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I'm almost certain I've come across a conversion for Torg using the Hero System but I'm coming up with a big goose egg in my search -- both on these boards and the net in general.
Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks (or "Thnaks" as I more commonly spell it...)
I remember Torg.
Torg was an absolute mess. Moreso even than RIFTS. At least RIFTS was cool as a setting even though its mechanics were #&@%'d. Torg was so haphazard as to be nearly unplayable. I do however remember a few interesting ideas hidden in there that would make good campaign fodder...
Coincidentally, this same question/ request was recently posted on RPGnet. Was that you by any chance, Del?
Unfortunately I have to give you the same response that I gave over there: I've been searching the Internet myself, both via Google and through all the Hero websites I know of which list links to other sites. So far I got nothin'. :(
It's possible that some such conversions did exist at one time, but have since been taken down by their creators. I've run into a few "dead links" of that sort in recent years.
Nope, it wasn't me, LL. I think I ran across that post on RPGNet myself. In my web wanderings, I've found an initial (and possibly aborted) attempt to do a D20 version of Torg. I vaguely recall seeing something on the web a few years back in which the Hero System was used as the game mechanics. I'll have to check my old back-ups to see if I saved a copy.
NSG, I was never overly thrilled with the Torg mechanics, though I did think the setting was worth salvaging. I may be slightly biased, though. My initial experiences with Torg were with Greg Gorden acting as GM. It probably helped a tremendous amount that the guy running the game was one of the game's creators. :)
I have to say that Torg is probably my second favorite game out there. For the most part, the work is already done for you; you can find magic and equipment scattered throughout the Hero books. The problem is going to be the things you say you disliked from the original game: the mechanics.
The first thing you would have to consider is how to handle disconnecting and the Cosm Axioms. In Torg the Reality Skill is used for 1) Reconnecting 2) Fighting other characters with Reality Storms 3) Resisting Reality Storms 4) Deactivating Stelae. This means you will need to develop a Reality based Skill and Power in the Hero version. The Reality Skill will be needed for reconnecting, whereas the Reality Power will need to be some kind of Transform - person of one reality to a person of a different reality.
You also need to think about if you want to bring over rules such as the Drama Deck, World Laws, Possibility Points (and using them to effect game rolls).
If you are still looking for ideas, we can bounce a few back and forth.
By the mechanics, I was thinking more of the need to roll the d20 to generate a total that would give you a bonus that would then be applied to the base ability... seems like a long way to travel to get to the final result. My main complaint (if it could be called that) was that the basic mechanic seemed to make things needlessly muddy. Could just be my inherent laziness. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Mobius
Reality Skill
This doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to implement -- perhaps make it EGO-based. I think the hardest part would be determining how difficult it would be to do things like reconnect, since the axioms can vary so wildly. The other applications (reality storms, etc.) seem more like an opposed test. The actual consequence of failure in the case of Storms would be the transformation. I don't know that an actual power would need to be worked up for that.
The Drama Deck
Well... that seemed like a mixed bag to me. There were some nice things about it, but I was never really keen on "approved actions." I have to admit, though, they were pretty good for sparking the cinematic bits in an encounter -- especially when the players had to come up with an "in game" rationale for being able to use their cards to help another player.
World Laws
I think you'd almost have to use these if you wanted to maintain the flavor of the game.
Possibilities
I suspect this would be the most difficult to implement. One could go with one of the variant mechanics for "Luck" but since Possibilities were also used for character improvement, that wouldn't quite get it done. I suppose one could set it up so that XPs could be spent in the same way as the Possibilities in Torg, but it might be necessary to tweak the XP awards for a given adventure. :think:
If you (or anyone else) have any ideas to toss out, I'd love to hear 'em. :)
I feel the conversion of Torg to HERO would actually be quite simple. All you need to do is take HERO as is, modify one or two mechanics and add in rules for the new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delthrien
The Reality Skill perhaps features as one of the main new mechanics. I can think of two options. A more literal translation makes it a skill, with special rules. A slightly more flexible translation treats it as a power: more flexible because this gives you much more scope in terms of the range of reconnection difficulty numbers. I'd probably go with the skill though!
Difficulty reconnections currently range from 3 to 25 in Torg. In probability terms for an average starting character (say, skill +stat = 11) this ranges from 90% chance of success to virtually zero chance of success. Assuming similarly that an average starting Torg HERO character will have 11-, and 90% chance is 14- gives the following rough conversion:
Torg
Reconnection DN...HERO Skill penalty
3-5...+3
6-8...+2
9......+1
10....+0
11-12..-1
13.......-2
14-15..-3
16-17..-4
18-19..-5
20-21..-6
22-23..-7
24-25..-8
[Edit: this table is based on comparing probabilities of achieving results on 3d6 bellcurve against probabilities for Torg, as calculated by Kansas Jim, Torg Guru: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~jogle/TORG/]
You would probably want to redraw the Reality Storm Table to fit, but opposed rolls would definitely be order of the day. Of course, because the TORG bonus value chart is essentially designed to convert a linear d20 roll into a bell curve, it actually fits HERO Skill - Skill pretty well and might not need much alteration.
Interesting view, because for many people this is the real innovation that Torg brought along. Personally I love it. Conversion is easy.Quote:
The Drama Deck
Well... that seemed like a mixed bag to me. There were some nice things about it, but I was never really keen on "approved actions." I have to admit,
Approved actions: These are only relevant to the meta-game of card play, so if you keep cards you can keep approved actions. In theory. The difficulty being the greater prevalence Torg puts on interpersonal skills as combat interactions: trick, test of wills, intimidate and maneuver. Personally I think this can still be done: substitute Intimidate and Test for Presence Attack; substitute Maneuver for any Agility skill; Trick could be substituted for any Intellect skill. Give NPC a situational penalty for the next action for success if the skill use itself doesnt provide some advantage, but gaining a card is the main reward.
Initiative: You could give a bonus of +5 Dex only for purposes of determining order of actions to whoever is marked as coming first on the initiative line, or you could ignore it. The special actions on the initiative line could be ignored also, or interpreted as follows:
- Inspiration: Gain free post-12 recovery
- Flurry: gain additional half-phase action (or full phase, but in context of HERO that could be unbalancing)
- Fatigue: Takes 2 STUN damage
- Stymied: -1 on all Skills and -1 to every damage die
- Up: +1 on Skill Rolls and +1 to every damage die
- Confused: Keeps original meaning - players cant play cards into card pool
- Break: Keeps original meaning - villains flee if they dont hit PCs in their next action
Dramatic Skill resolution: Again, can function as was, with following modifications:
- Complication: if action fails, add 1 to difficulty
- Critical Problem: keep original meaning - if action fails, have to complete task with different skill
- Last ditch effort: increase difficulty by 2, plus 1 for each step attempted.
Card meanings: Mostly can be interpreted fairly straightforwardly. Treat a +3 as perhaps +1 to Skill Values and/or +1 to Damage dice.
I think you should try to pretty much bring possibilities over as complete. So, 1 possibility can:Quote:
Possibilities
I suspect this would be the most difficult to implement. One could go with one of the variant mechanics for "Luck" but since Possibilities were also used for character improvement, that wouldn't quite get it done. I suppose one could set it up so that XPs could be spent in the same way as the Possibilities in Torg, but it might be necessary to tweak the XP awards for a given adventure. :think:
- add 2 to a skill roll and, if applicable, every damage die.
- achieve 3 effects out of: Remove 2 BOD from attack, Remove 5 STUN from attack
- create reality bubble - effect as per Torg
I would then create a ratio of possibilities to XP. Should be fairly straightforward. Standard award for HERO is 2-3XP, Standard award for Torg is probably 8-10. Call it 4 P-points = 1 xp and you'd be in the right ball park.
Something else you might like to consider is the fact that p-rateds (e.g. PCs) can achieve extraordinary actions even without spending p-points because they get to roll again on a 20, which norms dont. Could interpret that as maybe:
- On 5-, subtract 2 from roll. Roll 3d6 again, subtracting 2 and rolling again everytime you roll under 5.
- As above, but when you roll 5 or 16 (prob my favourite, as it spreads the odds a bit)
- As above, but when you roll double 2s [edit: or any other designated double for that matter!]
You could complicate it further so that, for example, if you took the 5/16 option, you'd subtract 1 if you rolled a 5 and 3 if you rolled a 16, which perhaps better reflects the greater influence of roll-agains in Torg on bad rolls than on good rolls. (actually, they have the greatest effect on mid-range rolls - perhaps rolling double-2s is the way to go?).
Well, I think that will do for now. I'm guessing it's too late for a confession. HERO system is just a childhood love with whom I now enjoy the occasional fling. However, I've been happily married to Torg for 13 years. How ashamed do I now feel?....:tsk:
Phil
First, no apologies for the long post -- that's awsome! I may be able to make use of that in the near future. We're about to start up a small group here (found out both one of my co-workers as well as my next door neighbor are gamers) and we're trying to decide on both a system and a setting we can all enjoy. :)
Second... well... If ya want, I'll keep your, er, relationship(s) under my hat. ;)
I really can't add anything to the excellent post by Phil, but...
Don't forget that Possibility Points can also negate knockdown effects and KO effects.
As for Reality vs. Reality Skill during a Reality Storm, the winner each round would strip a certain number of PP from the loser. I don't have the chart here at work, but I would say (off the top of my head) each point of success in Hero would read straight off the chart from Torg. Once a person losses all of their PP, he would start losing levels in his Reality Skill until he was down to zero and transformed.
...you did, so you are an evil, lying super-genius arch villain of the Nile Empire!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Mobius
But I had. Depends whether the game would have knockback or knockdown (i'd drop knockback personally, Torg is more heroic than superheroic), in which case the list of damage effects that p-points can ignore should readQuote:
Don't forget that Possibility Points can also negate knockdown effects and KO effects.
- 2 BOD, 5 Stun, Knockdown or Stun
In the context of the HERO system that may sound quite powerful. It is. In the context of Torg, spending a possibility can turn fatal trauma into a flesh wound. In fact, given that 4 Wounds in Torg is equivalent to 0 BOD in HERO, it might even be 3 BOD rather than 2. YMMV depending on the number of points you allow PCs to be built on. 125 point PCs can afford a few points to boost their BOD, so use 2 BOD per p-point; 50 point PCs should be given the breaks, so use 3 BOD per p-point.
Phil
If there's sufficient interest, I'd even consider doing a full and thorough article on converting TORG to HERO. Although it'll be ready in 2008 - I've got a long list of projects that are in a permanent state of 'nearly finished'!
There *is* interest. I'm the original poster over on RPG.net (Ascending Crane). I was thinking of just putting my collection of Hero books and Torg books (all!) in a room and hoping that 'something' would happen, but alas. Nothing did. However, Phil has in one post taken a crack at a large portion of what needs to be converted. And a darn good crack it is, too.
Rather than just you doing this, Phil - what about the rest of us? Is anyone else interested in putting together a little unofficial project here? Doc Mobius (oh, I KNOW you'd be up for it with a name like that)? Delthrien?
Imagine! Starting templates for the various realms that are *balanced*.
Imagine! No more glass ninja problem.
Imagine! Putting stats to Hachi Mara-Two, Kurst, and the other NPC's we probably all know and love.
Think about it folks, we could divide up the work and have it done in no time (ahem, with what Phil has already done!).
I was wondering how far you wanted to simulate the gameplay of TORG?
The damage results give Ks and Os (essentially the same as STUN) whereas damage values count towards killing (or BODY)
I was wondering whether all characters should have the same STUN which would be removed due to K and O results and K + O would render any character unconcious.
That does leave the issue of REC...
I'm sure there are other gameplay issues that could be simulated using the toolkit. I'm convinced that TORG could be replicated using HERO but there will have to be some consideration made as to what is converted as it stands and what is converted in spirit.
I don't think there's a need to try and simulate the K's and O's. A mechanic like that is there purely for guaging pc/npc mortality; we already have stun and body.
Part of a game's attraction is the gamerplay. HERO is able to be set to provide any number of gameplay experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King
If there is no desire to have K and O results then that's fine but I think that it removes some of the cinematic nature of the TORG system. In TORG all characters have pretty much the same propensity to KOs but that is not true of HERO.
There are any number of variables in HERO that could probably be set in TORG Hero. Of course, I am a complete TORG novice, I just love looking at novel ways of presenting the HERO system.
The difference between losing consciousness from Shock damage and losing consciousness from KOs is the largely capricious randomness of KOs! And, as Dr D says, the fact that they happen irrespective of characteristics.
STUN clearly replicates Shock directly, and as such I see no particular need to have a fixed value of Stun. Introducing KOs would need a new mechanic and, in order to repliate the propensity of KOs in Torg, would need to be absent at very low damage, Ks and Os spread equally around in the medium range, and KOs present together at high end.
[for those who dont know, Torg has a damage mechanic where you get Wounds and Shock damage, like BOD and STUN. In addition you get awarded Ks and Os which individually do nothing, but as soon as you have one of each, you're unconscious for at least 1 minute]
Personally I wouldnt replicate this mechanic, for 2 reasons: I'm not sure it's fundamental for a Hero-Torg conversion to cover every mechanic, and secondly, and more pragmatically, because it's likely to be dropped from the forthcoming 2nd edition!
However if you did, I'm guessing what you need is:
- mechanics based on damage taken, not damage inflicted
- two separate mechanics that at low levels of damage dont occur together but at high levels of damage they do
- at least one KO effect should occur on all but the very lowest damage totals.
Those are pretty challenging parameters IMHO. Perhaps we should just live by the KISS principle:
STUN dmge 2,4,6,8 = K
STUN dmg 3,5,7,9 = 0
STUN dmg 10+ = KO
If you were considering using KOs, then I would definitely scale up the effect of Possibilities to 3 BOD and 6 STUN, otherwise fights are going to be over pretty quickly.
Phil
Oooh, dont get me started on that old chestnut!Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King
The main thing I'd like to check is the exact ratio of +1 in Torg to HERO, so that we can ensure things like drama deck and possibilities have similar effects for both systems.
Then, it's usually a simple matter of discarding half of the tables (interaction, value/measure chart, damage table) and converting the others.
Other thoughts:
variable cosm limits: Torg 13 = HERO 20. Well, not exact, but let's assume that. Torg operates on 5 points = x10, so a cosm limit of 14 is 58% better. So, for HERO, let's make that 23. Roughly :)
powers, cyberware, etc. = the chief benefit of moving to hero is getting better regularity of special abilities. Plus, no adventure cost - yay! Dont convert these, use Hero. It's what it's best at.
Miracles: replicated with HERO powers, with various side effects and lims.
- skill roll
- side effects (failure of skill roll means that miracle cant be used again for 24 hours or until purified)
- gestures, incantations etc. as relevant
Implementing separate Faith and Focus skills would be hard but not impossible. How about this? Use a general EGO skill roll, plus:
- Faith Skill Levels - add to the success chance of skill roll (penalty based on active points of power, as per fairly common magic limitation)
- Focus Skill Levels - add to effect, as per converting CSLs to damage
So no 'miracle' skill as such, just two types of skill levels. Make sense?
Magic: More difficult, in part because of metaphysical arguments that still rage as to whether the magic presented in the Aysle Sourcebook IS Magic and everything else is an exception to that rule, or whether there is no one system.
However, you could do as little or as much conversion as you want - such is the beauty of HERO!
The main spell system can have different skills creating the same effect: you can Apport a fire to make a fireball, you can Alter a small flame to become a fireball or you can just conjure a fireball from scratch. Each is progressively more powerful (apport moves fire, alter makes the fire move and makes it bigger and explosive, conjure has no limits) but progressively more difficult to use. One neat solution is simply to rely on a single magic skill with penalties based on *real* points value AS WELL AS active point value: so a spell with the limitation of 'must have existing flame' is easier than one without. The details of such a system would take some working, but it would be time rather than effort that is called for. You could then replicate the different types of magic skills again, as per miracles, as limited Skill Levels. Wish I'd bought the Ultimate Mystic now, as I'm sure there'd be good advice in there that could be valuable as well.
[arcane knowledges are only really important for spell design. you could drop them entirely without suffering major loss. Technically, all Torg mages not only know spells but have access to a large VPP, the amount of which they can access depends entirely on their skill and the time they put. Gaining a new 'power' is not down to experience so much as time. Given that casting-on-the-fly in Torg is virtually impossible for all but the most skilled mages, however, I think you can safely ignore it. Moderately skilled mages are able to design their own spells in down-time however, or learn new spells from grimoires at the price of just 1 p-point. If you treat the game as Heroic and treat spells as tools, like guns or armour, then this isnt a problem.]
Occult magic is wish magic, which makes it in HERO terms a variable power pool. What's unique about it though is that the Cosm itself provides the power for it, not the character, meaning occult mages dont carry around a personal 100point VPP: anyone with the occult skill can access it. It's something of a handwave magic system and, as such, I'd suggest directly translating the existing rules rather than converting it to a personal power.
Nile Empire magic is a fairly simple variant of Ayslish magic, so whatever system is derived for that could work across both.
Psionics similarly is a fairly simple conversion, like the magic system but a whole lot simpler.
Anyway, I have a job to do! Perhaps I'll mull this some more and post later...
I'd forgotten shock. The KO is something similar to STUNNED in Hero except that it lasts longer. I suppose what you need is an expanded mechanic for STUNNED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Yeah - KO probably isn't needed but it would introduce an element of randomness that Hero lacks in its basic form - an element that I know you would welcome. Perhaps this isn't the place for it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Doc
Phil: Out of curiosity, would you be inclined to leave the axiom ratings as they are or would you tweak them a bit for Hero?
My own inclination is to leave them alone (the less work the better) but if tweaking them would make a better fit, I wouldn't mind...
Given that axioms have little impact on day-to-day play, I wouldnt bother.
If you're playing the game to the letter, where axioms come in is modifying disconnection difficulties. Because it's been necessary to tweak disconnection difficulties to fit the 3d6 bellcurve, it would probably be necessary to adjust them slightly as well. However, my experience from Torg mailing lists is that many Torg GMs dont use this.
Main use is in 4-case contradictions, when PC uses a tool that is above his personal axioms AND above axioms of the land, such as an Elf using an M16 in Living Land. There the difficulty of reconnecting would be increased by:
[Elf Tech axiom = 16, M15 Tech axiom = 22, Living Land Tech axiom = 7]
22-16=6, 22-7=15. Total penalty=22.
4-case contradictions will often make a difficult reconnection impossible, which is why they're often ignored.
Other use is in 1-case contradictions, but only when PC uses a tool that exceeds their axioms but NOT those of the land. Then there is a bonus equal to that difference. This rule is used even less often than the one above.
But, in short, you're right. If you use these rules, you need to convert them, either by extending the DN conversion chart up to around 40, or by converting the axioms.
Side note: Torg has no automatic success or automatic failure. Do you therefore drop this element of HERO system, or keep it?
Phil
I don't think the Axiom Charts need to be changed, but we would need a table that would convert the Torg penalty to the appropriate HERO penalty. Since I have none of the books with me at work (the only one I have here is Transdimensional TMNT; weird) I would have to think about this topic later.
Since you are converting Torg into a different system, I would say use the rules of the new system for automatic success/failure.
So to recap some:
instead of a re-roll on 10 or 20 (Torg style) we have a re-roll on 6 or 15 (Hero style) depending on if you are skilled and/or P-Rated.
A 1 Case Contradiction will occur 5% of the time in WEG Torg, so we have a roll of 16-18 on 3d6 in HERO Torg (gives a 4.68% I think).
A 4 Case Contradiction will occur 20% of the time in WEG Torg, so we have a roll of either 14-18 (gives like a 17%) or 13-18 (gives about a 25%). I would go for the 14+ roll personally.
Wow. I just read theWhat is Torg? text file, and I have to say, that sounds amazingly unwieldy. I mean, Rifts was Fantasy meets Science Fiction. This adds in Pulp, Cyberpunk and Superheroic Genres, not to mention the Stone Age. Wow...
Amazingly unwieldly? Not at all. Essentially, Torg was just a generic system with a relatively simply game mechanic bolted on to limit the ability of characters to wield spells, miracles, psi and high tech all at the same time. Having said, like so many game systems, the basics were simple, the devil was in the details. And boy, is there some detail!
BTW, had some further thoughts on Torg magic. I wasnt entirely comfortable with the thought that spells were just tools for a Heroic game, like guns or armour. Then I thought some more about arcane knowledges (AK):
- every spell is linked to one main AK, whether Fire, Living Forces, Time or whatever (there are 22 in total)
- you can only have one spell of any given AK active at the same time
- your Magic Skill + AK skill directly limits what spells you can learn. The more powerful spells are almost always going to be harder to learn.
Know what this says to me? It says multipower. Each AK is a separate multipower, and the power of the spells you can deliver is obviously then going to be limited by your AK (i.e. by the size of the multipower). You can also usually only have one power active at a time - if the multipower pool is large, then you'd just add a custom limitation to enforce it.
Raises more questions of Possibility Points to XP conversion though, as a new spell can be learned for just 1 PP from a grimoire, or designed from scratch for free (given a few months of downtime). For the purposes of Torg HERO I'd be inclined to make Characteristics more expensive to increase, and Powers cheaper to increase - the main way characters develop in Torg is through the addition of new abilities like magic, psionics, cyberware and better skills.
Sounds like a way to go. I'm wondering, though. Would you be including Arcane Knowledges as skills in Hero or merely replacing them with the Multipowers? Was there ever a use (in Torg) for the Arcane Knowledge skills beyond casting spells? (I plead failing memory :o)
If so, it might be an interesting bit to allow the multipower to represent an ArcKnow skill (<i>Abbreviated this way to avoid confusion with Hero's Area Knowledge</i>) with the roll being based on the points in the MP reserve, perhaps something along the lines of the first 5 or 10 points representing a familiarity, with each additional 5 points representing a +1 to the roll. Or something...
I wouldn't call it Arcane Knowledge though, because AK is generally associated with Area Knowledge.
Well the one active spell at a time indicates that the multipower reserve is small - it can only power one slot at a time and all the slots are ultras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I'd be more inclined to make the spells require an ArK skill roll modified by active points - thus you might know a difficult spell but couldn't cast it til your ArK was good enough.
Well. It's less of an issue in a heroic game - items and spells are often 'given out' in Fantasy Hero. You could acquire spells in TORG Hero the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Not sure that's necessary is it? The basic mechanics of TORG make cgharacteristics immensely useful - they default as any number of skills - in HERO they wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Doc
Agreed, I was going to suggest using Requires Activation Roll for the magic, you could use the Power skill as each of the magic disciplines.
In fact here is a version of my TORG character that I created when I first got HERO, it's very rough but works.
<font size=+1><b>Tarquin Smythe III</b></font>
Player:
<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><font size=2><b>Val </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Char </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Cost</b></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>11 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STR</b></font></td><td><font size=2>1</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>14 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>DEX</b></font></td><td><font size=2>12</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>CON</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>BODY</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>20 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>INT</b></font></td><td><font size=2>10</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>13 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>EGO</b></font></td><td><font size=2>6</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PRE</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>12 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>COM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>1</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>ED</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>3 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SPD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>6</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>4 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>REC</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>20 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>END</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>21 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>14" </font></td><td><font size=2><b>RUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>4</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2" </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SWIM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2" </font></td><td><font size=2><b>LEAP</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr></table><b>Characteristics Cost:</b> 40
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5 </td><td><b><i>Quick As A Dash: </i></b>Running +6" (14" total) (12 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (Requires a Magic skill Roll; -1/2), IAF (Sneakers; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">17 </td><td><b><i>Take 2 Of These And Call Me In The Morning: </i></b>Healing BODY 4d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (Requires a Magic Skill Roll; -1/2), Others Only (-1/2), IAF (Stethoscope; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">12 </td><td><b><i>Do You See What I See: </i></b>Clairsentience (Sight Group), x4 Range (500"), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (37 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (Requires a Magic skill roll; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), IAF (Spectacles; -1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 34
<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost </b></td><td><b>Skill</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Acting 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>CK: New York City (INT-based) 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Climbing 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Computer Programming 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Concealment 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Conversation 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Deduction 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Forensic Medicine 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Paramedics 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Persuasion 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5 </td><td>Power: Magic (INT-based) 14- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4 </td><td>PS: Doctor (INT-based) 14- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4 </td><td>SS: Biology (INT-based) 14- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4 </td><td>SS: Chemistry (INT-based) 14- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4 </td><td>SS: Medicine (INT-based) 14- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4 </td><td>SS: Physics (INT-based) 14- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Shadowing 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Stealth 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2 </td><td>TF: Common Motorized Ground Vehicles </td></tr></table><b>Skills Cost: </b>36
<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost </b></td><td><b>Perk</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5 </td><td>Money: Well Off </td></tr></table><b>Perks Cost:</b> 5
<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost </b></td><td><b>Talent</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5 </td><td>Eidetic Memory </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Lightning Calculator </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">6 </td><td>Speed Reading (x100) </td></tr></table><b>Talents Cost:</b> 14
<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Val </b></td><td><b>Disadvantages</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Hippocratic Oath (Uncommon, Total) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20 </td><td>Hunted: Winged Demon 11- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Social Limitation: Dabbler in Magic (Frequently, Major) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Claustrophobia (Uncommon, Total) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10 </td><td>Enraged: The Strong Praying On The Weak (Uncommon), go 11-, recover 14- </td></tr></table>
<b>Disadvantage Points:</b> 75
<br>
<b>Base Points:</b> 75
<b>Experience Required:</b> 0
<b>Total Experience Available:</b> 0
<b>Experience Unspent:</b> 0
<b>Total Character Cost:</b> 129
<br>
<table width="100%" valign="top"><tr valign="top"><td><b>Height: </b>1.78 m</td><td><b>Hair: </b>Ginger</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td><b>Weight: </b>76.00 kg</td><td><b>Eyes: </b>Brown</td></tr><tr valign="top"><span style="font-family: Arial Narrow; font-weight: 700"><td colspan=2><b>Appearance: </b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2><b>Personality: </b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2><b>Quote:</b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2><b>Background: </b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2><b>Powers/Tactics: </b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2><b>Campaign Use: </b></td></tr></table>
Cheers
Shem
Drama deck:
here's a Hero interpretation of the masterbook's deck from an old game I ran..:
Card Play
Each game session a character starts with 3 cards. Leftover cards go back into the deck at the end of every game.
The Hand vs. The Pool
The card "hand" and the card "pool" are mentioned several times. It is a major part of the Masterbook Card system, and is explained here in terms of use in the HERO Wounded Lion campaign. It encourages action during combat turns, plus dynamic interaction between players.
Non-dramatic Rounds
Whenever player characters are not in dramatic rounds (usually phase-by-phase combat), the cards are in the player's hand. The cards can be played at any time simply by throwing them into the discard pile and applying their bonuses or effects. Any number of cards may be played in this manner, as long as only one card is applied to any given action or effect. For example, an action card is played on the casting roll of a healing spell and an effect card is played on the amount of damage.
When a great length of time passes in game, such as a weeks time while traveling from one city to another in which not a lot of action happens, cards may be traded between players on a one-for-one basis only. No player may give or receive a card without receiving or giving an equal number of cards.
Dramatic Rounds
Most of the time, characters are "out" of dramatic rounds during an adventure. A dramatic round is any time period where something very important to the adventure is happening - or, at least, something very intense. Whenever fighting breaks out in an adventure, the characters are automatically "in" rounds. Sometimes, the gamemaster will put the characters "in" dramatic rounds when the tension of the adventure has grown to a peak, or when something time-critical is happening.
Once the action of the adventure enters a dramatic round sequence - always during combat, but sometimes during tense interaction or critical skill resolution as well - the players can isolate one card out of the hand into a "pool". This happens before any actions on the first seg. 12. of the first turn. (i.e. before anybody does anything). At this point, players cannot play any of their cards until they have been put into the player's card pool.
How this works is simple. When the action first enters dramatic rounds, a player may place one card face up into his pool (on the table in front of him). At this point, all the players and the gamemaster can see the card. When a character has a phase come up, he has the choice of either playing a card from his pool or adding another card from his hand to his pool. Only after the player has placed the card into his pool, can he then use it on an action. Some cards will allow character's to play out of phase, when that happens the use of the card counts as the character's next card phase. (kind of like aborting….).
Use of leadership or rally cards, and how they affect play during dramatic rounds, are discussed in other areas of the text. During dramatic rounds, there is no limit to the number of cards a player may have in his hand or pool.
Playing for the Critical Moment
This is an exception to the "in dramatic rounds" hand vs. pool rule. During a crisis situation while in dramatic rounds, a player may announce he is "playing for the critical moment" and play all his cards in that phase. He must discard any cards he does not want to play - at the end of the round, the player has no more cards.
When a character plays for a critical moment, he can only obtain new cards through the use of the leadership and rally cards. In addition, a character may play for only one critical moment per game session.
The Card Deck
Enhancement Cards
Enhancement cards follow the normal “hand” and “pool” rules of card play. Enhancement cards offer bonuses to a character’s action or hinder those of an opponent.
Action Cards
By playing an action card, the player can add +1 to all skills and Attribute rolls for that phase (second of action in combat). This includes Attribute rolls, Activation rolls, Skill rolls, Combat Levels, etc.
Outside of combat, the action card can only be used to modify one action, or all the actions that are part of a multi-action (such as a coordinated action amongst multiple characters).
Adrenaline Cards
These cards add +3 to any single Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Body, attack or physical skill. May also be played for 3 extra dice of effect for Strength rolls. When playing the card, the player must state which Attribute or skill roll he wishes to affect.
Breakthrough
Using the breakthrough card, the player can add +3 to any single skill roll that the character has at either No Skill (6 or less), or Familiarity (8 or less).
Claim
The player who throws the claim card may take the top card on the Action card discard pile in exchange for this one. The top card then goes into the player's hand. No card may be claimed more than once.
Double Cross
A character that wishes to betray his party or one of his party members may play the double cross card to add +6 to any one action. The action should be taken to the detriment of another player character, and the player using the card must state what single value he wishes to affect when he plays the card.
Unlike other cards, the double cross card does not have to be played into the pool during combat – it can be played directly from the player's hand at any time.
Drama
This card maybe spent to duplicate the effects of 2 successes with the Luck advantage. A character with luck may roll thier luck and add extra successes to the 2 given with the card.
Effect
This card can be played to add a 10 point Aid to any one ability or power. The effect in question must be declared upon throwing the card. The card must be played before the results of the action have been interpreted.
Haste
Play this card on a phase that you do not have an action. You act on that phase. You do not get a card action on that phase, and playing the Haste card counts as the card action from your next legitimate phase.
Hero
When this card can be played, the character may choose from any one of the following effects for that round.
1. Turn a critical failure into a normal failure. The card may be played after the dice are rolled.
2. Turn a critical hit against the character into a normal hit.
3. Use a single ability at no End. Cost.
4. Gain a damage bonus of +1 DC, that may exceed weapon caps.
5. 4 Penalty Skill Levels that may be divided as the player wishes against any applicable penalties.
6. Gain +3 DCV against a single attack.
7. 2d6 Simplified Healing.
Idea
When a player throws this card, he may ask a somewhat specific question of the GM regarding the development of the storyline, and the gamemaster should provide related hints that help the players move the plot along. The GM has sole judgement over what hints are appropriate. The hints should be acquired in some way through the storyline, like previously unmentioned contacts, or a relation to the story previously unexplored.
Leadership
By using leadership, the player who throws this card may play up to two cards (total) into one or two other players' pools and/or draw two cards into his hand from the Action Deck. These cards can be given from the character's hand, his pool, or a combination of both.
To play the leadership card you have to be leading in some way, either by blatantly giving orders, or helping another in a mentor like capacity; also they have to be following your orders, or at least attempting to heed your wishes. The cards are handed over after the person being “led” begins to act in a “led” fashion, not when leadership is offered.
Opponent Fails
After an opponent or enemy has completed an action against the cardholder's character, this card may be played to cancel the effects entirely. The action then fails, and play continues. This card may not be played to cancel an action that is not directed at least partially at the cardholder. The gamemaster has sole judgement over when this card can be played and how it works into the story
Presence
These cards add +3 to any single social skill or reaction roll (including animal handling), or 3d6 to a presence attack. When playing the card, the player must state which skill or Attribute he wishes to affect. The card can only modify one number value per play.
Rally
When a character plays the rally card, all players (including the one who played the card) may draw one card each into their pools.
Rally has a strict roleplaying aspect that must be adhered to, to play this card you have to be doing something to organize, direct, incite, or boost morale to your comrades, and they have to respond to your efforts (at least as a majority).
Example: Using this card after a dramatic or heroic action or after issuing an inspiring speech. The card could also be play by a character on the round following an appropriate (GM’s discretion) use of the hero card or even by another character in the same round if they can follow up the action in an appropriate manner. Regrouping after a rough combat is also an effective use of the card.
Second Chance
Playing this card allows the character to re-roll a die roll of any kind. Skill, Combat, Damage, Hit Loc, Presence, Luck, whatever…
Seize Initiative
By playing this card, the player may immediately interrupt the normal initiative order and act earlier in a dramatic round then normal. This card may be played at anytime before the character’s normal initiative, in a phase that he acts. The character’s place in the initiative will be moved to be the first character in the current order for the duration of the conflict. If the card is played after the first person in the initiative order has acted, the character immediatley acts (even interrupting another action), then reverts to the first place in subsequent phases.
Outside of combat this card allows a free phase of activity that can only be used for movement related actions.
Supporter
To play the supporter card, the character must be trying to help someone else - but no action need be attempted or used in this support. This card may be played at any time by another character, but counts as his next card action (using a card or playing one to his pool).
The "help" should be described in roleplaying terms as the card is being thrown, the “help” must also be helpful; shouting a helpful suggestion isn’t supporting if the advice is ignored, bad advice, or isn’t providing any real help (i.e. yelling “duck” when someone is already ducking or obviously intends to duck isn’t a great boon). It adds an automatic +3 to any one of other character's actions during the same round – but must be thrown as the other character is performing the action.
Example: Yelling “swing low, he has problems defending his legs” if the opponent in question has been hit low before, for the +3 to attack. Declaring that you jostle the opponent during an attack could be worth the bonus to hit or to the ally’s defense, provided you’re in a position to do so.
Willpower
These cards add +3 to any single Intelligence, Ego, Perception, or mental skill roll. When playing the card, the player must state which Attribute or skill total he wishes to affect. May also be played for 3 extra dice of effect for Ego rolls. The card can only modify one number value per play.
Subplot Cards
Sub plot cards do not have to be played to a character’s pool to be used. Most subplot cards are played face up when they are drawn. The gamemaster may claim the card at anytime to activate it or the player may suggest a use to the GM. The campaign and martyr cards are exceptions to this and may be played directly from the player’s hand
Alertness
When this card is placed face up in front of a player's character, that person has a special "sixth sense" outside of all other rules and roleplaying situations that will help him to spot a previously unseen item, character, or clue selected by the gamemaster. It is normally used to allow a character to spot something he missed before or something that is important to the adventure.
Campaign
This card can be used to make another subplot permanent. The subplot must be one that could be made permanent – such as nemesis, romance, or personal stake (not alertness) – and the use of the card must be approved by the gamemaster. The "permanency" of the subplot is only as long as the gamemaster decides it is fun – or until the player character takes steps toward ending it.
Unlike other subplot cards, the campaign card can be held in the player's hand until an appropriate subplot comes up. It does count as a card in the character's hand until it is played, and the gamemaster may reject the permanent subplot. When used in this manner, the character receives another card.
Common Ground
When a character has this subplot in effect, the gamemaster uses it to establish a common relationship between that character and an otherwise alien or strange person, environment, or culture.
Connection
Played face up, this card means that, sometime during the adventure, the gamemaster will introduce a gamemaster character (or characters) that will help the player character in some way.
Martyr
A "last-ditch effort' card. When played the character sacrifices his life to perform some gamemaster-designated (and usually heroic/normally impossible) action.
The martyr card should be used selectively. It means killing off a character in a high profile, exciting way. The player shouldn't do it if he doesn't want to, and the gamemaster should let the player know if there is likely to be some heroic/exciting way the character can die.
Unlike other subplot cards, the martyr card can be held in the player's hand until an appropriate action comes up.
Mistaken Identity
According to this subplot, either the character becomes convinced that someone he meets is someone else (intentionally or unintentionally) or the character is mistaken for another person. At the end of an adventure, the character may be awarded bonus character points (if the subplot is played in an interesting manner).
Nemesis
Someone the character meets during the adventure (or interacts with, or who is hanging around) has or develops a grudge against the character - of dangerous intensity. At the end of the adventure, the character may be awarded bonus character points (if the subplot is played in an interesting manner).
Personal Stake
This makes a mission, situation, or occurrence much more personal for the character. Somehow, possibly through the characters background, or even through situations arising at the moment, the character has more riding on the adventure than anybody else does. If the player roleplays this personal stake, acting in accordance to the situation, the character may be awarded bonus character points at the end of the adventure, depending on how well he does.
Romance
The character attracts a romantic interest and must roleplay the situation. This does not mean the character has to "fall in love" – love might not even be the issue. But, there must be roleplaying involved in the acceptance, rejection, or combination of the two. If the player roleplays the situation, at the end of the adventure, the character may receive bonus character points – depending on whether the gamemaster feels the player roleplayed adequately.
Suspicion
The character that plays this subplot card will be "under a cloud of suspicion" sometime during the adventure. Some gamemaster character, or characters, will suspect that the character is not who he seems. If the player roleplays the situation, at the end of the adventure, the character may receive bonus character points – depending on whether the gamemaster feels the player roleplayed adequately.
Picture Cards
Also known as the jokers, the picture cards are special cards that can be used in several ways. When a character is dealt a particular picture card, it has the results described below.
The 'Wild' Card
When a character gets the wild card, he can look use the card as any card in the deck except another picture card. In addition, the character does not have to decide what card the wild card will be until he needs it.
The 'Interloper' Card
When a character is given this card, it must be played face up as if it were a subplot (red) card. Sometime during the adventure (hopefully soon, but the timing is up to the gamemaster), a "third party" should show up. The third party might show up to help the player characters, the gamemaster characters, or to pursue their own interests. When they show up, the card is discarded, and they act normally.
The Disaster Card
When a character draws this card, something really bad happens – not necessarily to the character, but in general. If this card comes up outside of combat or in a situation where it is unlikely something bad would happen, then the player should put it in front of him and draw another card (as if it were a subplot card). When the gamemaster can work the disaster in, the card is discarded and something bad happens.
The "Opportunity" Card
This card is somewhat the reverse of the disaster card. When it is drawn, the player puts the card into his hand and works it into his pool as if it were an enhancement card. When the player wants, and when the card pool rules allow, he can throw the card and receive an opportunity. The best description is that the card is a thematic cross between an idea card and a breakthrough card. The bounds of the opportunity should be up to the gamemaster, but the actual execution depends on the player and the character.
The General Cards
These cards are considered "setting specific." For Wounded Lion campaign, they have the following specific meanings. The “Cube” card is the Past card. The “Spiral” card is the Spirit World card. These cards are played like any other Subplot Card.
•Past Card: This card represents some aspect of the past (either from the character’s background or from events that have developed during play) that has returned to haunt him. Enemies begin to plot against him, old loves return seeking his help, or subplots made permanent with the campaign card flare up again. The events may not come into play immediately, but the gamemaster should start to work in connections to the character’s past over the next few game sessions.
•Spirit World Card: Crazy shit of a magical bent.
Two purposes for Arcane Knowledges were:Quote:
Originally Posted by Delthrien
- minimum threshold to learn spells (e.g. Fireball Alt/Fire 16 requires Alteration Magic skill + arcane knowledge fire = 16 or greater to learn)
- significant role in spell design
However, Arcane knowledge has no role in the actual casting, so as such, treating each Arcane Knowledge as nothing more than a multipower pool seems simple enough.
Had another thought. If you want to use the cards and were worried about flurry results etc screwing up the speed chart etc, why not fix spd at 2 - then the cards would simply be adding an attack. Initiative would be based on the cards too. Keeps things simpler.
Just coz HERO allows SPD differentials doesn't mean you have to use them...
I'd probably limit SPD to 4 (since it is a heroic setting) unless there's some reason (say in the Nile Empire) that you would want a 6 or better speed. The Atomic Top could RULE in Nile Empire with a 6 speed! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Doc Democracy
True. Cutting out Speed altogether and getting rid of the Speed Chart wouldn't be too bad, unless you were running a speedster of some kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Democracy
Jak
I think, if you were using the cards that it wouldn't make much difference. Speed variations would be through powers or the cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by JakSpade
even then. the speedster could get some advantages - not necessarily extra moves per turn...Quote:
Originally Posted by JakSpade
I think there's two ways to go (as usual!). The first is to try and accurately recreate Torg mechanics, the second is to recreate the essence of Torg but using HERO for the core.
The latter is easiest. Use SPD as written. The initiative line is one of the weakest aspects of Torg IMHO.
As an alternative, i'd been thinking similarly about limiting spd. However, what I'd do is give three speed levels which reflects the variability of the Torg initiative lines:
- 'Mooks', non-possibility rateds etc.: SPD 2
- P-rateds: SPD 3
- Major baddies (i.e. 'Dramatic' conflicts): SPD 4
Phil
There's more than two ways to go Phil, this is HERO. :)
Anyway. I think you are looking to create as much of the look and feel as possible without feeling constrained by bad mechanics.
If you want to use the cards then you do need to limit speed - that has nothing to do with initiative though. I think the cards are pretty integral to TORG - though not the background. The cards are how the game tries to inject cinematic and HERO is not the most cinematic of systems so the cards should stay for look and feel reasons. The cards assume the same number of actions per round thus SPD should probably be static.
I'd be tempted keep the speeds at 2-4 (as suggested) but largely ignore DEX order on the speed chart and just use the cards to govern who goes first in a given phase. Perhaps use one initiative draw for a turn (or perhaps every 6 segments in dramatic encounters).
I may have to throw a group together REAL soon and try some of this stuff out. :)