Block and STR

[Graviton]

Nothing like a heated rules debate first thing on a Sunday morning...

The question came up about how STR should or should not affect the Block Maneuver. My co-GM and I see things a bit differently.

He has always felt the Block maneuver represents actually stoppping the attack cold. Like Superman stopping a punch with his open palm, or putting up a forearm. He says a Block with the SFX of 'getting out of the way' is just a Dodge.

I say the SFX can be 'getting out of the way', but it's not a pure concentration on dodging, it's also setting up for a return attack. I cite the complete lack of reference to STR in any descriptions of the Maneuver, either in FREd, UMA, or the FAQ. The only things close are the "Redefining Block" items in UMA.

We've decided to try a compromise: we're going to rule that a Block deflects half the damage from an attack (Item #2 in the Redefining Block, pg. 143 of UMA), but only the STR damage. This way, any damage added by DCs with Martial Arts or Maneuver bonses can be completely blocked, but the STR damage will depend on the relative STR of the combatants. So two STR 15 martial artists tossing around 12d6 Offensive Strikes can still Block each other normally, but a STR 15 martial artist Blocking a STR 60 brick's punch is still going to feel it.

How do you guys handle relative STR with Block?

[Lord Liaden]

Personally, I agree with you that the SFX of Block don't necessarily require that the blow be opposed with force. It doesn't necessarily have to be a Dodge, either; some martial arts such as Aikido allow for redirecting the force of a blow, rather than either stopping it or avoiding it.

However, I agree that in some cases, for some types of Blocks defined as opposing a blow, the resulting visuals can be a little ludicrous, like a fantasy warrior Blocking a twelve-foot giant's club with his sword. In cases like that, my group has used an approach very similar to yours: the Blocking character takes half the base damage. All applicable Defenses apply, including any protection worn on the body part used to Block, and/or the Defense of the weapon used to Block with. We also usually only use base Strength exclusive of Martial Arts bonuses, on the premise that these bonuses come from skill rather than brute force - although that may vary depending on how the Art is defined.

Note that in our system, Blocking Killing damage in this way may reduce the damage, but without Resistant Defence you're still going to take some Body; it's rarely effective to try to shield yourself from a balle axe with your bare hands.

[Blue]

Block is essentially a parry manuver. You aren't necessarily "getting out of the way" of the attack so much as deflecing it. I have no problem with a martial artist or well trained fighter deflecting the massive blow of a brick.

It's not purely strength. I tend to think that if anything the "special effect" would be catching the person's fist in a show of strength.

[Acroyear]

Most blocks in the real world are a redirection (sometimes of both the incoming blow and of yourself) to reduce the impact. Just taking the hit on the arm would result in a lot of broken arms even for normal martial artists.

Combat maneuvers are not, however, limited by mechanics (just like powers). A "Strike" maneuver can be a punch, kick, elbow, head butt, knee, double handed smash, etc, etc. A block can be slappig the blow away, rolling with it precisely, catching the incoming attack, etc... the part to remember about Blocks, though is that it is OCV vs OCV. So some aspect of your colorful description should include intercepting the attack or moving in such a way as you are guaging the attack. I might accept a "avoid a hit" block for some characters and not for others... more of the latter, I would say.

A Dodge, however, ups your DCV vs everybody. A Block, only vs your attacker. So in the case of your "block" being avoiding being hit... you are so wrapped up on that incoming attack, you're not getting any bonuses against anyone else.

STR/Damage classes, etc have no impact on the Block, at all.

However, some people play that you always take 1/4 the damage of blocked attacks (for that small amount of impact) which gives strong attack types a slight advantage and also makes the highly defensive players suffer a little (usually 25% isn't that bad, though. I mean, a 20d6 hit it reduced to 5d6). Just watch out for the damage shields...

[Keneton]

In old Fantasy hero wepons could only block up to (I believe) 2x their defense in body. Wepons would sometimes break so people would use a turning block at a -2 OCV. This turned block avoided damaging the weapons.

For years we use Turn and Block, and my friends in TN still use this even with superheroes. I will not use this with supers. I may use it for FH depending on the new rules set. In this way Fantasy Martial Artist could turn an axe attack by blocking at -2 OCV. If they wanted to take the damage to the Hand they could block at full OCV. This WAS a Hero rule at one time.

[Alibear]

I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance.

BTW someone from my Karate club broke someones arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. I always read that as rolling an 8 on hit location!

[Graviton]

Originally posted by Alibear
I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance.

Exactly the point I was trying to make with my co-GM. I think he's hung up on the word "Block" and can't picture any other SFX for it. He keeps saying, "the SFX of a Move Through is moving through somebody, that's it, so you can't use just any ol' SFX for a Maneuver." I likened it to a Power, pointing out the description of the maneuver in UMA says, "avoiding damage," not "stopping attacks cold". Just like Desolidification is not restricted to the SFX "intangible" anymore, it's can also be a way to simply avoid or negate damage.

The biggest point is that nowhere in any official document is STR relevant to the maneuver in any way. Unless one can use the SFX of "redirecting the attack" or "twisting out of the way" that would be a glaring rules omission. And we all know that's impossible!

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I am rather surprised this isn't covered in the FAQ, tho. I can't be the first person to ask this question...

[Blue]

It's only been about a thousand years since I read the combat manuvers, so I might be suggesting something already accounted for...

If he's going to be hung up on the word BLOCK as meaning that full contact is made but lessened by the defensive manuver, then he'll have to start subtracting STRs from one another. The 50 STR brick swings at the 25 STR Martial Artist. Implementing the Block manuver would subtract the 25 from the 50. The net would be the roll made. Maybe levels in block could be earmarked to lessen the damage further.

Would certainly make it more dangerous to block a weapon than a bare fist. That 50 STR brick swinging a telephone pole should inspire a Dodge instead of a block.

But then you are getting into the realm of house rules with all this; something I try to avoid.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Graviton

How do you guys handle relative STR with Block?

Honestly I don't think it's an issue, block especially in martial arts is not just taking the hit, it's also deflection, such as turning the hand away with a slap of your forearm or back of hand.

Especialy in simulating comicbook characters I see no need to add extra effect to the rules, you still have to roll to hit the target, blow a phase to do the maneuver.

[TheEmerged]

I know I'm about to sound like a Rule Mechanic/Geek but...

High STR characters already have enough advantages. No sense giving them more

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Alibear
I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance.

But at the same time, in the Real World there's no clear distinction between blocking and dodging. Many maneuvers I've learned (well, tried to) were hybrid block/dodge/strikes, like slipping a punch in boxing.

We used to allow blocking at -1 OCV to simulate a deflection block, so as not to take damage to the weapon/shield. I've lost characters to that -1 OCV, too.

BTW someone from my Karate club broke someones arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. I always read that as rolling an 8 on hit location!

Conversely I've seen kickers break their shins on their targets' elbows or knees which they put out to block. And there's a kickboxing quicktime movie floating out on the net somewhere of a pro kickboxer ending his career in this way when his opponent raised his knee to block. The way his leg flopped around at mid-shin... well, don't watch it if you're squeamish.

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Old Man
But at the same time, in the Real World there's no clear distinction between blocking and dodging.

True

Originally posted by Old Man

Conversely I've seen kickers break their shins on their targets' elbows or knees which they put out to block. And there's a kickboxing quicktime movie floating out on the net somewhere of a pro kickboxer ending his career in this way when his opponent raised his knee to block. The way his leg flopped around at mid-shin... well, don't watch it if you're squeamish.

Seen that one... ouch!

I used to have a very good turning kick and my instructor would block it by sticking his elbow up and letting me kick that. It hurt like a SOB.

[Champsguy]

Well, first, ask your friend to show you where in the rules it says anything about strength. If he can't find a rule in the book that says precisely how to treat relative strengths, then it seems he's just making stuff up (which, as we all know, he is).

You've got the rules right. Your friend is wrong.

If maneuvers can't have any old special effects, ask him about haymaker. What does a haymaker look like? It'll look different for a guy with no arms as compared to a Japanese tentacle beast.

[Graviton]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Well, first, ask your friend to show you where in the rules it says anything about strength. If he can't find a rule in the book that says precisely how to treat relative strengths, then it seems he's just making stuff up (which, as we all know, he is).

That's the first thing I did. I see that as my strongest argument: as complex and yet flexible as these rules are, if STR were in any way involved, there'd be something official SOMEWHERE. There's not. The question isn't on the FAQ and AFAIK has never even come up on the boards, fer Pete's sake.

The problem is not that he's unaware of the rules, the problem is he doesn't like the fact that there are no rules about it. And that's because he has pinned one SFX to the Manuever and he can't get his mind around anything else. So it has moved beyond just proving that the rules allow for any SFX, it's basically an opinion thing. He wants a house rule to basically give high-STR characters an advantage, I do not. Since we co-GM the same universe, and have for 20 years, I can't just summarily rule. Well, I guess I could when I'm GMing, but that's crazy to use different house rules in the same game world. So we need to find something with which we're both comfortable.

I'm going to give my side one more shot, by directing him to this thread. I posted it while he was here last weekend and I'm anxious for him to read all these responses and then discuss it with him. I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks again!

[LightningBolt]

I am the Co-GM that Graviton mentioned in his opening post. Grav has missed a key point in my argument, I feel, and I just wanted to throw my viewpoint into the mix.

Graviton wrote <<He has always felt the Block maneuver represents actually stopping the attack cold. Like Superman stopping a punch with his open palm, or putting up a forearm. He says a Block with the SFX of 'getting out of the way' is just a Dodge.

I say the SFX can be 'getting out of the way,' but it's not a pure concentration on dodging, it's also setting up for a return attack.>>

I understand this. I understand, and fully appreciate the flexibility of these rules. I understand, for instance, that an "Offensive strike" could be defined as anything from a kick, elbow smack, punch, head butt, whatever. Ditto every other martial maneuver. And THAT is my point. To my mind, Martial maneuvers DO have a degree of flexibility that COMMON maneuvers should not.

Blue writes "Block is essentially a parry maneuver. You aren't necessarily "getting out of the way" of the attack so much as deflecting it. I have no problem with a martial artist or well trained fighter deflecting the massive blow of a brick."

Me either. There you are talking about a highly trained martial artist, not a person with no special fighting skills.

Allibear writes "I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance. "

EXACTLY... The key part of this paragraph is "People who take Martial Arts."

People who have TRAINED can do these things. But I know I couldn't!!! In the real world, I've been in one fight in my 42 years of existence, I've never trained and I'm absolutely certain I could NEVER get my body of the way in such a manner that I could then hit back first. I COULD throw up an arm and block, perhaps, but that's, then, when the issue of strength becomes important. If my opponent is 2X stronger than me, I'm going to have a severely bruised arm. If my opponent is 32X stronger, I'm definitely going to have my arm shattered!

Allibear writes further "BTW someone from my Karate club broke someone's arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. "

There ya go. There's a real life example of exactly what I'm talking about.

Starcorp Man writes "Honestly I don't think it's an issue, block especially in martial arts is not just taking the hit, it's also deflection, such as turning the hand away with a slap of your forearm or back of hand. "

Yup. Agreed. For martial block, makes perfect sense. But what about a COMMON block? Do you think someone with no training is actually capable of deflecting an attack? Personally, I do not.

Okay...

Let me say a few things here. #1, I brought this up because it's always bothered me. When the 5th Ed came out and still didn't touch on it, I started this discussion with Gravition. He keeps saying it's "mentioned no where in the literature," a point he has brought up time and time again... to the point I'm a tad frustrated because, to my mind, it's absolutely irrelevant. I understand it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules. So what???? Let's make realism the goal and mutually decide what's most realistic. If the rules reflect that, fine. If they don't, let's amend the rules. What is already written in the rulebook isn't sacrosanct. Again: I UNDERSTAND it's not there. And that's EXACTLY what's always bothered me!

The whole point of these rules, to my mind, is to simulate reality as closely as is possible. I simply want Maximum Realism. We, Graviton and I, ruled years before the 5th Ed came out that we didn't like Absorption as it was described and opted to do "simple absorption" instead. We took the "simple absorption" from another Hero source, true, but it was NOT in the rulebook. We added it to our rulebook because we felt it was more effective, realistic, promoted better balance.

#2- I've always always always been bothered by this, for better than 12 years of continuous gaming. I've never been bothered so much that I desired to make a great issue out of it, however. It's only coming up now because of the 5th Ed. I thought, with the updated rules, this might be addressed. It wasn't. I found that odd. I brought this discussion up. But I've already conceded it's not a Life or Death issue here. I'm perfectly willing to, as I've said to Grav, bury my disbelief since I'm absolutely incapable of suspending it.

Okay. #3. Now here's my main point here.

When is a move-through NOT "barreling into someone"? When is a dodge NOT "getting out of the way of the attack"?

Certainly, point conceded, a Martial Strike can be any number of things. Ditto ALL martial maneuvers. But those martial maneuvers imply a degree of skill NOT possessed by every man.

My contention is that EVERY man can lower their head and charge at someone, running into them: a move-through.

ANYONE can squirm out of the way of an attack: a dodge.

ANYONE can attempt a grab: a grab (is there ANY other imaginative way of defining a grab other than "wrapping your __something_ around a target in a grip"? Whether you use tentacles, a hand, a tongue, whatever, a grab is a grab is a grab.

Likewise, ANYONE can throw up an arm, doing THAT kind of block.

But a counterstrike block, a sidestep block, the kind of blocks everyone is talking about via Kickboxing or Martial arts, those seem highly skilled to me. That does not seem to be to be an "everyman maneuver."

There's a part of me, honestly, that has trouble with the concept of a Common Block at all. To not only avoid taking all damage from an attack, no matter how powerful, and at the SAME TIME setting yourself up to attack back first, that seems to require a degree of skill not possessed by every man. However... I can see how it would work for every man if you ARE talking about a "classic" block- throwing up an arm. A block for a common man, I almost see, as a kind of warding off gesture. You're about to be hit, you instinctively throw up your arm to take the impact as opposed to taking it on the chin. And, in THAT situation, where you do, in essence, stop an attack cold, I see how, yes, the common untrained average Joe Schmoe would be able to attack back first. The very act of stopping the attack cold is what opens up the attacker to your punch.

So, in my opinion, where the issue of greater strength becomes relevant is with THIS kind of block, a "stopping block cold" block, a "my arm stops your punch" block. In short, the issue of strength becomes relative, to my mind, with a COMMON block.

With a Martial Block? That's a whole other deal. Yes, I'll accept that Batman is able to sidestep Ben Grimm's Sunday punch, or deflect it, or basically use SKILL to counter incredible strength.

But this makes absolutely no sense to me where the common block is concerned.

The whole issue of weapons, adding that, makes this even MORE muddled to my mind. The average Joe can use a shield to take the impact of a punch, what I think of as a "classic block," meaning "stopping the attack." There, yes, Fantasy Hero has all kinds of optional rules about how much body said shield can absorb. There's no equivalent deal with a human arm.

I understand, yes, you're all saying "it need not be an appendage" that stops the attack. My point is, that's the ONLY kind of block, I think, that's feasible for someone to attempt without special training.

I'm done. I welcome comments. Feel free to tell me I'm full of it. I've already been told I'm loony because I'm the only one in tens of thousands of GMs who's ever been bothered by this. 8-)