FH and Knockback

[Greatwyrm]

FH says that Knockback is an optional rule that usually isn't used in a fantasy setting. Then, there are several creatures, both in FH and the playtest of MMM, that have varying degrees of Knockback Resistance.

What do you do with those creatures? It seems like wasting points, buying a defense against something you'll never encounter. Do you subtract those points? Does it instead translate into some kind of Knockdown defense? If you only allow some spells and abilities to be purchased with Does Knockback, do you give a price break on Knockback Resistance, since you won't see it that often?

Thanks for any help.

[Monolith]

For many creatures it makes sense that they would have KB Resistance just to represent their incredible mass. Also keep in mind that some SFX do make sense to have knockback. A charging bull, for example, would do knockback to the characters even if their sword blows would not do it to the bull. It would also make sense that blows from a giant's club would also do some knockback. So I would keep the KBR on the characters to represent those facts, and to also come into play when the PCs witness a charging bull going after a giant.

[Ben Seeman]

Also bear in mind that these aren't players that are seeming to throw away their points. These are just monsters and their character point cost isn't really all that important.

[keithcurtis]

Ben, your avatar exhausts me just by looking at it.

Keith "Take a break; you're making us look bad" Curtis

PS. Couldn't the KBR be used to prevent knockdown?

[Greatwyrm]

OK, so Knockback isn't used for all attacks in FH, just when dramatically appropriate (e.g. charging bull). That makes a little more sense to me then.

Although that does leave the question of whether Knockback Resistance helps any against being knocked down.

[AnotherSkip]

I generally would use that to help resist Knockdown, after all it makes a good way to simulate some genre conventions (esp EarthDawn Conversions.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
OK, so Knockback isn't used for all attacks in FH

The problem with sentences like that is that there is no 1 cohesive "Fantasy HERO" where blanket statements like that can be applied. Fantasy HERO is just a genre; you can express your implementation of Fantasy with the HERO System using any combination of rules and options from the HERO System.

In this case, ergo you can have KB in a campaign that is played with the HERO System and is set in a "Fantasy" millieu.


By default heroic games dont use KB, and most Fantasy games are considered to be heroic, but they dont have to be.

Vice versa, some of the creatures in the Bestiary have things like "No Hit Locations", which isnt meaninful in a campaign that doesnt use Hit Locations but the points are spent anyway. Similarly, some creatures have an extra cost listed if NCM is enforced on them. Not relevant in some campaigns but there nonetheless.

When you look at things like that you need to know what rules are in affect in your campaign, and then switch out, exclude, or refactor creatures to suit. Theres not really a standard set of ground rules usable, so things like that are going to crop up.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
FH says that Knockback is an optional rule that usually isn't used in a fantasy setting. Then, there are several creatures, both in FH and the playtest of MMM, that have varying degrees of Knockback Resistance.

What do you do with those creatures? It seems like wasting points, buying a defense against something you'll never encounter. Do you subtract those points? Does it instead translate into some kind of Knockdown defense? If you only allow some spells and abilities to be purchased with Does Knockback, do you give a price break on Knockback Resistance, since you won't see it that often?

Thanks for any help.

I use knockback for giants and I might for ogres. On the average, a character might experience 1" of knockback from a giant, and none from an ogre. This reflects their massive strength and mass compared to "punny humans and funny elves."

I also used knockback in the original Giant Series in AD&D. It just "felt right" and spiced things up.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
OK, so Knockback isn't used for all attacks in FH, just when dramatically appropriate (e.g. charging bull).

I see no problem with this sentence.

In all the FH games and with all the GMs I've played in or with (don't ask me to count ), none used knockback, except for maybe a force attack or something similar.

So I guess the norm would be, no KB. Some people have a problem with norming, Don't worry Greatwyrm, it's normal to want to fit in.

[Markdoc]

While most GM's don't use KNB, for FH I do, just in a toned down version (I simply add an extra dice to all attacks, so you roll 3d6 for normal atacks, 4d6 for killing).

That has the effect of reducing (or all but eliminating) much KNB from human-sized attacks, while still allowing a huge giant to swat attackers halfway down the street with appropriate extra damage.

I do this primarily for dramatic effect - it adds something to the game (for me at least) when players are fighting on a high narrow bridge and they are acutely aware that a solid wallop can send them over the edge. It's not *totally* unrealistic either: at both SCA meets and martial arts fights I have seen people slammed right off their feet and at least a couple of meters backwards. A 7 metre giant with a treetrunk could do much better than that. The unrealistic part, of course, is that any recipient who recieved a blow capable of sending them 10 metres down the street is likley to be a floppy mass of meat at the end. But then fantasy in general tends to be fairly forgiving of physical injury

So I don't mind those creatures with KNBR: if it bugs you just drop the points from their total, or (my preferred approach) use it against knockdown.

cheers, Mark

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Galadorn
So I guess the norm would be, no KB. Some people have a problem with norming, Don't worry Greatwyrm, it's normal to want to fit in.

It's not really that so much as I've never run or, IIRC, even played in a HERO game. I'm trying to get some ideas together for a game down the road and just want to draw on the experience of those assembled here.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
It's not really that so much as I've never run or, IIRC, even played in a HERO game. I'm trying to get some ideas together for a game down the road and just want to draw on the experience of those assembled here.

Ah. In that case.....you may already realize this, but the main thing about the HERO System is that it is configurable. All systems are to some extent, but the HERO System is designed to be INTENTIONALLY configurable. Its intended that a GM will opt to do certain things and opt not to do certain other things based upon the game that they want to run. Skim thru the book and count how many times "GM's option" or "at the GM's discretion" appears The HERO System is also notoriously house ruled, which the rules tacitly accept and bend over backwards to accomodate.

Thus no two groups play exactly the same game, and further might have different sets of rules in place for various genre. Frex, if I run a gritty Demon Hunter: FBI game with a 70s-funk street crime flavor, I'm using all the Injury rules, hit locations, and pretty much all of the heroic-level combat manuevers, plus house rules for handling Demon Possession and Exorcisms. The game feels completely differently than a High Fantasy HERO Campaign using the superheroic rules options (Knockdown, END Cost, generalized damage) and fewer optional combat manuevers.

Because of this variability in the rules, the "Ultimate" books (and the Bestiary basically is the "Ultimate Creature" book), which are written to be fairly comprehensive and multi-genre, are going to have some grey areas where you have to understand that if your particular game set up isnt using certain rules, youll need to refactor the content provided a little.

However you decide to proceed, Good Luck!

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Thus no two groups play exactly the same game, and further might have different sets of rules in place for various genre.

Which is something I thought was really cool about the HERO system. I'm just hesitant to start pressing buttons and flipping switches without having a good idea of what's going to turn off and on.

[mudpyr8]

We do 2 things w/ KB.

1st, races: it costs no points, but for -1" KB, you take +1" falling damage, and -1" Leap.

Conversely, for +1" KB, you take -1" falling damage, and +1 Leap. This should be a SFX for mass, and the physical limitation associated with it.

It's cool 'cause it works in the effect of mass in falling and leaping without altering STR directly. It's an extension of the mass factor option in leaping, but seems balanced by the KB aspect without having to pay points for it.

2nd, KB in combat. We used an enhanced knockdown rule. If you take more than half BODY before armor, you are knocked back 1" if you fail a DEX roll. If you take more than BODY, you fall down as well.

How does racial KB factor into this? The attacker's racial KB modifier adds to the amount of KB, and yours subtracts from it.

So an Ogre (-1 KB) hits a Halfling (+1 KB) for more than half the halfing's BODY. He therefore suffers 2" of KB automatically, +1 " if he fails a DEX roll.

If you want slightly more realistic KB, just make each 1" of KB = 1m instead of 2m.

This is dramatic, fun, but not overwhelming (characters flying 6m with every hit).

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
It's not really that so much as I've never run or, IIRC, even played in a HERO game. I'm trying to get some ideas together for a game down the road and just want to draw on the experience of those assembled here.

Yeah and the relativists and post-modernists want to give you a hard time, I understand. To tell you the truth, the best cure, I think, in hero games for a solution is to experiment. Let your players you know are experimenting, and see how things work out with Kickback.

If you don't let the players know you are experimenting, they might assume that KB is a permanent rule in your game and start buying powers, so they might get that extra 5-8d6 that KB might add to an attack. I would suggest you give them fair warning.

Another idea that came to me, is to limit KB - say maximum 1" KB per attack (-1/4 or -1/2 disadvantage, probably -1/2). This is just to let players know that they are being hit by massive or incredibly strong monsters/characters.