Quantum
Jaguar
Kinetik
Witchcraft
Sapphire
Sea Guard (from 4th edition Atlantis)

This gives them 10 members, equaling the Protectors in number and relative strength. I left out Obsidian because of the 'twenty-year' clause in his background; his time was up, so he returned home to do princely stuff. Ironclad showed up shortly thereafter to fill the brick role.

Far from reducing their power, I've also expanded Eurostar a bit...be afraid. :)

Fiacho
Durak
Bora
Pantera
White Flame
Ultrasonique
The Whip
Mentalla
Doppleganger (EE)
Spector (EE)
Edward Vandaleur (MM)
Anais Vandaleur (MM)

Now, if that lineup doesn't frighten the heroes...they haven't fought them yet. :)

Glen

[Acroyear]

Ultimate Deathstroke (I don't think they could decide) was:

Binder
Plasmoid
Blackstar
Slick
Deathsinger
Stinger (with additional emphasis on insect agents)
Arrowhead
Death Commando
Dr. Draconis (who did a whole lot of cyborging animals and insects along with occasional power amplifying experiments for the others)
2 Minutemen
Mechanon (a reprogrammed spare body)

Frost and Charger seemed to end up in jail most often for some reason, but their membership rotated with the two teams and they were always a major hassle trying to keep them locked up.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Personally I would have been happier if they had stripped the names and backgrounds and left them as generic characters with slots to be filled in by the GM. Generic Power Armor, Generic Energy Blaster, etc. Usable as heroes or villains, fill in whatever background and motivation that you want, at least for the base Champions book.

Maybe if there's a signature team for the Champions Universe it would be more of a JLA/Avengers level team. Very powerful and fixtuers of the universe.

I agree with this completely. The Champions have been around so long, you'd think they'd be more powerful. I could understand back in the BBB they were a starting level Superhero group. But most of us dont look at them that way anymore. Especialy when you consider they are the team representing Hero in the Hero/SAS showdown. I also remember there was a book that came out that had more powerful versions of the champions during the 4th ed run. I didn't have the book(one of the guys in our group did), so I don't remember the name of it. If I remember correctly though, the Champions were significantly more powerful than the ones listed in the BBB. I see them in the 500+ point area.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
I agree with this completely. The Champions have been around so long, you'd think they'd be more powerful. I could understand back in the BBB they were a starting level Superhero group.
You need to keep in mind that 5th Edition is a different game world than past editions. The new Champions Universe has no real connection to the old CU, outside of the fact that there are 50 or so characters being used from the old universe.

The Champions in the CU have only been a hero group for a few months, and are the same power level as any other beginning-level character. Those characters are not the "icons" of the new CU within the universe itself; they are just the only characters we have stats for.

[Blue]

Generally speaking, the iconic characters are intended to be examples of common heroes like the ones you will build when you buy the book. Accounting for experience everytime they republished the book would make them overpowered examples. Adopting a new set of iconic starting level characters each time gives the game less identity.

I think the beatdown was well orchestrated but I'd like to make a suggestion for next time they do this sort of thing:

Have players write the showdowns and then submit them to the publisher of the respective games. The publisher picks one and submits it for the beatdown. It's technically more work for the publisher, who'd have a lot of reading to do, but it gets the players involved more.

[death tribble]

Have to say that I think Kinetic is a stinker. That's just the way I see it.
I did not vote in Slipstream vs Kinetic as I liked neither of them.
I voted against Caliburn because the Champs guy looked better but yes I voted for Red Phoenix against Defender.
And I voted for Sentinal because I read his history and thought it good.

I agree about Ironclad. Just not that good IMHO.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Monolith
The Champions in the CU have only been a hero group for a few months, and are the same power level as any other beginning-level character. Those characters are not the "icons" of the new CU within the universe itself; they are just the only characters we have stats for.
Fair enough. And I wasn't aware of the Justice Squadron and Sentinels you mentioned in another post. But why were the Champions entered in a "Who's the most iconic?" competition, then? That's just confusing people.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Fair enough. And I wasn't aware of the Justice Squadron and Sentinels you mentioned in another post. But why were the Champions entered in a "Who's the most iconic?" competition, then? That's just confusing people.
Well, almost any character can be an icon to some extent. The Champions just happen to be low-powered icons. :)

The simple fact, to me anyway, just deals with the fact that the Champions bear the game's name, and thus represent the game. There is also the fact that there are no published stats for the Justice Squadron or the Sentinels (and it doesn't appear as though they will be forthcoming too quickly either). If DOJ used the Justice Squadron for the showdown everyone would be asking: "Who are they? I've never seen stats for them. How I am supposed to know what they can do?"

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Monolith
You need to keep in mind that 5th Edition is a different game world than past editions. The new Champions Universe has no real connection to the old CU, outside of the fact that there are 50 or so characters being used from the old universe.


I think that's what bugged me the most about this new edition, the wide arm changes. It feels more like "Steve Longs," campaign then the Champions Universe I've used since 1st Edition.

honestly I liked the 4th edition Iconics better, but if you look the 5th edition are basically the same characters, just designed different..

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
I think that's what bugged me the most about this new edition, the wide arm changes. It feels more like "Steve Longs," campaign then the Champions Universe I've used since 1st Edition.
I have a feeling that Steve Long's campaign is more along the lines of Hudson City (Dark Champions) than Champions Universe (four-color). :)

Personally, I like the changes. After 20 years the CU was getting stale (same villains, same villain groups, same heroes, etc). The changes keep just enough of the old, and add just enough of the new, to add some freshness back into the world.

[SuperPheemy]

As someone else said, the Champions characters are designed as examples for a role-playing game. They're examples of what an "average" 350 point hero could look like. Effort was made to include background-sympathetic skills, and a sense of well-rounded balance.

In contrast, the Guard characters are designed to be "iconic" in the sense that they are an integral part of the default campaign world. In this sense, they are not necessarily well-rounded average starting characters. One cannot really look at Sentinel and use his stats as a guideline for creating an "average" starting character.

Its a fundamental difference in presentation. The Champions are not designed to be the internationally-recognized supergroup bringing hope to the entire world. Maybe one day they will be, but they represent the player's characters in the Champions Universe Story. The Champions are designed to ultimately play second fiddle to the player groups in the CU campaign. On the other hand, the Guard is the "World's greatest superteam" in their universe. They're the type of superteam that gets calls from the President when Kreuzritter tries shifting the moon from it's orbit. The Gurard is presented as the group that the players should aspire to be.

To put it another way. When Defender shows up at the end of an adventure to give the PCs an "attaboy" speech and hearty handshake, it's like a welcome to the superhero community, sort of a next door neighbor in power armor. However, when the Sentinel shows up to shake your hand, it's supposed to be an early landmark event in the characters' carreer. Like getting a visit from Superman, or Captain America.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Monolith
I have a feeling that Steve Long's campaign is more along the lines of Hudson City (Dark Champions) than Champions Universe (four-color). :)

Personally, I like the changes. After 20 years the CU was getting stale (same villains, same villain groups, same heroes, etc). The changes keep just enough of the old, and add just enough of the new, to add some freshness back into the world.

Personally, I would have been happier if they advanced the old 4th edition universe. Have some supervillain teams fall, other ones arise, shakeups in the lineups and so on. Have the 4th edition Champions as background characters in the universe and have a new team as the presented team in the book.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Personally, I would have been happier if they advanced the old 4th edition universe. Have some supervillain teams fall, other ones arise, shakeups in the lineups and so on. Have the 4th edition Champions as background characters in the universe and have a new team as the presented team in the book.

I agree, that would have been good in my opinion, instead it was torn down and created over again... for the second time (Fuzion). The feel just isn't the same, it's hard to describe a feeling but that's how it feels, it just doesn't feel the same. By doing it, it makes people who use the old world, less likely to pick up supplements for the new universe.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Personally, I would have been happier if they advanced the old 4th edition universe. Have some supervillain teams fall, other ones arise, shakeups in the lineups and so on. Have the 4th edition Champions as background characters in the universe and have a new team as the presented team in the book.

There is some sense of that - the demise of Professor Muerte and the changes in Eurostar's lineup. The Champions remain the 'sample' characters (and I note that they are published in the Champions genre book as such) to showcase 350-point superheroes. There is no hero team whose members' character sheets are presented in Champions Universe, though there are several team (and team members) mentioned by name; from the historical accounts some of these characters are likely very experienced.

[mrswing]

I have to agree about not being impressed by the new Champions. I especially don't understand why only Defender was retained from the original bunch - he always struck me as a pretty dull hybrid of Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. Either come up with something all-new or just update the original characters. Ironclad is my least favourite character but that's primarily because of the visual, I find him very un-appealing with the klingon-like forehead and stuff...
I also have to agree that I am not too happy about the restarting of the universe for this edition. I didn't consider the 4th ed. universe broken or to have run out of steam. Bringing it up to date would have been more to my liking - though that doesn't mean I hate the new elements. In fact, I think the new Champions Universe edition is a fine supplement in itself, it's just that I personally would have preferred a continuation of the old one as it was quite satisfactory for a superhero rpg background.

[Nato]

Personally, I'm glad that a new universe has been started up. It's been so long since the last official (4th Ed) Champions Universe stuff came out, that I think it's nice to have a fresh look at it. I personally like the new villains, and new versions of old favorites, so much better than just about any of the previous edition ones. I think the quality of writing has greatly improved too, so I have very few complaints about the new team or setting.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
I think that's what bugged me the most about this new edition, the wide arm changes. It feels more like "Steve Longs," campaign then the Champions Universe I've used since 1st Edition.

honestly I liked the 4th edition Iconics better, but if you look the 5th edition are basically the same characters, just designed different..

I kinda view the switch from 4th edition to 5th as a kinda 'crisis on champions earth' sort of thing, history gets reset..the characters are kinda the same..but there are differnces.

[starblaze]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Oh... fine...
*George Bush is a Doo-doo-head!
*The Scandanavisnas are barbarian animals by allowing the sun to shine at night!
*Moderate politicians are stealing babies and feeding them to Michael Jackson!

Is that better?:D

LOL!

[Rage]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Magic can't be used to gate people from other worlds? Why not?

That's the point. :) The spacemen with rayguns aren't magic, themselves, but with "magic powers" you could certainly summon them. If a magician summons a lion to fight someone... or a snake or whatever (both much more commonly accepted than spacemen, I would assume) neither of the animals, themselves, are magical. The lion doesn't attack with "magic" claws and the snake doesn't attack with "magic" snake venom. It's just claws and snake venom. Similarly, spacemen with rayguns are hitting you with lasers or whatever, not eldritch bolts.

But if they are just summons then you still have to see if they will actually work for the caster, and if its a weapon like a ray gun and they are continually having points tied up for it then surley a dispel magic could be ruled to send them back through the void? (Using crap about astral displacement and the like)

Magic is a valid EC effect. Saying that it isn't because the powers used aren't neccisarily magic (e.g creating a pile of meat to drop on captain vegan) so that magic defence isn't effective is like saying a fire guy isn't allowed to burn a part of a wooden beam so the wooden beam drops on top of Lord Imune to Fire Man.

The SFX is common in the EC and thats what matters.

By the by when I do a mage I don't do EC but a VPP

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith
I would bet someone could also come up with proper examples to fit many of those powers into an EC as well; I just could not think of any. The point is that Fire Guy is not really limited by needing to define his SFX because almost everything works
Density Increase--Thats a tough one for fire

Ego Attack--Playing on the Mesmeric qualities of fire, this is easily explained away if No Mental Awareness and Range Penalties Apply are taken

Growth--Easy; surround oneself with a giant fiery exo form, with an offensive Damage Shield perhaps. Also useful to characters which are actually made up of flame; grow really big and burn stuff with your Affects Physical World Offensive Damage Shield.

Mental Illusion--Again, play up the Mesmeric qualities of flame; take a variant 'Requires Eye Contact', defined as target must look at flame.

Mind Scan--ditto on this; basically, Mind Scan only vs targets that are looking into a flame. Good Pyromancer or Demonic schtick as well.

Multiform--many forms of fiery goodness. Great for characters that have a desolid flame form.

Shape Shift--Shape Shift vs Sight for a flame based character that can shape his fire aura into different forms.

Shrinking--Again, the fire form based character could use this to make himself the size of a candle flame. Good shtick.

Swimming--kind of a tough one, but concievably could boil off water, decreasing water resistance.

Telepathy--like the other Mental power, use the Mesmeric properties of Fire; Telepathy, only to read the minds of people looking at a fire.

Transfer--Transfer fire powers to fire powers.

----

[Killer Shrike]

As Ive stated before, I personally am much happier with the 5th Ed Champions Universe. I always genially loathed the 4th Ed CU. IMO it was just a huge corny mishmash.

The new CU is much more dynamic, cleancut, and vibrant to me, and for the 1st time ever in 13 years of using the HERO SYstem as my primary/default game system, Im running a campaign in the actual CU rather than homebrewing a setting.

This is significant because it is something that I never would have done with the 4eCU. Ever. Forget running; I wouldnt even play in a 4eCU campaign. My personal take on 4eCU was easily summed up by 1 word: LAME.

I understand that for those who enjoyed 4eCU, its probably a kick in the teeth, but the thing is you get the best of both worlds. You can keep using your existing campaign and incorporate in elements that you like from 5eCU.

IMO, YMMV