Doctor Destroyer versus Takofanes

**Agent X** · Dec 22nd, '03, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by phydaux
Gee X, is there a VPP use that you DON'T think is abusive?

Plenty, just not the few mentioned here. It's a handy way to tweak change environment powers, autofires, area affect powers, etc.

**Solomon** · Dec 22nd, '03, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by drrushing
An intelligent and creative player could probably win the fight using either of these two CU juggernauts. That being said, I take something from the "Buffy" universe. When technology takes on the mystical, it gets it's butt kicked every time. Both of these characters are incredibly powerful, but I think Takofanes is more versatile.

Given HERO Universe's metasetting, Takofanes' magic origins should be considered a weak point. The underlying assumption is that there is an ambient level of "mystical energy" that powers anything from magic to superscience to mutations.

So what would happen if ambient magic was to experience a sudden drop?

Without his "powers" (supertechnology and super intellect), DD would still be a power-hungry madman with an army of fanatical followers, amazing skills and extensive contacts. Frightening enough.

On the other hand, a magic-less Takofanes had better crawl back to the cave he came from, and wait for the next "Turakian Funky Age of Acquarium and Kewl Powers". See you in a 100'000 years, Takofanes!

**Lord Liaden** · Dec 22nd, '03, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Solomon
Without his "powers" (supertechnology and super intellect), DD would still be a power-hungry madman with an army of fanatical followers, amazing skills and extensive contacts. Frightening enough.

Fair enough as far as it goes, but I have to wonder how many of those "fanatical followers" would stick around if Albert Zerstoiten didn't have his awesome powered armor, and all his agents' high-tech weapons didn't work.

Without his powers, Zerstoiten is also an 80+ year-old man who won't be around to threaten anyone much longer.

**Solomon** · Dec 22nd, '03, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Fair enough as far as it goes, but I have to wonder how many of those "fanatical followers" would stick around if Albert Zerstoiten didn't have his awesome powered armor, and all his agents' high-tech weapons didn't work.

Without his powers, Zerstoiten is also an 80+ year-old man who won't be around to threaten anyone much longer.

Point taken. So I guess the most dangerous supervillain in a world without powers would be, urm...

... Foxbat?

**Vondy** · Dec 22nd, '03, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Solomon
Point taken. So I guess the most dangerous supervillain in a world without powers would be, urm...

... Foxbat?

In my game Foxbat puts together a league of villiany on a perennial basis. No one is quite sure how he gets the likes of Firewing, Grond, and their ilk to cooperate on his zany schemes... but it certainly has put him way higher on the "threat meter" than he would otherwise merit.

**Enforcer84** · Dec 22nd, '03, 04:43 PM

Not to put a damper on some creative VPP use but a 16d6 AE Megascale eb pretty much makes sure DD is the only thing unscratched in the area.

I'd give it to him because he's got the DR Doom factor, he's been around the CU longer and he is considered the biggest menace.

**phydaux** · Dec 22nd, '03, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by D-Man
In my game Foxbat puts together a league of villiany on a perennial basis. No one is quite sure how...

In my game world Foxbat and Ogre are best buddies. Foxbat "takes care" of Ogre, and Ogre acts as Foxbat's enforcer.

Foxbat doesn't have the clout to pull together his own team, but most mid-to-low level villain teams include Foxbat & Orge.

Even if they don't WANT them.

**Keneton** · Dec 22nd, '03, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by phydaux
In my game world Foxbat and Ogre are best buddies. Foxbat "takes care" of Ogre, and Ogre acts as Foxbat's enforcer.

Foxbat doesn't have the clout to pull together his own team, but most mid-to-low level villain teams include Foxbat & Orge.

Even if they don't WANT them.

Read my signature. That is if you are a long time herophile.

**Gary** · Dec 22nd, '03, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Keneton
Actually X is right. This construct is ABUSIVE. Characteristics are usually not allowed in a VPP. By default FRED only encourages their use in Multipowers and not VPP or EC's. See FRED page 92.

Considering that one of the iconic characters, Witchcraft, has a spell that gives her characteristics in her VPP, I don't think you can possibly argue against Takofanes doing the same thing.

Originally posted by Keneton

Anyone can build weird contructs with 150 Power points. The idea of a VPP is that it is supposed to be based in conception.

How is a Spell of Ultimate Horror not within the conception of an undying Lich Lord?

**Agent X** · Dec 22nd, '03, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Gary
Considering that one of the iconic characters, Witchcraft, has a spell that gives her characteristics in her VPP, I don't think you can possibly argue against Takofanes doing the same thing.

How is a Spell of Ultimate Horror not within the conception of an undying Lich Lord?

If that's the way people want to use VPPs I can be easily persuaded to join the "don't use them crowd."

**Gary** · Dec 22nd, '03, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Agent X
If that's the way people want to use VPPs I can be easily persuaded to join the "don't use them crowd."

Actually, Witchcraft is extremely abusive with her VPP. She has a spell of Danger Sense that she leaves as the default for the VPP.

A vpp in the hands of a creative player is the GM's worst nightmare.

**Keneton** · Dec 22nd, '03, 09:01 PM

This should be another thread. If someone starts one in the hero games discussion I will join the thread. Lets not hijack this good thread with this discussion.

**Lord Liaden** · Dec 22nd, '03, 10:28 PM

Okay, let's move away from VPPs to other contentious issues:

Do you think it's fair to count Followers and other minions as part of the resources each villain can draw on? While Dr. D has his army of base agents costed on his character sheet, there's nothing to account for his higher-powered operatives, robots and supervillain underlings; he's just given carte blanche to have whatever he needs. The same open-ended resources are allowed for Takofanes, but none of his Followers are actually costed in. Given that discrepancy it might be fairer to leave all Followers out of this comparison. OTOH Tak has his Summon power to actually create undead to serve him, and potentially powerful undead at that. Should they be counted among the Followers, or as a personal power of the Archlich?

BTW if you eliminate Followers and all other given Perks from these two villains' writeups (on the premise that we're just comparing innate abilities), Destroyer comes down to 1,988 points, with Takofanes extremely close at 1,928.

**Keneton** · Dec 22nd, '03, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Okay, let's move away from VPPs to other contentious issues:

Do you think it's fair to count Followers and other minions as part of the resources each villain can draw on?

Summon Yes, Followers, no. I assume this is a one on one fight, but Summon is different. Thats like a WWE run in!

I can imagine Doc D's suprise when out of the wreckage of knockback comes both Tak and his newly formed undead army!

**Lord Liaden** · Dec 22nd, '03, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Keneton
Summon Yes, Followers, no. I assume this is a one on one fight, but Summon is different. Thats like a WWE run in!

I can imagine Doc D's suprise when out of the wreckage of knockback comes both Tak and his newly formed undead army!

See, there's the thing. If you allow Takofanes to exploit this ability (and a battlefield between these two is likely to develop corpses fairly quickly), I'd have to say that the balance of power would shift to the Undying Lord. Even if Destroyer has the power to blow this army of horrors away, they're likely to keep him occupied and wear him down, leaving Takofanes free to turn his most potent spells against Destroyer.