Star Boy and Light Lass

[Dr. Anomaly]

Okay, fellow Herophiles, I'm asking for help on this one...

I've spent quite a while converting the characters from the "classic" (pre-Reboot) Legion of Super-Heroes into Champions form. I've managed all of them to my satisfaction except for Star Boy and Light Lass.

For the uninitiate, Star Boy induces mass from the stars into another object/person. In essence this tends to make things too heavy to move (unless you're a Kryptonian or Daxamite) and can make things like walls, buildings, and bridges buckle and collapse under their own weight. Light Lass does nearly the opposite...reducing the weight of an object or person (I'm assuming they mean de-gravitating the object, not de-massing it, though some of what was shown in early stories looks a lot more like decreasing the mass instead of shielding it from gravitation).

So far, I've been unable to come up with a satisfactory way to represent these two powers. The Until SPDB wasn't much help -- I didn't like its rather limited approach. I've also see other people propose the "just use an entangle" approach for Star Boy.

My first inclination for Star Boy is to use Density Increase, Usable As An Attack, No STR Gain, as that gives pretty much EXACTLY the effect I'm looking for...except that FREd specifically prohibits that exact construction! In a similar vein, I'd look at Shrinking UAA No Size Change for Light Lass, but once again...

Sigh.

Any brilliant notions floating around out there?

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
For the uninitiate, Star Boy induces mass from the stars into another object/person. In essence this tends to make things too heavy to move (unless you're a Kryptonian or Daxamite) and can make things like walls, buildings, and bridges buckle and collapse under their own weight.

i don't have the USPDB at work so i cannot remember how they did it.
the effect is variable; but i would just use a limited indirect telekinesis with a big amount of STR. or eventually a transform.
all the effects you're describing can be achieved with TK :

- make things too heavy to move : a TK grab without STR damage. Entangle simply doesn't fit there. the "made heavy" character has to make escape (STR) rolls each time he wants to move.
- can make things like walls, buildings, etc... collapse under their own weight : a plain TK grab with STR damage.

- simply make things heavier : major physical transform (10 pts per D6 roughly equivalent to DI); partial transform; increased recovery time.

Light Lass does nearly the opposite...reducing the weight of an object or person (I'm assuming they mean de-gravitating the object, not de-massing it, though some of what was shown in early stories looks a lot more like decreasing the mass instead of shielding it from gravitation).

same thing and exactly the same construct but with opposite limitations (only to make things lighter).

eventually a flight UAA

[Just A Guy Name]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
My first inclination for Star Boy is to use Density Increase, Usable As An Attack, No STR Gain, as that gives pretty much EXACTLY the effect I'm looking for...except that FREd specifically prohibits that exact construction! In a similar vein, I'd look at Shrinking UAA No Size Change for Light Lass, but once again...

Sigh.

Any brilliant notions floating around out there?

I think your problem is caused by a confusion of the meaning in the Usable As Attack section. The injunction there is against taking limitations on powers UaA, unless the limitation affects only the character using the power. In your case (presumably in the case given in the book also, as it is exactly the same as your idea: an editorial error) however, the "Does Not Increase STR" modifier is not a Limitation to the power, but rather an Advantage, as it is enhancing the debilitating effects of the attack on the target. The same logic applies to your Shrinking dilemma. If the DI would still provide the pluses to PD and ED, I would estimate it at about a +3/4 advantage. Since the decreased size provides the only benefits to Shrinking, the "No Size Change" should be worth more, maybe a +1. Just for the record, I think an Entangle is probably a better way to represent Star Boy's power, although I rather like the idea of the Shrinking power for Light Lass.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
My first inclination for Star Boy is to use Density Increase, Usable As An Attack, No STR Gain, as that gives pretty much EXACTLY the effect I'm looking for...except that FREd specifically prohibits that exact construction! In a similar vein, I'd look at Shrinking UAA No Size Change for Light Lass, but once again...

The part that FREd prohibits is taking a -1/2 Limitation for No STR Gain. If you take it as a +1/2 Advantage it should be okay.

[coach]

Transform seems to be a good way to handle this. Limit it to only affect the target as long as SB/LL concentrates on it. You'd also want to buy it variable, I would imagine, so that they could affect the weight a litle or a lot. And maybe all-or-nothing.

If you didn't like that, I would go with the TK power. Although, I usually find that more appropriate for gravity powers, rather than actually changing something's mass.

I'd love to see what you have come up with on those. Old Legion was one of my favorite comic books.

[lemming]

Sam used TK for his version of Star Boy.

[JSenecal]

I did a character with these abilities years ago. For mass increase, I used STR Drain, sticky (only when lifting original target). The idea is that the character is effectivly weaker because they are using their STR to hold up their increased mass. When their STR gets to -30, they can't move at all. The sticky is to represent that it's dificult for anyone else to move the heavy character, but the sticky advantage is limited to only apply when attempting to move the original target.

For the opposite effect, I used STR aid instead (still with the sticky advantage). I treated each +5STR as half mass.

The problem was that the attacks were so expensive, that they were little use in combat. Oh well, they were still occansionaly handy.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Thank you for your replies. I'll try to address the various posters/ideas individually. If I miss someone, my apologies, I'm a bit rushed for time.

Re: USPDB -- they used Entangle. Ick.

Re: TK/Transform -- I had also considered the TK variation, and was coming to the conclusion that might be the way I had to do it. Major Transform was also something I considered, but thought it would probably be too expensive. MT with Partial Transform, though, might be workable...

Re: No STR as an *Advantage* -- I like this idea a *lot*. In the pre-Reboot stuff, nothing was ever said that would indicate an increased PD/ED came with the added mass, though in the post-Reboot series, it was specifically mentioned as making the object/person harder to hurt (higher mass, same volume = increased density, natch).

Coach: I've got 9 of the Legionnaires done up completely (character sheets done & layed out in HTML, using Hero Designer). The rest of them are handwritten notes, but I'll be doing the Hero Designer input & HTML output over the next couple of weeks or so. When I get them done, I'll be happy to post them somewhere. If you want to see what I've got NOW (those 9) let me know and I'll start putting them up NOW.

lemming: Yes, I'm very familiar with Sam's work. When I started running a LSH Champions campaign a couple of years ago, I realized it would be a mammoth undertaking to convert/write up all the Legionnaires, so I went searching on the web first. Frankly, I thought Sam's write-ups were...lacking. I'm a very detail-oriented type of person, and these seemed more like 'sketches' to me, rather than full characters. I came to the conclusion that to make myself happy, I'd just have to do the conversions/write-ups myself. As a result most of the Legionnaires are in the 500 to 1100 point range, so it's definitely for a high-power campaign. Doubtless others who look at my write-ups will see them as either over-detailed, over-powered, or both...but they make me happy, and if anyone can get some use or enjoyment out of them, I'll be happy to share.

JSenecal: You know, the Sticky STR Drain/Aid was one of the options I was toying with, but thought it was a bit 'clunky'. Overall, though, it's probably no more 'clunky' than Density Increase with a No STR Advantage.

Other Legion Design Notes:

The Legion members have access to some equipment that would be prohibitively expensive (Flight Rings, for example) if purchased by each Legionnaire. In the end, this is what I did:

1) Figure out the the cost for one of the item of equipment in question, or the total cost for something (like the HQ)

2) For items that exist in large numbers, apply the "+5 points = double the number of Foci" rule, with enough doublings to account for everyone who ever had one of these items, and then one more doubling to account for those that were broken, lost, destroyed, given away, etc. This gives the new total.

3) Divide the 'new total' by the number of characters who would have paid for one of these items. This gives the cost per character to have/use one of these. The end result looks like this:

4 Donation: Legion HQ
1 Donation: Legion Cruisers
5 Donation: Legion Time Bubbles
1 Legion Equipment: Flight Ring
1 Legion Equipment: Telepathic Plug
1 Legion Equipment: TransSuit

So for an individual Legion character, he or she would spend 13 points to have (or have access to) the equipment, vehicles, and base in question.

This proved not only economical but necessary; the Flight Ring, as I wrote them up, cost 291 points. Granted, since I wrote the Flight Ring up as a tiny Vehicle, the actual cost would be much lower, but still prohibitive if I didn't do the multiply-numbers-then-divide-cost maneuver.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
lemming: Yes, I'm very familiar with Sam's work. When I started running a LSH Champions campaign a couple of years ago, I realized it would be a mammoth undertaking to convert/write up all the Legionnaires, so I went searching on the web first. Frankly, I thought Sam's write-ups were...lacking. I'm a very detail-oriented type of person, and these seemed more like 'sketches' to me, rather than full characters. I came to the conclusion that to make myself happy, I'd just have to do the conversions/write-ups myself.

I don't Sam would of had any problem with that.

[Farkling]

SFX:: I slow the target by increasing his mass until he cannot stand or move. Eventually he will be immobilized by the sheer weight, and will break structures beneath him.

Possible Powers::
Density Increase, UAA
Drain STR and Movement
Entangle - no damage
Drain SPD and STR
Drain STR + Entangle
Telekinesis
Flight, UAA

Of these constructs, the only ones that can do damage to the environment surrounding our target are the TK, Flight, and Density Increase, unless an RKA is linked in.

1) Density Increase, UAA.
I cannot recall, in perusing my cousin's VAST collection of Legion comics, that Star Boy ever used his power to augment someones defenses, kinda removes a chunk of the DI functionality.
2) Telekinesis
Functionally, this is the best SINGLE power, and belongs in the framework is the powers are frameworked. The reasons sited above are sufficient. TK can smash...it can grab...and it can be set to "push" downwards, eventually smashing the substance the charaacter is on.
3) Flight, UAA
Only to push in conjunction with gravity. IF this is a constant power, it takes on some of the aspects of TK. Additionally, if a character breaks free of a 'TK Grab' he is unaffected by it all. This will simply exert a downward force that must be overcome with STR and/or mvoement (according to GM's interp). Additionally, this construct HURTS, as it performs a continual move thru against the ground...perhaps the "full acceleration" modifier should be included on it.

As to breaking things, only TK can perform that function alone. I would recomend a simple KA usable against inanimate objects.

[Just A Guy Name]

While I still think it is not the best way to simulate the power in question, DI UaA does fit conceptually. If the extra PD and ED are deemed not in accordance with that concept, then you could just dump them along with the STR increase, and adjust the advantage appropriately, probably to +1.

[Lightray]

Originally posted by Farkling
3) Flight, UAA
Only to push in conjunction with gravity. IF this is a constant power, it takes on some of the aspects of TK. Additionally, if a character breaks free of a 'TK Grab' he is unaffected by it all. This will simply exert a downward force that must be overcome with STR and/or mvoement (according to GM's interp). Additionally, this construct HURTS, as it performs a continual move thru against the ground...perhaps the "full acceleration" modifier should be included on it.

That's the one I toyed with last time I was considering a gravity manipulator -- primarily because of the way Star Hero models gravity effects.

I think that with a Density Increase UVO variant you'll end up making so many house rulings on how the power operates that you'd be better served by just defining a new power based on the DI UVO cost structure.

Dr. Anomaly: I'm a big LSH fan, and I'd be interested in seeing your take on them. Although 291 pt. Flight Rings make me cringe to contemplate.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Other Legion Design Notes:

The Legion members have access to some equipment that would be prohibitively expensive (Flight Rings, for example) if purchased by each Legionnaire. In the end, this is what I did:

1) Figure out the the cost for one of the item of equipment in question, or the total cost for something (like the HQ)

2) For items that exist in large numbers, apply the "+5 points = double the number of Foci" rule, with enough doublings to account for everyone who ever had one of these items, and then one more doubling to account for those that were broken, lost, destroyed, given away, etc. This gives the new total.

3) Divide the 'new total' by the number of characters who would have paid for one of these items. This gives the cost per character to have/use one of these. The end result looks like this:

4 Donation: Legion HQ
1 Donation: Legion Cruisers
5 Donation: Legion Time Bubbles
1 Legion Equipment: Flight Ring
1 Legion Equipment: Telepathic Plug
1 Legion Equipment: TransSuit

So for an individual Legion character, he or she would spend 13 points to have (or have access to) the equipment, vehicles, and base in question.

This proved not only economical but necessary; the Flight Ring, as I wrote them up, cost 291 points. Granted, since I wrote the Flight Ring up as a tiny Vehicle, the actual cost would be much lower, but still prohibitive if I didn't do the multiply-numbers-then-divide-cost maneuver.

Part of the problem with building something to try and cover *everything* you've ever seen a character or piece of equipment do in *every* issue in which it appears is that so many writers over so many years have invoked SO many powers/abilities/skills that it can get REALLY expensive. Below is my write-up for a Flight Ring; since it's a vehicle (a tiny one, but a vehicle at that) its cost is only 1/5 what the total is; still expensive, but not stupidly so.

The stats are as high as they are so the ring can reasonably "keep up with" almost an Legionnaire who's using one, not counting Kryptonians/Daxamites. Speed 8 and DEX 35 covers most everyone else, by a wide margin.

Flight is a multipower because it's reasonably fast, can be used underwater (the story with the pollution-eater) and can be planted on another person and used to "fly" them by remote control (later story of Sun Boy vs. Dr. Regulus).

The distress signal has been used several times, and the rings have also been used as short-range communicators, though not until after the Great Darkness Saga. Likewise the "Identify, Friend or Foe" function (where one Flight Ring can cause any others nearby to sound their "beep").

Using your willpower to expand the ring's antigravity field for use as touch-range TK can also be done (Dream Girl, in the story where all Naltorians have lost their power of prophecy due to a new device that prevents the planet's unpredictable earthquakes).

It's also been stated in a couple of stories that the rings may be rendered invisible, either for undercover work or if a Legionnaire is visiting (or is from) one of those planets that find personal adornment to be socially unacceptable. (Personally, I think it's a retcon to explain why artists frequently forgot to draw them on Legionnaire's fingers -- "No, it has the ability to become invisible...really!!!")

Once you add all that up, the cost is suprisingly high. Take a look:

<font size=+1><b>Legion Flight Ring</b></font>

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><font size=2><b>Val </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Char </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Cost</b></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STR</b></font></td><td><font size=2>20</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>35 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>DEX</b></font></td><td><font size=2>75</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>20 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>BODY</b></font></td><td><font size=2>10</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>8 </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SPD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>35</font></td></tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>0" </font></td><td><font size=2><b>RUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>-12</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>0" </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SWIM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>-2</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>0" </font></td><td><font size=2><b>LEAP</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr></table><b>Characteristics Cost:</b> 150

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b></b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">60 </td><td><b><i>Flight: </i></b>Multipower, 75-point reserve, all slots IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">6u </td><td>1) <b><i>Standard: </i></b>Flight 30", Usable Underwater (+1/4); IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">6u </td><td>2) <b><i>High-Speed: </i></b>Flight 20", Scalable (+1/4), Megascale (1" = 10 km; +1/2); IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3u </td><td>3) <b><i>Surprise!: </i></b>Flight 15", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1); Must Plant Ring on Target (-1), IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4 </td><td><b><i>Distress Signal: </i></b>Mind Link , Specific Group of Minds, Any distance, No LOS Needed (25 Active Points); Only For Distress Signal (-2), Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), No Mental Powers Thru Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4), IIF (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">6 </td><td><b><i>Radio: </i></b>Mind Link , Specific Group of Minds, No LOS Needed (20 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), No Mental Powers Thru Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4), IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">27 </td><td><b><i>Antigrav Field: </i></b>Telekinesis (30 STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (67 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Requires A Flight Ring Ops Roll (-1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4), IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8 </td><td><b><i>Friend or Foe: </i></b>Detect Detect Other Flight Ring 18- (Unusual Group), Sense Group: Hearing (+0) (12 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">27 </td><td><b><i>Undercover: </i></b>Invisibility to Sight Group , No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Does Not Affect Passengers (-1), IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">-8 </td><td>Naked Modifier (0 Active Points); DEF Does Not Protect Passenger (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 139

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost </b></td><td><b>Talent</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2 </td><td>Absolute Time Sense (3 Active Points); IIF (-1/4) </td></tr></table><b>Talents Cost:</b> 2

<b>Total Character Cost:</b> 291

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Val </b></td><td><b>Disadvantages</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10 </td><td>Distinctive Features: Legion Flight Ring Easily Concealed, Major Reaction </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">25 </td><td>Watched: Legion of Super-Heroes 14-, More Powerful, NCI, Has Public ID </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Social Limitation: Public ID (14-), Minor </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20 </td><td>Reputation: Legion Flight Ring, Almost Always (14-), Extreme </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Physical Limitation: If override code given, obeys code user instead of wearer Infrequently, Fully Impairing </td></tr></table>
<b>Disadvantage Points:</b> 85

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by Farkling
I cannot recall, in perusing my cousin's VAST collection of Legion comics, that Star Boy ever used his power to augment someones defenses, kinda removes a chunk of the DI functionality.

My collection's pretty vast, too...I've got every issue (and I mean *every* issue) of every Legion comic up to but not including the most recent series. As I mentioned, it was in a post-Reboot story where the induced mass made someone tougher. In that story, Star Boy used his power on a loud-mouthed punk in a bar. When the surprised bully hit the floor, unmoving, about half the remaining patrons rushed him and began trying to kick & stomp him to death while he was down (he was VERY unpopular, but everyone was afraid to challenge him). Those kickers/stompers immediately began howling in pain and hopping around holding their injured feet. Thom then patiently explained that when you add mass to something without changing its size, it become more dense, and thus harder to hurt. The attempted murderers then got very nervous, saying "You mean he KNOWS that we just tried to kill him? And that when it wears off he can take it out on us?!?" and then scatter, fast, emptying the bar, leaving Thom alone with his drink and the pinned bully.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Okay, I've thrown together a quick-n-dirty website with my 9 completed Legionnaire write-ups on it. I'll be adding the rest over the next 2 weeks or so:

Legionnaire Write-Ups