Is Hero Fantasy for me?

[Sly]

Hello everyone,

This will be my first post to these boards so I will give a little background. I am a hardcore Hackmaster player, but that doesn't mean I don't play or have intrest in other games. Sitting on my shelf next to my Hackmaster books are my Ars Magica, L5R (old school), 7th Sea, and Riddle of Steel books. Of course my 1st edition AD&D books have a place of honor along with my collection of Dark Sun material.

I read about Hero Fantasy at RPG.net, but I thought I would come right to the soure and get your opinion here. Is Hero the right system for me? I have never played any of the previous editions, about the closest thing I have played is GURPS (I am guessing). I know HERO is not level based, but I am looking for a good compare/contrast with AD&D/Hackmaster. I searched through all the articles already, but couldn't find anything specific.

Thanks for your opinions.

[Bartman]

Its hard to say without knowing your style and preferences. I would suggest you try to find a Demo or Convention game and play at least one scenario using the Hero system. The basic rules carry from genre to genre just like d20 does. So if you play any Hero game you wil pick up the basics.

In all it is not too different from most systems. Task resolution is decided by rolling 3d6 under a target number. And combat is a "roll to hit then roll damage" affair. But where Hero really shines is in character and campaign creation. You can literally create any type of character you want. No classes. No levels. No "you must have this to get that." You can create the exact characters you want for your campaigns. And the system is exceptionally well balanced. 5pts of one ability really does equal 5pts of annother ability. This is unlike most systems where there is one feat, talent, or skill that everyone picks up because it is greatly more useful than the others.

However the learning curve can be quite steep. It is kind of the opposite of D&D. In D&D you can learn the basic rules and start playing a just a few minutes. But everything is an exception. Every spell acts differently and the GM and players are required to keep learning the system as they go. Hero instead presents everything up front. But once the system is understood there are a lot fewer exceptions and suprises.

[Bartman]

On review I don't think I actually answered your question. Let me try this again. You seem to be a least somewhat familiar with GURPS. You will notice that they do have a number of similarities.

When starting a FH campaign the GM will need to decide the power level. The GM will assign a number of starting points for the characters to be built with. In addition to these poitn the players can add more points by taking a number of 'disadvantages.' These can be anything: personality traits, phsyical ailments, social issues (like being an outlaw), enemies, rivals, etc. In general there will also be a cap in how many disads a character can take.

The most common power levels for play in FH are:
25 pts + up to 25 pts of disads. Which roughly equals about 1st level in D&D.
50 pts + up to 50 pts of disads. Which roughly equals about 5th level in D&D.
75 pts + up to 75 pts of disads. Which roughly equals about 10th level in D&D. This is probably the most common starting level for FH.
There are other levels and each GM can decide this for themselves. For other genres different starting values are used. For example supers generally start at 200+150.

Experience is rewarded for accomplishing a task or completing a scenario/storyline. Extra experience is awarded for good roleplaying and characterization. Generally this amounts to about 2-3 pts per session. So most characters will earn an equivalent to a level every five sessions or so.

Both starting points and experience can be spent on anything the player wishes. There is no restriction based on class, race, or level, unless the GM decides to impose one. The GM could for example could decide that only elves can cast healing spells. But the system doesn't force that on the GM. So within GM guidelines you could create a character that matches any of the standard fantasy archetypes (thief, fighter, ranger, barbarian, mage, etc) or create a character that combines whichever characteristics you like best of each. You could have a mage who can swing a sword with the best of them but is lousy with a staff. Or you could have a warrior who is an excellent pickpocket. Or even a barbarian who can communicate easily with animals. The only limit is the player's imagination and the number of points he has to spend.

Once playing Hero tends toward the cinematic style of gameplay instead of the 'realistic.' In general the system is fairly forgiving and player death and dismemberment tends to be low. However there are an number of optional rules which allow a far less forgiving campaign, if that is what you want. Combat is measured in turns. And each character is allowed a number of actions based on the character's Speed (a basic characteristic like Strength or Dex). Combat is detailed and has multiple options. So there isn't the kind of repetiveness tht some systems have. Instead of swing longsword - swing longsword - swing longsword - swing longsword - swing longsword, you instead get somthing like sweep longsword at the two orcs on my right - block attack from ogre - full attack on ogre - dive out of the way of shaman's fireball - charge shaman.

Historically the one problem with the system has been that there has been very little support material for FH. That looks like that will no longer be the case. In addition to the excellent Fantasy Hero book itself, Hero has published an excellent 300 odd page book of premade spells. And the primary setting is due to come out shortly.

And in case no one has mentioned it, you will need the 5th Edition Hero ruleset. This contains the character creation and play rules. Fantasy Hero only contains genre specific information.

Hope this helps.

[slaughterj]

This PDF provides some basic info about the Hero system, which may help: http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.n...cs/HRO_int.pdf

What it comes down to is, what do you want from your RPG system? Do you want it to be easy but not as flexible, then go with d20/D&D. If you are willing to put in extra effort for greater flexibility, then Hero might be for you.

[Alcamtar]

Like AD&D/HM, Hero does powergaming very well. In some ways, it is a better D&D than D&D is.

Like AD&D/HM, Hero is "old school" and doesn't have the latest mechanics, believing that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However it was one of the first universal systems, so it doesn't have baroque mechanics either. But it does have a few gray hairs.

Like AD&D/HM, Hero is highly tactical; combat is designed for a battle mat, things are measured in "inches", facing and position are important, and so forth. And there is a good bit of resource management -- ammo, spell points, fatigue, and so forth.

Like AD&D/HM, Hero characters are very durable. They don't have a lot of hit points, but you can beat them to a pulp without killing them.

Like AD&D/HM, Hero revels in 'power', be it magic or whatever. If you like powerful magic or varied magic, Hero does it very well indeed. A lot of point-based games do not allow you to wield the kind of raw earth-shattering power that Hero does. Hero also lets you design your own magic systems, and most fantasy hero campaigns feature multiple systems.

Like AD&D/HM, Hero allows characters to be anything from a rank novice to a virtual demigod, capable of taking on armies.

Unlike AD&D/HM, Hero lets you be pretty much anything you want. There are no fixed character classes or spells or anything. In D&D, you have to get the GM to give you special permission (and invent the rules necessary) to do something weird or unusual. In Hero, you can do that by default, and the GM is probably more interested in reigning in your flights of fancy.

Unlike AD&D/HM, combat usually takes a bit longer in Hero, but it can be much more detailed. Instead of having ten encounters in a playing session, you're more likely to have two or three; that generally means you cut out the random/meaningless encounters and go straight for the important ones. The upside is that combats (IMO) are much more satisfying -- they have detail and depth, andyou can tweak just about every aspect of your character. It is also easy for a GM to challenge characters in very specific ways.

Unlike AD&D/HM, Hero characters are more complex. It takes longer to whip up a major bad buy or custom monster, and the stat block is longer. But also unlike AD&D/HM, there are no specific requirements -- NPCs don't have to be point balanced, which means the GM can invent anything he wants without concern as to whether this violates a race/class combination, or why the wizard can't wear armor, or whatever.

Hero can take more preparation work for the GM, but with books like Fantasy Hero, Bestiary, and Grimoire, it is possible to run a game "out of the book" and even off-the-cuff, with random encounters and the whole bit.

Unlike AD&D/HM, Hero is not intrinsically balanced. It is balanced within a particular range of ability, but does not prevent you from stepping outside that range. In D&D terms, character classes are balanced with each other; it does not offer an invisible flying race with AC -5 at first level. In Hero, the "standard classes" would also be point-balanced without the normal range, but it does not prevent the invisible flying character. The GM must exercise discretion in what limits he sets, and what he allows.

The good thing about balance is that since the GM controls it directly, it can be very finely tailored to the campaign. You won't have the problem where a high level wizard outshines the warriors unless you allow it (and warriors will have *many* ways to stay competitive too). You *can* allow an invisible flying race if you want, and Hero gives you the tools to make it balanced; it won't do it for you, but it gives you everything you need.

Unlike AD&D/HM, there are no absolute effects in Hero. There is not 100% protection, no attacks that automatically hit, no attacks that automatically kill, no saving throws. This is probably the biggest fundamental difference.

Unlike AD&D/HM, Hero doesn't feature "pick from the list" character creation. If your players are uncreative, they're going to draw a blank and then come up with really uninspired characters... or they'll try to reproduce a D&D stereotype. (The Fantasy Hero book can go a long way to fix this). OTOH if they're creative, Hero will have tbem bursting will great ideas and they'll build fabulously original characters, with nothing more than the core rulebook.

FWIW, lots of people "play D&D" in Hero. All the monsters, spells, items, and character classes are easily stolen and used as inspiration. Lots of people even play in campaign worlds published for D&D.

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

Hey, another Floridian. Cool.

To answer your question, maybe.

The bigger question would be "Is Fantasy HERO for me and my play group. In my experience in any decent sized group of players at least one player will be interested in the HERO System but the trick is in enticing the entire group (or at least a majority) to try it.

If you arent currently in a group, then I recommend you find a good HEROs group somewhere and go play with them at least a few times.


The beauty of the HERO System is its flexibility and power, its down side is its complexity. On the bright side the HERO System is based on a handful of consistent "meta-rules" rather than a collection of seperate mechanics like you find in most other game systems, so once you start learning the game you can guess pretty accurately how certain things you havent gotten to will work because the game is pretty internally consistent.


When you say you want to play Fantasy HERO however, I feel I must point out that there is no 1 "Fantasy HERO"; you wouldnt use the phrase in the same way you would say "D&D" or "Ars Magica", which implies certain constants such as how the Magic System works, relative power levels, etc. The idea behind the HERO System in general is that rather than say "heres how this works", it says "heres how to define how you want it to work". Thus to play "Fantasy HERO" you must first define how things work in your campaign; this entails designing a Magic System, deciding how Magic Items are to be handled, deciding on whether character can have fantastic abilities or if they are limited to a more-or-less normal range of abilities, determining how you want to handle damamge (gritty Hit Location based, with a number of Injury and Impairment options, or generalized damage or something in between), overall powerlevel of characters, and a host of other small decisions.

Once you've done that, you are ready to actually play your version of Fantasy HERO. If you are a gear head and like to make your own decisions rather than have them made for you, then the HERO System is the Holy Grail of games. If youre more easy going and like having your game systems pre-packaged with all the decision making done for you then the HERO System is probably not for you, for use with the Fantasy Genre or otherwise.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Alcamtar
FWIW, lots of people "play D&D" in Hero. All the monsters, spells, items, and character classes are easily stolen and used as inspiration. Lots of people even play in campaign worlds published for D&D.

This is correct.

I ran and played in various "GreyHERO" Campaigns for 4 years chronologically/about 3 years of actual play. It was some of the most enjoyable gaming Ive ever done, and all the characters and campaigns are fondly & oft-remembered by the various players that participated in them.

I did a AD&D 2nd Edition -> HERO System Conversion back then which worked pretty well, and have recently revised that material into to a more general Fantasy HERO Resource, with conversion documents provided for both AD&D and D&D 3e. You can check it out at www.killershrike.com ; it might be of interest to you Sly.

[Sly]

Thanks for the responses guys. I like the concept of HERO, but what I was afraid of was the D20 syndrome. When 3rd edition came out I played it, but something was missing from it. It took all the classes and gave them the same xp chart, tried to balance them, and so on. If my opinion, that was the wrong thing for D&D. Not all are created equal.

So you mentioned that all powers balance with other powers of the same level, but not in the way 3rd edition feats "balance" with each other. So at a beginning level, say the 75 point build, is a character who specializes in combat on equal footing with a spell slinger?

I will try and find a local group, however the locals are all infatuated with D20. All my friends play D20...and all their friends play...and all their friends. I know of my Hackmaster group and one other in the area. Now, I am sure they are out there, but finding them is the quest. But you are all right, sitting in on a game would answer a lot of my questions. My group is pretty open minded and will play just about anything, but I am usually the GM so it falls on me to purchase the initial books.

[Sly]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
This is correct.

I ran and played in various "GreyHERO" Campaigns for 4 years chronologically/about 3 years of actual play. It was some of the most enjoyable gaming Ive ever done, and all the characters and campaigns are fondly & oft-remembered by the various players that participated in them.

I did a AD&D 2nd Edition -> HERO System Conversion back then which worked pretty well, and have recently revised that material into to a more general Fantasy HERO Resource, with conversion documents provided for both AD&D and D&D 3e. You can check it out at www.killershrike.com ; it might be of interest to you Sly.

Thanks for the link Killer, I think by looking at conversions I can reverse engineer some of the basics for a better idea of the game. I will be reading through your site tonight.

[Steve Long]

So you mentioned that all powers balance with other powers of the same level, but not in the way 3rd edition feats "balance" with each other. So at a beginning level, say the 75 point build, is a character who specializes in combat on equal footing with a spell slinger?

That depends on how they're built, and the magic system in use. I've seen plenty of games and characters where the sword-slingers and spell-slingers were pretty much equal in most respects. OTOH, I've seen games where wizards suffered in combat, but were much more useful in non-combat situations than the more one-dimensional fighters.

Part of the beauty -- and difficulty -- of the HERO System is that there's no pat answer to your question. It depends on many factors.

[Sly]

Originally posted by Steve Long
That depends on how they're built, and the magic system in use. I've seen plenty of games and characters where the sword-slingers and spell-slingers were pretty much equal in most respects. OTOH, I've seen games where wizards suffered in combat, but were much more useful in non-combat situations than the more one-dimensional fighters.

Part of the beauty -- and difficulty -- of the HERO System is that there's no pat answer to your question. It depends on many factors.

Well, if some one makes a one-dimensional fighter in any system they are asking for a beating A fighter should always have skills to fall back on, I have never been a fan of "Me crush yoo!" fighters. They have no style, no flair, no depth. I am definately intrigued by HERO, I am probably going to order the main and fantasy books and spend a weekend reading them. Thanks again for the input everyone, hopefully I can contribute to later discussions

[Monolith]

There were a couple of people in the Player Finder forum from the Tampa area who were also looking for a game to play. It might benefit you to get in touch with them. Maybe you could sit in on a game or two or they could run some combat sessions with you to help you get a feel for the system. There link is here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&threadid=8312

If you look around in that PF section you might find other Tampa gamers. I only went back to the 3rd or 4th page.

[Bartman]

I might also mention that one of the advantages of Hero is that Steve Long, the Hero Line Developer, frequents these boards. In fact he has already responded personally to one of your questions. There are very few RPGs where the author and editor of the system is so easily accessable. And IMO that is a good thing.

If you have any questions when you get your books please post them here Sly. We're always happy to discuss any feature of the system.

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by Sly
I am definately intrigued by HERO, I am probably going to order the main and fantasy books and spend a weekend reading them.

Now thats funny read FRED AND the FHonebook in one weekend . I'd also pick up a tube of ICY / HOT for your postman when they arrive, they are big books.

Seriously though HERO is a great system and has excellent online support from the company and the fans. It managed to remain fairly popular despite nearly 10 years of neglect and DoJ has actually managed to improve the game since they took over.

[Sly]

Killer: Nice site, it has just been bookmarked

Toadmaster: I have looked over the books in the store and they are bigguns...although the icy/hot is for the postman, I would probably need a two liter of Jolt and a bottle of nodoze...ahhh, memories of undergrad cramming.