Star Hero/Fantasy Hero

[Sytar]

I am a bit confused with the addition of all the listed Talents, Advantages, Limitations, etc. that are specific to these two systems. why are they showing up when I am creating a SuperHero?

I am sure that this is being covered elsewhere but I figured I would start a topic about it since I am betting that I am not the only one that has opinions about it.

How about this for an idea. When you select a template, that determins what powers, talents, advantages, limitations, etc. all show up. So if I say that I want to create a SuperHero, I don't have to keep checking the help for each piece that I am not sure that I have ever seen before.

[Simon]

All of those were added into the general template (i.e. available for all character types) per Steve Long. He felt that they were all important enough and valid for all character types.

There are some that are only available on the appropriate template. You'll find, for example, certain modifiers and abilities that only show up on the Vehicle template (most of them taken from TUV).

[topcapfan]

I like having them there and available.

Just my 2.5 cents.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Sytar
I am a bit confused with the addition of all the listed Talents, Advantages, Limitations, etc. that are specific to these two systems. why are they showing up when I am creating a SuperHero?

I am sure that this is being covered elsewhere but I figured I would start a topic about it since I am betting that I am not the only one that has opinions about it.

Er...all HERO Games mechanics are theoretically available for all characters. Its an open ended system after all.

Personally I very much like having all of the added content available in HD regardless of template and think that their inclusion in v2 is a major advantage over v1.

[Kristopher]

Consider this: in the Champions genre book, it also discussed Fantasy Champions and Galactic Champions. The inclusion of the FH and SH Talents and such makes creating Superheroic characters for those subgenres much easier.

[Monolith]

I do not mind that the additional Talents have been included. Heck, I'm usually the person complaining about wanting more things included, I just think it would have been less confusing if the Talents section listed the Talents from FREd, and then just had 2 sublists filled with the FH and SH Talents. When I look at the Talent list as it currently is it's almost impossible for me to find the FREd Talents I am looking for because of all the new ones.

[Fitz]

The thing that disturbs me about including all the Talents et.al. from the genre books in the base list is that it means that one has to have access to those books to find out what the hell they mean. The pop-up descriptions are helpful of course, but they don't (and shouldn't) be as explicit as the book descriptions.

Note that this is not really a HD issue, but rather an issue with Steve's decree that they're all core rules.

The whole idea of having a generic system like the HSR is that any genre can be played with Fred alone -- and of course that's true. However, including the new Talent descriptions in the core list makes it appear not to be so, which I think is a problem. It looks, at first glance, like a return to the bad old days when every Hero-based genre used slightly different rule mechanics, and even though that isn't so the first impression isn't a good one.

Having access to them in HD is a Good Thing, but I think it would be much better to put them in named sub-folders off the core list, to make it plain that they don't appear in the One and Only Core Rulebook.

[Sytar]

I guess part of the problem that I have with them is that none of my group has any of the Star or Fantasy Hero books. We play a SuperHero game, using the Champions Universe. The Talents and such that are listed are not listed anywhere in the main book Fred, and as such, I cannot look them up. The only reference that I have for them is the small Help description that is in the program.

I think that having them in there is great if you have access to the books are use them. Every power that we use is either in Fred, or you cannot use it.

How about adding an option in the Preferences to show Star Hero info, or Show Fantasy Hero info. Make them check boxes so you can have any of them or all of them.

[Simon]

There will be no option to exclude them other than making your own template and explicitly excluding them.

If you don't know how a particular ability works (in game) then don't use it. That's easy.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Fitz
The thing that disturbs me about including all the Talents et.al. from the genre books in the base list is that it means that one has to have access to those books to find out what the hell they mean. The pop-up descriptions are helpful of course, but they don't (and shouldn't) be as explicit as the book descriptions.

Note that this is not really a HD issue, but rather an issue with Steve's decree that they're all core rules.

The whole idea of having a generic system like the HSR is that any genre can be played with Fred alone -- and of course that's true. However, including the new Talent descriptions in the core list makes it appear not to be so, which I think is a problem. It looks, at first glance, like a return to the bad old days when every Hero-based genre used slightly different rule mechanics, and even though that isn't so the first impression isn't a good one.

Having access to them in HD is a Good Thing, but I think it would be much better to put them in named sub-folders off the core list, to make it plain that they don't appear in the One and Only Core Rulebook.
It is quite clear that they don't appear in FREd. Click on "Define" -- it lists the book and page reference for each ability.

There are no new rule-mechanics in use....it's simply a matter of Steve realizing that there is a need for certain new abilities/Modifiers/rules as he goes through each specific genre-book. The Ultimate Skill is going to contain a ton of new additions, for example....simply because he's going to have spent several months working solely on that subset of the rules.

[Sytar]

Can you please let me know how to exclude them? I have looked in the StandardHero.hdt and I see all the normal Fred talents, but I don't see the others.

Don't take this the wrong way Simon, but making this large of a change on the RC is probably not a good idea. I understand that Steve thought that it should be in here, and he may be right, but adding it so late in the process has never been good for my programming or validation testing. Honestly if there isn't an easy way to take them out, once it is released I will probably go back to using v1.

[Simon]

This change wasn't made on the RC, it was made on v2. It's been in place for most of the v2 testing.

Steve wanted those abilities in (they were among the only explicit requests he had for v2) and so they go in. They're an extremely good thing, IMO.

StandardSuper.hdt is a v1 template.

The v2 templates can be found by either opening up the "update.jar" file in WinZip (or the equivalent) or by going to the HDv2 section of the Free Stuff pages. They have a very different structure from the v1 templates. You can either go through them and see how things work (it's the "REMOVE" syntax that you'll be looking for....pretty easy) or you can wait for the final release of v2, which will contain the updated documentation.

[Simon]

Another note here, just because this irks me a bit:

If having these abilties in pisses you off so much, DO NOT BUY V2. Period. You won't be happy with it.

If, however, you would like to have a nearly completely re-vamped app, with a ton of new features, new functionality, more intelligence, etc.....then buy v2 and learn to use the abilities that you know the rules for. It's not terribly difficult to say "gee....I'm not familiar with that ability...(check the definition for a reference)....and I don't have the book that the definition references....I probably shouldn't buy it."

[Sytar]

This is what I didn't want.. Simon, I think that this program is awsome. I started working on something like it myself a long time ago and realized just how large of a job it was. I am impressed with every aspect of this program from the listing and calculation of powers, to the output (which I will also add is a great point being able to customize it).

When I am working on making a character I felt that I knew the talents and such pretty well, but when this list came out (which may have been added a while back as I did most of my real character editing on v1) I find myself continually pulling out the Fred to see if what it does.

If there is some way, even if it means editing a template, to get rid of the Star and Fantasy stuff, I will probably buy v2. I think that there are a lot of additions to HD that makes it great either way.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Simon
If having these abilties in pisses you off so much, DO NOT BUY V2. Period. You won't be happy with it.
It's comments like this that make us all love you so much Dan. I'm already iffy about buying v2, and saying things like this do not inspire me to buy the upgrade.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Simon
It is quite clear that they don't appear in FREd. Click on "Define" -- it lists the book and page reference for each ability.

The point I'm trying to make is that while the ability to find out from HD where the full descriptions are is useful, having to go through a separate interface stage (clicking Define) simply to find out that they really don't appear in Fred and that one hasn't just overlooked them isn't good design from a usability perspective. A basic tenet of UI design is that as far as possible it should be self-explanatory, and hopefully should make the structure of the contents self-explanatory.


There are no new rule-mechanics in use....it's simply a matter of Steve realizing that there is a need for certain new abilities/Modifiers/rules as he goes through each specific genre-book. The Ultimate Skill is going to contain a ton of new additions, for example....simply because he's going to have spent several months working solely on that subset of the rules.

I am aware that there are no new rules mechanics involved, as I said before. I see no problem with adding new definitions for things as new material evolves; in fact that's a good thing. Where I do see a problem is in marketing Fred as the one-book-is-all-you-need system and then making no immediate distinction in tools like HD between core rules and expansions of those core mechanics.

In any case, as I said before this isn't really an HD-specific issue, so this is probably the wrong forum to be carrying on a discussion about something which is basically a marketing and design philosophy issue.

[Sytar]

I also wanted to add a quick point, that we are here as users letting you and Steve know what we like and don't like as well as what is broken and what works. From my experiance with Beta testing any opinion that you give weather it is that you like it or not, should be taken into consideration.

I tried my best to give constructive critisum and to give some ideas on a way to keep all the data and info in there, but to make it more to the liking of some of us users.

I have done programming for years, and I have found that when someone approches me with a problem, it is much nicer to have them give me an idea of what they think a solution should be, then just 'its broke, fix it' And I take that same consideration with others. I have never said that I don't like the HD, I said that I think this should be an option. That is all.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith
It's comments like this that make us all love you so much Dan. I'm already iffy about buying v2, and saying things like this do not inspire me to buy the upgrade.
Then don't buy it.

You've had the ability to use v2 for some time now. If that hasn't convinced you to purchase the upgrade, then don't purchase it.

You should purchase HDv2 (upgrade or full) because you like the program and find it useful. If you don't, then don't buy it.

It's not a difficult decision.

There will be things that people ask for which I will work into the app (many things). There will also be things that people ask for which I will not work into the app. This would be one of them.

You have the ability to remove the new Talents, Modifiers and Skills from the app by creating a custom template. I've made the creation of custom templates easier than ever before (with template inheritance). It is up to you to decide whether this is enough for you.....I have stated (several times now) that this will not be changed.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Sytar
I also wanted to add a quick point, that we are here as users letting you and Steve know what we like and don't like as well as what is broken and what works. From my experiance with Beta testing any opinion that you give weather it is that you like it or not, should be taken into consideration.

I tried my best to give constructive critisum and to give some ideas on a way to keep all the data and info in there, but to make it more to the liking of some of us users.

I have done programming for years, and I have found that when someone approches me with a problem, it is much nicer to have them give me an idea of what they think a solution should be, then just 'its broke, fix it' And I take that same consideration with others. I have never said that I don't like the HD, I said that I think this should be an option. That is all.
And I do appreciate that.

But you need to appreciate that there will be some things that are suggested that simply will not be implemented. Even if for as simple a reason as "it doesn't fit with the architect's ideas for the app".

The point was made (it was actually made before this thread, with the same response). I have thought about and decided against it. I have stated that it will not happen.

It is now time to leave it be.

There are ways to remove the abilities from the templates. Fairly easily, considering your programming background -- you should find it to be a breeze.

The format for removing items from a template is simply to use a REMOVE container within the appropriate section, inserting the XMLID of the ability that you want to remove as the contents of the container. Examples can be found in Vehicle.hdt (the v2 version of it) as well as many of the other genre-specific templates. These templates will also show you how to inherit definitions from another template, which you will definitely want to take advantage of.

[Simon]

One last note on this: If you decide to edit the template and need any help (or get confused on any aspect of it), just let me know. I am perfectly happy to help out with stuff like that.

[Kristopher]

V2 is better than V1. I'm quite happy with the improvement so far.

(Keep in mind who is saying this.)

[Kristopher]

I'd rather have the SH and FH Talents in the program and not need them, then need them and not have them. Of all the things to complain about (and you know I can find things to complain about, if you've been paying attention), this is pointless. You won't need to buy an upgrade pack if you start playing a sci-fi or fantasy game, or even a Champions game in one of those settings.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I back Dan 100% on this. 3 months ago people were begging for stuff from the genre books to be in HD. Now that they are in v2, people are complaining about that.

Just cant please everybody all of the time.

Better that they are there and not used than just not available at all. If you dont recognize it, then dont use it. Just house rule it to your players as "it aint available unless one of you sucks wants to go buy me the genre book its in". Or words to that effect.