Doctor Destroyer versus Takofanes

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Pg 33. "His greatest powers lie in the arcana of Necromancy, but he can command virtually any type of magic imaginable".

That seems to indicate that he knows every spell in FHG, cheesy or not.

Every TYPE of magic, not every spell.

[Gary]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Agent X
Where are you getting this business in the ground rules meaning there is no restraint in how to use variable power pools?

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Doctor Destroyer versus Takofanes
We've all seen the recent flood of comic-book character matchups posited on this forum. While certainly fun and fodder for lively speculation and debate, all these comparisons suffer to some extent from the inconsistent portrayal of these characters' abilities in comics over the years, and subjective impressions of what they can do. Now that isn't as much of a problem for characters from the Champions Universe: fully statted out as they are in our beloved HERO System, you can readily see what they're capable of and how they compare to each other. Ah, but for the more versatile superbeings, tricked out in Power Frameworks and with arrays of Skills, interpreting those comparisons is an art in itself.

So, I thought it would be interesting to see Champs fans' take on how some matchups would stack up. IMHO there could be no more appropriate contest than between the two most personally devastating and diametrically opposed megalomaniacs in the CU to date:

IN THIS CORNER: The most advanced scientific mind in the world. The villain feared like no other on Earth. Deity to the Javangari. The Butcher of Detroit! The technological Shiva! The one, the only

DOCTOR DESTROYER!


AND IN THIS CORNER: He gave his name to an entire age of history. His sorcery and his evil are unrivalled. Lord of Undead, Master of Demons. The Ravager of Men! The Archlich! You know him, you loathe him:

TAKOFANES, THE UNDYING LORD!


Gentlemen, come out swinging.

Where is there anywhere in this description stating that VPPs are going to be limited to not allow defenses?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
That's why I choose the FHG. Those spells are the primary spell basis for the Turakian Age. The spells in the FHG are the ones which would have been used in Takofane's time, so I would base "new" spells for Takofane off of the ones he is familiar with.

Cool. I don't own the FHG. Query: How do you account for the point made in Takofanes' description that he isn't as powerful as he was in the Turakian Age? In other words, how would that be reflected in his use of spells from the FHG?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Where is there anywhere in this description stating that VPPs are going to be limited to not allow defenses?

Where is it stated that you can ignore common sense restrictions on the use of variable power pools in this discussion? If variable power pools can be abused to our heart's content then it just comes down to who goes first because I can guarantee that I can come up with crap in that Gadget Pool that can "one punch" anybody.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Every TYPE of magic, not every spell.

What's the difference? As Monolith pointed out, FHG is the basis for the Turakanian Age. And Tak has Turakanian Theurgy 25- which may be weaker than his Necromancy 30-, but I think we can all agree that 25- with a skill roll (up to 29- with levels) is quite a respectable number.

Why wouldn't someone with 29- skill roll know every spell?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Where is it stated that you can ignore common sense restrictions on the use of variable power pools in this discussion? If variable power pools can be abused to our heart's content then it just comes down to who goes first because I can guarantee that I can come up with crap in that Gadget Pool that can "one punch" anybody.

Then DD is violating common sense restrictions when he adds +15 mental defense. I think most people would agree that 20 hardened mental defense is enough already.

And if neither side is adding any extra personal defenses, Tak is going to cut through DD like a hot knife through butter with a +59 mental illusion/mind control. (He'll probably do so anyway with "only" a +44 result).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Cool. I don't own the FHG. Query: How do you account for the point made in Takofanes' description that he isn't as powerful as he was in the Turakian Age? In other words, how would that be reflected in his use of spells from the FHG?

Tak probably had a 200-300 pt pool during that age.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
As I said, that construct was only in response to the very cheesy and unbalancing maneuver known as Rapid Fire. If we both agree not to use Rapid Fire, I wouldn't use that power.

And it's not just this thread that I'm objecting to Rapid Fire. There's a whole 100+ thread in Hero System Discussion where I'm arguing against the maneuver.

Go argue about Rapid Fire in that thread. If you want me to give up a perfectly good maneuver, I would appreciate it if you toned down your metagaming and cheese limitation/advantage power pool selections.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
Cool. I don't own the FHG. Query: How do you account for the point made in Takofanes' description that he isn't as powerful as he was in the Turakian Age? In other words, how would that be reflected in his use of spells from the FHG?

The are quite a few spells in the FHG over 150 Active Points. I would think that each of those spells would need to be relearned/re-researched by Takofane before he could even cast the less powerful versions of them. For example, you would expect that Takofane would have the ability to summon a Demon Prince as Kal-Torak could, but the weakest Demon Prince is 918 points, far below the ability for Takofane to summon (184 AP power unless he maxes out his AID for the spell he cannot do it). So from that standpoint Takofane would need to relearn the spells to summon lesser Demons instead of Princes.

I personally doubt that Takofane would have any spells with Gestures or Incantations on them, or at the most not more than one or the other of those Limitations, as he was that age's Sauron and would have scoffed at lesser mage's need to use such limitations. I would give him access to all the spell choices within the book, he would just not use as many Limitations as lesser mages would, imo.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
What's the difference? As Monolith pointed out, FHG is the basis for the Turakanian Age. And Tak has Turakanian Theurgy 25- which may be weaker than his Necromancy 30-, but I think we can all agree that 25- with a skill roll (up to 29- with levels) is quite a respectable number.

Why wouldn't someone with 29- skill roll know every spell?

They didn't use the word "lack" for no reason, or the word "different" in their description of his magic.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
The are quite a few spells in the FHG over 150 Active Points. I would think that each of those spells would need to be relearned/re-researched by Takofane before he could even cast the less powerful versions of them. For example, you would expect that Takofane would have the ability to summon a Demon Prince as Kal-Torak could, but the weakest Demon Prince is 918 points, far below the ability for Takofane to summon (184 AP power unless he maxes out his AID for the spell he cannot do it). So from that standpoint Takofane would need to relearn the spells to summon lesser Demons instead of Princes.

I personally doubt that Takofane would have any spells with Gestures or Incantations on them, or at the most not more than one or the other of those Limitations, as he was that age's Sauron and would have scoffed at lesser mage's need to use such limitations. I would give him access to all the spell choices within the book, he would just not use as many Limitations as lesser mages would, imo.

Sounds reasonable (he says not having a list of the spells in front of him).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Go argue about Rapid Fire in that thread. If you want me to give up a perfectly good maneuver, I would appreciate it if you toned down your metagaming and cheese limitation/advantage power pool selections.

If it's a perfectly good maneuver for you, it's a perfectly good maneuver for me.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
They didn't use the word "lack" for no reason, or the word "different" in their description of his magic.

He knows "virtually all" forms of magic, and he has a 29- skill roll with the most pertinent. In necromancy, he has a 34- roll which means he's a terror, but nobody can argue that he isn't respectable with the other spells in FHG.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Then DD is violating common sense restrictions when he adds +15 mental defense. I think most people would agree that 20 hardened mental defense is enough already.

This is probably one of the worst examples you could have used to argue against Dr. Destroyer for buying defenses in his gadget pool. Dr. Destroyer's old running buddy, Menton, is what that defense is for and 20 hardened mental defense is definitely not enough against that guy. If you wish to argue against the mental defense, you should remember that it is bought 15 points of mental defense, +10 ponts of mental defense against Menton and Mentalla. Sorta points to the reasoning behind having that in the Gadget Pool.

Originally posted by Gary
And if neither side is adding any extra personal defenses, Tak is going to cut through DD like a hot knife through butter with a +59 mental illusion/mind control. (He'll probably do so anyway with "only" a +44 result).

Considering that you ought to use the example Mind Control attack from CKC, it would be a marginal result over, if it hit, which is a big if, and would trip DD's psych lim.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
If it's a perfectly good maneuver for you, it's a perfectly good maneuver for me.

Perfectly good maneuver for Takofanes' example attacks and attacks built along those guidelines, yes. It's not the maneuver I'm concerned about. It's the lack of restraint you show in character design.