Anybody ever pull a "Kobayashi Maru"?

**Sociotard** · Nov 24th, '03, 03:32 PM

I misspelled that, I just know I did. Anyway, back to the question. This would probably require player permission, but has anyone ever tried a scenario in which there is absa-friga-lutely no chance the players will survive, much less win, just to see how long they can hold off the inevitable?

**austenandrews** · Nov 24th, '03, 03:35 PM

I have run horror games, if that's what you mean.

-AA

**McCoy** · Nov 24th, '03, 03:49 PM

First scenerio in Champions Battlegrounds. Almost no way to keep the bomb from going off.

**austenandrews** · Nov 24th, '03, 04:42 PM

I've run and played in many short-runs with few or no survivors. Sometimes it's great to see who can die with the most style.

-AA

**trechriron** · Nov 24th, '03, 05:13 PM

No.

Umm, is that ok? The short answer? I feel kinda wierd but I felt compelled to answer SOMETHING.

;-)

**Old Man** · Nov 24th, '03, 05:20 PM

Most of the games I've played in had enough risk built in to every fight that intentional KMs were not really necessary. That said, we did slog through several fights that we were meant to run away from. Most of those involved dragons IIRC.

**Ghost who Walks** · Nov 24th, '03, 09:18 PM

Not in the Fantasy genre, but in the Superheroic I have.

I set the players back in time to 1453 Constantinople (Modern day Istanbul). The turks were besieging the city, and the players were sent there to recover a magical artifact, needed in the future.

In history, the city falls, and the Turks overrun most of SE Europe for the next 400 years. However, if the players had stopped it, there would have been no flood of refugees into Italy that started the Reinassance...

They found the object they were looking for at the last minute, and escaped. I wanted to do a big war-battle type scenario, and this was an obscure enough place/time to do it.

D20 even did a scenario module about Constantinople, as I recall.

For Fantasy games, Turks make a great "evil empire" to research. (No offense to the modern Turks that I know

). Tolkien base his concept of "orcs" partly on Turks.

Far as I am concerned, if it advances the plot and storyline, the players can lose. Just be sure to leave hints that they may not win this one.

Note: Have never set up a situation to really kill off characters, having them get beaten is usually enough for me.

**Vondy** · Nov 25th, '03, 08:22 AM

I'm running one in my PBEM Vampire game right now. The scenario isn't designed to kill them in so much as it is designed to put them in a position where they have to make hard decisions. I've been fairly impressed with the level of roleplay thats emerged (thus far).

**austenandrews** · Nov 25th, '03, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by D-Man
I'm running one in my PBEM Vampire game right now. The scenario isn't designed to kill them in so much as it is designed to put them in a position where they have to make hard decisions. I've been fairly impressed with the level of roleplay thats emerged (thus far).

Now -that's- something I do as a matter of course, with willing players -- put them in situations where there are no right or wrong answers, just difficult decisions that explore their characters and stretch their characterizations. For me that's the most rewarding game of all.

-AA

**misterdeath** · Nov 25th, '03, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Sociotard
I misspelled that, I just know I did. Anyway, back to the question. This would probably require player permission, but has anyone ever tried a scenario in which there is absa-friga-lutely no chance the players will survive, much less win, just to see how long they can hold off the inevitable?

If the players know first, and are amenable, sure. That would require sort of knowing what's going on/what's going to happen to some extent. Let me know why/or that there's a really good reason, and you can red-shirt my character like there's no tomorrow.

If not, no go. Lots of players, me included, put lots of loving care into their character, and having him wacked because the GM gets "a Kewl Idea" isn't copacetic.

D

**Stormraven** · Nov 25th, '03, 09:11 AM

Never, never, never. I detest no-win scenarios. I hate them as a player, so I will never inflict them upon my players as a GM.

Note, however, that a lot of what other people say they've created aren't exactly 'no-win' scenarios.

Setting up a situation where the characters have to run isn't 'no-win'. They can survive and return to fight another day. The whole point of the Kobayashi Maru scenario was that the Enterprise couldn't run and couldn't win.

I'll set up situations where the characters have to run. I'll set up situations where the only options are unpalatable. I will not set up situations where the characters have no options.

**austenandrews** · Nov 25th, '03, 10:11 AM

It also depends on how the GM and players define "winning." I've set up situations where the PCs are going to get captured, no two ways about it, because that's where I want the plot to go. Now I've had players who are fine with that, because they know that there's going to be a payoff down the road; and I've had players who utterly despise that, because (in their minds) I toyed with them before humiliating them. (Then again I've also had players who just hate losing period. I don't care for them much.)

In any campaign I try to track which way the players lean, so I can tailor my scenarios appropriately. That's the important thing, since we're all collaborators on a collective storyline.

(My own preference as a player is to match the genre at hand. In a standard fantasy or gritty modern game, I'll try to be creative and get out of a dangerous trap any way I can. In a Star Trek or a Golden Age Champs game, though, if I'm in a room and gas starts pouring in, I'll clutch my throat, burst into a coughing fit and collapse to the floor. I don't need prompting to know how the genre works.

)

-AA

**McCoy** · Nov 25th, '03, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Stormraven
Setting up a situation where the characters have to run isn't 'no-win'. They can survive and return to fight another day. The whole point of the Kobayashi Maru scenario was that the Enterprise couldn't run and couldn't win.

No, in the Kobayashi Maru scenario the Captain had the option of not violating the Neutral Zone. Remember one possibilitythat had to be considered was that this was not a legitimate distress signal, but a trap by the Romulans to create a diplomatic incident. It was a no-win scenario because it was impossible to rescue the ship sending the distress call.

**Farkling** · Nov 29th, '03, 02:59 AM

I have run no-win scenarios...

but for throw away campaigns...

The first time I GM'd chartmaster (I mean Role Master!, a friend brought over the books and said, "can you run this?"), I manufactured twelve characters at mid level, handed them out to the six players, and told them this was a playtest only, not permanent characters. Only one survived, and that was by leaving in the midst of the confrontation.

I also did one of those scenarios as a playtest for Amber, to get the players used to the system before the attribute auction. The players eventually gave up on the scenario and decided to retreat into Corwyn's Pattern...which exited into the Abyss in Corwyn's world. They could not figure out any way to escape, and we called the game then and there.

And anyone who has EVER played Paranoia is intimately familiar with the no-win scenario...

**badger3k** · Nov 29th, '03, 07:52 PM

With the exception of paranoia and cthulhu, I've never had a no-survive game (well, one that is designed for pcs not to survive - there's a difference). I've never really had one where the players couldn't win (in the long run - some losses are part of the campaign/storyline).

In most situations, the players can win if they play smart. It's just that sometimes winning calls for a tactical withdrawl