Batman VS. Daredevil

[Pattern Ghost]

The Man Without Fear versus the Man Without Humor... who'd win?

The battlefield: The rooftops of a vey large city where neither character has ever been.

Go!

[Jhamin]

I like Daredevil and all, but at the end of they day he is the poster boy for "you don't have to be built on 500 points to be cool" while Batman is all about "it's amazing how much you can spend on being nasty without ever buying actual superpowers".

I just don't think they are in the same league.

[Hermit]

I need to think on this one. Do the characters in this scenerio know each other? How well?

Daredevil has his superior senses to learn his terrain faster, and that gives him an initial edge if he presses. However, IF (And likely, given the Batman's deductive powers WHEN) Bats figures out the Daredevil's hypersenses are exploitable, it could stack things highly in Batman's favor.

[Enforcer84]

I gotta fall back on my old standby, if Bats knows what he's up against he'll win.

If its mano y mano, never met before? Take a look at his own series, Bats gets thumped the first time everytime.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm abstaining on this one, but...

I never really thought about Bats vs. Daredevil much. However, I was looking around for info on the second Shiva vs. Batgirl fight and found a thread on some other site that devolved into a Bats vs. DD debate, and the DD side did make some interesting points. I mean, the guy picks up barbells loaded with 400 pounds of weight and uses them like a staff, and throws them, he tips over a limo, apparently brought himself back from the dead once...sheesh. I thought he was just some flipping around guy with enhanced senses all these years.

[phydaux]

As much as I LOVE DD, Bats would pimp him out.

If they knew each other and went looking for each other, Bats would win.

If they were both buck-ass naked in a boxing ring for a "fair fight" Bats would win.

DD's only chance would be to attack from ambush. If he didn't KO Bats in the first 2-3 punches, Bats would still win.

I love DD, but he's no Batman.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Jhamin
I like Daredevil and all, but at the end of they day he is the poster boy for "you don't have to be built on 500 points to be cool" while Batman is all about "it's amazing how much you can spend on being nasty without ever buying actual superpowers".

I just don't think they are in the same league.

You've got the right of it.

[Bartman]

Gotta go with Bats on this one.

[Blue]

Somewhere during the combat batman is going to figure out that daredevil is using senses other than sight to do the duel. At that point he's going to implement his bat gadgetry until something screws up Matt Murdock's ability to fight.

[Ranxerox]

Now why did you have to run this pole? DDs one of my favorite characters from way back and I don't even like the Bat but I still had to go with the somewhere dark option.

That just ain't right. :mad:

[Prometheus]

Once upon a time, this was a fair fight, with DD's abilities effectively neutralizing Batman's stealth and gadgets- the guy has swatted bullets out of the air and even beaten Ultron! In the past decade however, Batman has evolved into demi-godness.

Daredevil puts up a good fight, but he goes down in the end.

[pinecone]

I voted for cap,bot DD is just not in batmans league...and I really like DD...no I gotta go with long ears.......

[Vigil]

This one has already been done in the Daredevil/Batman crossover and it seemed to pretty decisively indicate that Bats would win. Daredevil's faster and more agile and has wacky spider senses (wait a minute that's some other guy, what's his name?) but Batman's stronger, more focussed and a better fighter. The comic indicated tha tBats would win and I don't see reason to disagree.

Vigil

[Pattern Ghost]

When was that one?

[Agent X]

I seem to remember a few comics where DD sat out the big fights in NYC because he recognized they were out of his league. Batman would be in the middle of it. Batman wins. But DD is too much of a hero (Man Without Fear) for him to go down as fast as so many seem to be voting.

[phydaux]

I remember that crossover. It started with Bullseye getting teleported out of the Marvel Uni and landing right in the middle of the Bat Cave. The Bat took one look at him, walked over and KO'ed him with one punch.

Horn Head has NEVER been able to KO Bullseye with just one sock.

BUT

As far as DD sitting out fights, The Hulk was on one of his anual NYC rampages and Daredevil tried his best to "distract" him with kicks to the head and Billy Club strikes to the nose and what not.

He ended up getting backhanded by ol' Mean Green about three times, with each swipe breaking ANOTHER rib or two. But he kept coming back. DD is no slouch, and has a lot of heart, but he's not in the same class as the Bat.

[Hermit]

Yeah, let's give the Devil his due, the man without fear maybe built on less points than some other heroes, but he's got his old man's heart when it comes to staying in the fight when things are on the line.


Best I can recall from the comic
Fixer: "They were rigged Jack, all of the fights were rigged. You're washed up, a loser. Stay down and accept it."

Jack "the Devil" Murdock: "That ain't true! And even if it is... you can go to hell!"

[Lord Liaden]

Batman and Daredevil have a lot in common beyond the "night stalker of crime" motif. They're both driven men, for very similar reasons. Their ethical codes are also quite similar. They've both trained themselves to be the best they can be. They've both been broken by their enemies, and pulled themselves back together. They are two indomitable heroes.

I think the main difference is that Matt Murdock was a grown man when the loss of his father gave him the drive and focus for his life; Bruce Wayne was nine years old, and started obsessive training not long thereafter. That is the edge he brings to any conflict.

My feeling is that in a straight-up fight Batman would win, but he'd have to work for it.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by phydaux
I remember that crossover. It started with Bullseye getting teleported out of the Marvel Uni and landing right in the middle of the Bat Cave. The Bat took one look at him, walked over and KO'ed him with one punch.

Horn Head has NEVER been able to KO Bullseye with just one sock.

Inter-universe crossovers like that should never be taken seriously as evidence in this kind of debate. Everything goes out the window in those things, and the usual comic-book writing fault of putting "entertaining story" ahead of consistency or continuity becomes a full-blown malignant cancer.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Inter-universe crossovers like that should never be taken seriously as evidence in this kind of debate. Everything goes out the window in those things, and the usual comic-book writing fault of putting "entertaining story" ahead of consistency or continuity becomes a full-blown malignant cancer.

The same can even be said for INTRA-universe crossovers.

I was a die hard Iron Man fan, still am to an extent. One time I remember Bruce Banner was helping Tony Stark do a little research and Bruce "Hulked Out" in the middle of Stark Enterprises Corporate HQ. Open goes the briefcase and on goes the armor and it's Iron Man to the rescue.

I even remember thinking "What the hell is Iron Man going to do? He can't handle The Hulk all by himself."

Well, a few panels later Iron Man one-punches The Hulk! One sock, and The Hulk is flat on his back and out cold. I felt robbed. I felt like the whole Marvel uni was tossed upside down.

I think that is when I really lost respect for comics. I mean, one of the things I like about Champs is the consistancy. One character swings a 8 DC attack at a SPD of 6 with a 10 CV & with 20 PD/ED, another swings 12 DC attacks at a SPD of 4 and CV of 8 with 30 PD/ED. It's that way every time, no surprises, no "Foxbat one-punches Defender, even though he's never been able to hurt him before in his life..."

I guess it's the same feeling I get when I go see a movie I've been waiting a long time for, and it stinks because the plot was dumbed down and the movie had explotions and car chases added for no reason.

The movie producers took the easy way out, catering to the least common denominator and counting on their audience to accept crap in the name of "suspention of disbelief." All they're really doing is showing the contempt they have for their audience by passing then shit and telling them it's chocolate cake.

If they respected their audience and respected their medium, we would get better product. But we vote with our dollars and get what we deserve.

The same with comics. We read issue after issue of campy plots, bad dialog, zero character development and continuity melt down every few years. But as long as we keep buying the crap, what incentive does Marvel or DC have to pass off anything better?

[end rant, for now...]

[Chuckg]

I agree with everyone who said that Daredevil has balls the size of basketballs.

In addition to that Hulk fight, does anyone else remember DD's first encounter with the Sub-Mariner? Namor *literally* beat Daredevil up and down the street across half of New York City, but Daredevil simply would not stop getting back up. Matt was literally dragging himself after Namor along the ground by his fingertips before Namor finally was so ashamed that he was beating on such a helpless yet valiant foe that he stopped his attack and left, out of respect for Daredevil's courage.

(And Batman would have to hit DD just about as long - or, more likely, taser him just so he could win the fight without having to maim the guy repeatedly .)

[Pattern Ghost]

Did Bats break any knuckles when he one-punched Bullseye? Or was this pre-adamantium skeleton Bullseye?

[Chuckg]

I'm not sure, but I think he palm-struck the point of Bullseye's chin.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Did Bats break any knuckles when he one-punched Bullseye? Or was this pre-adamantium skeleton Bullseye?

Geez, I guess in the Marvel uni you can get an adamantium skeleton at Wal-Mart.

[Vondy]

Bats took down Superman.

I see little issue with his taking down anyone, anywhere, anytime, insofar as he's aware of a potential conflict (if he's aware of you there is a potential conflict, even if he likes you...).

When it comes down to raw skill and tenacity in a mano-e-mano fist fight I would still hand it to Bats in the vast majority of cases. I see Daredevil as little competition, Matt's big brass one's (and the fact that I prefer middle-weights) aside.

Its a matter of what tier your sitting on (my icon is bigger than your icon!).

Batman is a Tier 1 hero, Daredevil is a Tier 2 hero.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Blue
Somewhere during the combat batman is going to figure out that daredevil is using senses other than sight to do the duel. At that point he's going to implement his bat gadgetry until something screws up Matt Murdock's ability to fight.

Even TV show Batman would pimp him on this alone...

"Quick Robin, Activate The Bat-Radar-Supressor!"

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by phydaux
The same can even be said for INTRA-universe crossovers.

I was a die hard Iron Man fan, still am to an extent. One time I remember Bruce Banner was helping Tony Stark do a little research and Bruce "Hulked Out" in the middle of Stark Enterprises Corporate HQ. Open goes the briefcase and on goes the armor and it's Iron Man to the rescue.

I even remember thinking "What the hell is Iron Man going to do? He can't handle The Hulk all by himself."

Well, a few panels later Iron Man one-punches The Hulk! One sock, and The Hulk is flat on his back and out cold. I felt robbed. I felt like the whole Marvel uni was tossed upside down.

(SNIP)

That may be a different Hulk/Iron Man bout than the one I'm thinking about, from the Michilinie/Layton era. Bruce Banner was at Stark International to receive a kind of "reverse pacemaker" to keep his heartbeat down so that he would never Hulk-out, but his body's own gamma radiation pushed it to drive his heart faster, becoming the Hulk with no chance of ever calming down enough to change back. Nothing Iron Man could do could stop Big Green, until he finally poured all his armor's reserve power into one overload-driven punch on a momentarily blinded Hulk. When the dust cleared Hulk was unconscious at the bottom of a huge crater... but Tony Stark had blown every circuit in his armor doing it, and was trapped inside his immobilised suit. The whole next issue was efforts to free Tony before he suffocated.

That to me was a credible victory at an appropriate cost.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by D-Man
Even TV show Batman would pimp him...

I would like the TV Batman to meet ANY other Batman and beat him to a bloody pulp.

"How DARE YOU try to be ME?"

Even Michael Keaton could kick his ass.

[Solomon]

I agree Matt would put up a good fight, but I really can't see Bats losing to DD. Even if they fought, say, in utter darkness, Devil would still be faced with a tought battle.

[Chuckg]

Not to mention that Bat's cowl now contains advanced nightvision and IR lenses as well... ah, the wonders of modern microcircuitry.

(Anybody remember the arc where King Snake showed up in Gotham? He tried a 'turn out the lights and use my Targeting Hearing to kick Batman's ass' scheme, and found out very painfully that thanks to the wonders of Foci, Batman can see in the dark.)

[Vondy]

Originally posted by phydaux
I would like the TV Batman to meet ANY other Batman and beat him to a bloody pulp.

"How DARE YOU try to be ME?"

Even Michael Keaton could kick his ass.

Even Michael Keaton could kick TV batman's ass, or even Michael Keaton could kick Daredevil's ass?

TV Batman has an advantage over the Dark Knight - Genre Convention and the COMICS CODE!!!

His primary super-powers are insane <i>camp factor</i> and <i>righteous indignation</i>. He's tougher than he looks: the Dark Knight couldn't walk away from a shark attack unharmed the way TV Batman could, and he has a linked flash attack with his punches, which always seem to be one shot take-downs (ZAM! POW! BIF!).

TV BATMAN (said with righteous indignation): YOU <i>FILTHY</i> VIGILANTE!
DARK KNIGHT: Me?
TV BATMAN: How <i>DARE</i> you besmirch the name of batman with your uncensored violence, dark moody storylines, and obsessive violation of the comics code!"

POW!!!

Queue spinning batman logo and scene change riff and move to seen where TV BATMAN shakes hands with Commissioner Gordon and Robin says something starting with "golly" about how good it is Batman has rendered Gotham city, and Comics in general, safe for children again...

"Yes, Robin, now young people can read our pages again with pride!"

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
That may be a different Hulk/Iron Man bout than the one I'm thinking about... he finally poured all his armor's reserve power into one overload-driven punch... Tony Stark had blown every circuit in his armor doing it, and was trapped inside his immobilised suit... The whole next issue was efforts to free Tony before he suffocated.

That to me was a credible victory at an appropriate cost.

That's exactly the story I was thinking of. If Iron Man could one-punch The Hulk ONE time, then he could do it EVERY time.


Originally posted by D-Man
Even Michael Keaton could kick TV batman's ass, or even Michael Keaton could kick Daredevil's ass?

I'd love to see the any other Batman kick the TV Batman's ass.

I always tell new players there are three comics universes:

One is like the TV Batman where heroes are always heroes and right is always right and the villains are always evil and stupid.

The next is like Batman: The Animated Series where heroes usually try to do what's right and even villains sometimes try to do what's right, but circumstances often prevail and sometimes they are both misunderstood.

Then there's the Batman the movie universe, where the only real differance between the heroes and the villains is the body count.

And I tell my players we can play in any universe they want, but it always ends up I'm running Batman: The Animated Series but they're playing Batman the movie.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by phydaux


And I tell my players we can play in any universe they want, but it always ends up I'm running Batman: The Animated Series but they're playing Batman the movie.

Funny, I have one player, no matter how dark and gritty the game is, who is trapped in the TV Show. So much so I had to have a sit down and mediate between him and the other players (who are trapped in the Movie).

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by phydaux
Geez, I guess in the Marvel uni you can get an adamantium skeleton at Wal-Mart.

Lessee. Wolverine, Bullseye, and Lady Deathstrike. And of course Ultron's shell. Hmm, seems more like a Neimus Marcus item to me. :D

So, did Bats break any knuckles?

[Rage]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Lessee. Wolverine, Bullseye, and Lady Deathstrike. And of course Ultron's shell. Hmm, seems more like a Neimus Marcus item to me. :D

So, did Bats break any knuckles?

Ummmm How many knuckles are in your palm?

And don't forget about that anti Wolverine guy who had poisonous adamantium hands, and Albert the Cyborg wolverine, and Doc Ock had adamantium Tenticles for a while I think.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Rage
Ummmm How many knuckles are in your palm?

And don't forget about that anti Wolverine guy who had poisonous adamantium hands, and Albert the Cyborg wolverine, and Doc Ock had adamantium Tenticles for a while I think.

Didn't see any mention of palm.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by phydaux
I remember that crossover. It started with Bullseye getting teleported out of the Marvel Uni and landing right in the middle of the Bat Cave. The Bat took one look at him, walked over and KO'ed him with one punch.

Horn Head has NEVER been able to KO Bullseye with just one sock.

BUT

As far as DD sitting out fights, The Hulk was on one of his anual NYC rampages and Daredevil tried his best to "distract" him with kicks to the head and Billy Club strikes to the nose and what not.

He ended up getting backhanded by ol' Mean Green about three times, with each swipe breaking ANOTHER rib or two. But he kept coming back. DD is no slouch, and has a lot of heart, but he's not in the same class as the Bat. Don't read too much into what I said. DD goes in to any fight where he thinks he can make a difference or if there is no one else around, no matter how bleak the scenario. A very early DD battle was his fight with Namor in NYC when the "big boys" weren't around to do it.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by D-Man
Funny, I have one player, no matter how dark and gritty the game is, who is trapped in the TV Show. So much so I had to have a sit down and mediate between him and the other players (who are trapped in the Movie).

well, provided that character has a multipower loaded up with Flash, AOE Flash, Entangle, NND & AVLD atacks and a good, high SPD, I'd say that's a recipe for a fun ol' time.

"STOP, evil doer! Your misdeads have caught up to you! Lay down your weapons!"

Villain draws his OAF AP RKA... "I'm gonna blow a hole in your head and then skull-fu... AHRG!"

4D6 AOE Flash (Strobe Light), followed by a 6D6 Entangle (Bolo) followed up with a 6D6 NND (Tazer).

"As I was saying, your felonious spree has ended, and the world is now a safer place for puppies and butterflies..."

EVERYONE would HATE the character, but it would be worth it just for the looks on the other players faces.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by phydaux

EVERYONE would HATE the character, but it would be worth it just for the looks on the other players faces.

They thought it was funny the <i>first time</i> after that... they got very agitated. I haven't run supers in a long time, but the eventual compromise was that I would run a derivative camp-fest game every so often that everyone would go cornball in, and he would shape up and not kill the mood in the main game.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hermit
I need to think on this one. Do the characters in this scenerio know each other? How well?

Daredevil has his superior senses to learn his terrain faster, and that gives him an initial edge if he presses. However, IF (And likely, given the Batman's deductive powers WHEN) Bats figures out the Daredevil's hypersenses are exploitable, it could stack things highly in Batman's favor.

This was my same concern, and I assumed that they don't know each other, a more typical cross-over scenario I'm guessing. So, merely for that reason, I gave it to Daredevil but just barely. I'm assuming that Batman won't realize exactly how Daredevil's senses work for this first encounter and therein will lie his undoing, especially as he counts on a combo of his own stealthiness (which I'm guessing won't work this one time) and sensory deprivation (ditto, although if he lets out a sonic drill then maybe a different story).

[Jeff T.]

Now, would MOVIE Daredevil beat MOVIE Batman?

DD seems physically superhuman sometimes in this case, he might take him.

Another plus is that he's blind, and wouldn't get caught staring at the bat-nipples or bat-butt.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by zornwil
This was my same concern, and I assumed that they don't know each other, a more typical cross-over scenario I'm guessing. So, merely for that reason, I gave it to Daredevil but just barely. I'm assuming that Batman won't realize exactly how Daredevil's senses work for this first encounter and therein will lie his undoing, especially as he counts on a combo of his own stealthiness (which I'm guessing won't work this one time) and sensory deprivation (ditto, although if he lets out a sonic drill then maybe a different story).

I had a similar thought, Batman often relies on stealth, and against Daredevil, well, that just doesn't work. It could backfire on Bats and give DD the initial advantage he would need to pull it off.

I mean, which of us hasn't wasted a phase on a useless manuever at least once ? :)

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Hermit
I had a similar thought, Batman often relies on stealth, and against Daredevil, well, that just doesn't work. It could backfire on Bats and give DD the initial advantage he would need to pull it off.

I mean, which of us hasn't wasted a phase on a useless manuever at least once ? :)

**raises hand**

Typically, my teammates will make up for it.

PS: I love that sig.

[drrushing]

I really like both characters. I don't see how Daredevil, without ambushing Batman, could EVER win this fight. Daredevil is very good, Batman is near Godlike when he's had the opportunity to prepare for a fight. Even in an ambush, if Batman doesn't go down fast, Daredevil would end up as chunks in Batman's guano.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hermit
I had a similar thought, Batman often relies on stealth, and against Daredevil, well, that just doesn't work. It could backfire on Bats and give DD the initial advantage he would need to pull it off.

I mean, which of us hasn't wasted a phase on a useless manuever at least once ? :)

Let he who has never wasted a phase on a useless maneuever...