It's Hard to get d20 junkies to try HERO System

[shinrin]

I recently started a Fantasy Hero game with two of my friends. One of them usually GM's our d20 DnD games. We recently finished up a campaign and he really wanted to play a game. So I volunteered to run a Fantasy Hero game. They made characters and I have run 2 sessions already and they have had fun.

The problem is our other friends "don't want to learn a new game system" and only want to play d20 DnD. One of them even said "I don't get trying to play another game that is just another way of playing DnD."

What gets me is that they are making judgements without even having tried to play the HERO system. It just seems narrow-minded to me.

d20 is okay, and the beauty of it is that you can make a character quickly. The downside is the rapid xp gain and exponential character power gain. Hero system characters while taking longer to make, at least enables a slow xp progression and enable you to make very personalized characters that aren't cookie-cutter type characters as in DnD (By this I mean that all characters of a certain class and level all get the exact same abilities, only only rela difference being player chosen Feats)

Has anyone else had problems geeting d20 die-hards to play HERO?

[Derek Hiemforth]

My advice is simply to stick to it. Players want to game. Eventually, they'll play whatever someone is running. Especially if the two players you have now enjoy it, they'll eventually convert the others with tales of how much fun they're missing out on.

[Chaosliege]

We're having the same prpblem in our group. We play mostly Champions, but we have played just about every game out there. For fantasy, It's always been D&D. My budy recently bought the new Fantasy Hero book and want to try it out. I'm all for it, but we're having a hard time convincing the others to play. The worst part is, everyone in our gaming group already knows Hero system, so it wouldn't even be that bad to convert to Fantasy. My advice is to ambush them. Tell them you're going to run a new D&D game and ask them what kind of characters they want and have them made in Hero System when they show up.

[Spence]

I've seen it with other systems too. And I've done it. It's called justifying all that money you spent. Old AD&D die hards wouldn't try other "inferior" systems. If they did and the other system was better and needed less books, how could they justify spending the US GNP on AD&D books? Same with the d20 stuff. If they try Hero and realize it is actually a better system and you really do only need the basic book, how would they justify all that money spent on d20?

[tkdguy]

I had a hard time understanding the Hero system at first, having a mostly AD&D/MERP background. The difference was I wanted to learn other systems. I learned to like Hero after I got used to it because of its flexibility. Frankly, I'm not all that impressed by the d20 system. It's not bad, but the old AD&D system was much better IMO. I enjoyed Rolemaster, but it was vey complex, and my friends didn't like it much.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Spence
I've seen it with other systems too. And I've done it. It's called justifying all that money you spent. Old AD&D die hards wouldn't try other "inferior" systems. If they did and the other system was better and needed less books, how could they justify spending the US GNP on AD&D books? Same with the d20 stuff. If they try Hero and realize it is actually a better system and you really do only need the basic book, how would they justify all that money spent on d20?

They could justify it the same way I do.....
By using it as either source material or as material for a direct conversion. In fact the idea of a straight conversion would be the way to go IMO. A diehard d20 nut will probably want to try something vaguely familiar. Why not try a HERO based version of their 8th level lawful good paladin written up in HERO? They get to see some of the differences right away, when they realize that due to psych lims and such, the game becomes much more realistic. I think that most would jump at the chance to play again once they'd tried.

I don't think the problem lies with the game system and the "where did my money go" justification. I think it mainly lies with the maturity level of the players.

My apologies if any of this has already been covered in this thread.

[Killer Shrike]

Ive converted many people from D&D to the HERO System. Some take to it better than others. Check out www.killershrike.com for some notes on how Ive done this; both AD&D 2e and 3e Conversion docs are provided.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by shinrin
I recently started a Fantasy Hero game with two of my friends. One of them usually GM's our d20 DnD games. We recently finished up a campaign and he really wanted to play a game. So I volunteered to run a Fantasy Hero game. They made characters and I have run 2 sessions already and they have had fun.

The problem is our other friends "don't want to learn a new game system" and only want to play d20 DnD. One of them even said "I don't get trying to play another game that is just another way of playing DnD."

What gets me is that they are making judgements without even having tried to play the HERO system. It just seems narrow-minded to me.

d20 is okay, and the beauty of it is that you can make a character quickly. The downside is the rapid xp gain and exponential character power gain. Hero system characters while taking longer to make, at least enables a slow xp progression and enable you to make very personalized characters that aren't cookie-cutter type characters as in DnD (By this I mean that all characters of a certain class and level all get the exact same abilities, only only rela difference being player chosen Feats)

Has anyone else had problems geeting d20 die-hards to play HERO?

First, you have to drop the "my system is better than your system" 'tude.

Drop the "Junkies" comments and anything like that. The moment you start dissing on their game, you piss them off and close their mind from anything else you might have to say.

Most people that really like D&D do so because they Understand D&D. They know how to tweak the system exactly how they want to, which Feats/Spells/Powers are the best, which tactics to use vs what monster.

And, when switching to a new system, they lose that familiarity/edge. And all that time memorizing information.

And, that's a scary prospect.

So, you might need to sit one of them down, in private, and show them the familiarities. "Look, this is the 3.0/3.5 combat system. Look at how it compares to Hero. Look at the 4th edition book (if you've got it). Where do you think Monte Cook got these ideas from?" Show them the Talents that look like Feats. Show them the Skills System. Show them the Powers/Spells system.

Emphasize the similarities, not the differences. Don't play up the "you can create exactly what you want". They know how to create what they want in D&D. Or else they wouldn't be playing it.

Give them the option to realize how much they can do with the Hero system that's the same.

Create their D&D character in Hero, show them the similarities. Once they've got a handle from which to work, then you start with the differences, and the flexibility.

D

[Greatwyrm]

I don't know about "ambushing" them with a new game, but try a couple of sample one-shots. Make some pre-gens, maybe with some player input, and run a sample game. A demonstration of the product is always a good selling technique.

Show them that all their favorite spells and character abilities can be easily made in the HERO system.

Show them how easy it is to customize and personalize those same powers.

Show them that combat can be as realistic or abstract as you want it to be.

Show them that you can put together a character just as quickly if you use the templates/package deals as a guide.

Show them that you can make your magic system work however you want and still have it be reasonably balanced (this is usually a sore spot for big d20 gamers, myself included).

Show them, show them, show them. Nobody likes being lectured, but gamers love to game.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
Nobody likes being lectured, but gamers love to game.

This goes back to what I mentioned earlier. Gamers will play whatever is being run, as long as it's good. They may say they want to play something else, but really, they just want to play. If it's a good game, and the ones who are playing in it already are having fun, the others will come around.

For example, my gaming group currently isn't doing any D&D games, but if someone started one and it was good, I'd play in it.

[Chris Goodwin]

I feel the same going the other way. I'm a Hero "junkie" and don't really care to try d20. Not because I think the system suxx0rs, but because there's so much to it. I don't have the spare time anymore to try to take in a complex, huge system like d20, not when I've got Hero, which I'm more than happy with. If I were a knowledgeable d20 player and happy with that system I just might feel the same way about Hero.

OTOH, if someone gave me pregen characters I might be willing to play with them. But I ain't got the time to sit trying to learn how to make effective characters, and I probably wouldn't make it a regular thing.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by shinrin

I recently started a Fantasy Hero game with two of my friends. One of them usually GM's our d20 DnD games. We recently finished up a campaign and he really wanted to play a game. So I volunteered to run a Fantasy Hero game. They made characters and I have run 2 sessions already and they have had fun.

Thats in my experience one of the best ways to get things going. Start a game, run it and have fun. Honestly, most gamers want to game and a surprising number of them don't want to work too hard at their play.

Originally posted by shinrin

The problem is our other friends "don't want to learn a new game system" and only want to play d20 DnD. One of them even said "I don't get trying to play another game that is just another way of playing DnD."

This might be a hint to a potential error on your part.

Face it, the mammoth hero book plus the even larger fantasy hero book and the notion of a rather complex chargen process with almost bey definition every campaign element being homebrew can be daunting to some who are really more interested in playing than learning new systems. (Frankly, i have players in my games who don't want to take the time to learn d20, preferring to spend their time playing and doing in character stuff.)

So pitching this new beastie at them for "another fantasy game" might not work too well. If i had a bunch who were happy with DND for fantasy and i wanted to run a different fantasy, I might try Midnight instead or UA, things closer to D20 but at the same time radically different in setting and style.

If i wanted to pitch a new game system, the primary focus for me would be to pitch the NEW GAME/CAMPAIGN and do everything i could to minimize the sticker shock of work they will have to do. I would make it a different genre game as well... figuring selling them on a fantasy game with different setting would be uphill given they like d20 fantasy already.

A scifi thing based on a series or stories they are interested in (Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, Earth Final Conflict, Mutant X) or maybe a modern fantasy/Scifi (X files, Buffy, Alias) would be my first start. If i could hook them on the game and setting, that would serve me well when i lowered the "new system" weight on them in the process.

Later on, after some year of play or so, if they got used to and liked HERO, then i would bring up the notion of running my next game as a fantasy using HERO, probably starting it as an overdinner discussion of neat fantasy characters i built.

learn from what they say, as opposed to just bashing it. You have not shown them there is a good reason to do fantasy in HERO.

Originally posted by shinrin

What gets me is that they are making judgements without even having tried to play the HERO system. It just seems narrow-minded to me.

Their decision is that they are happy with DND d20 for fantasy. if they are happy with it for fantasy gaming, can you really have such a hard time understanding why they would balk at devoting the time and effort to learn the HERo system to play fantasy? look at the HERO5 and FH books (and realize they are not sufficient so you need another book or a homebrew setting) and ask yourself "self, if i am Ok with DND fantasy, why should i take on this new project? Self. if i am hapopy with DND why should i stop the DND games we play weekly for months to start trying to learn this mammoth math HERO thingy?"

Originally posted by shinrin

d20 is okay, and the beauty of it is that you can make a character quickly. The downside is the rapid xp gain and exponential character power gain.

These are features and both are in control of the GM.

To stop rapid avdnacement: cut down on the XP awards in your game. Better yet, do like i did for my recently concluded DnD game of three years running: dont give any Xp. Base advancement on sessions... at a certain point just tell your players they level up. I did it about every six sessions (2 months real time) at a convenient break in the action. Over just under three years they advanced from levels 2 through levels 15. They enjoyed it immensly. (We games three sessions per month.)

To stop geometric power increase, start the game at higher levels. Say you start your game at 6th level with gaining a level every two months real time. The characters start as competent 6th level heroes and by the end of the first full year of gaming they are at 12th. Whie 12th is easily twice as powerful as 6th, the difference in power is still not anywhere near the difference between say a first level character and a seventh level character.

imagine the differnece bwteen 150 pt FH characters and 50 pt FH characters. Thats what 1st level vs 7th level is like. FH starts its characters at 150 (or used to) and then advancement is slow. if you want similar style play in DND, start the characters at 6th and level them up slow.

Originally posted by shinrin

Hero system characters while taking longer to make, at least enables a slow xp progression and enable you to make very personalized characters that aren't cookie-cutter type characters as in DnD (By this I mean that all characters of a certain class and level all get the exact same abilities, only only rela difference being player chosen Feats)

Not to poke fun at your comparison but would you perhaps agree that most 150 pt FH characters designed to be heavy armor melee fighters share a lot of similarities to each other?

By comparing "the characters one can make in FH" with "the characters of an already CHOSEN class and level in DND" you are obviously going to see more variety in the FH set because you have not made as many decisions.

If you want to compare breadth of characters, compare FH 150 with the swath of characters you can have in DND by sixth level NOT limited to a single preselected class but considering all the classes, multiclasses, feats skills and so forth.

What you will find is the Fh has more options even still but that is before adding in a setting. In your Fh game, you might well see a standard city guard suddenly developing mind reading magic as not normally appropriate... something the PCs should not expect to see happen all the time. So suddenly, that option is no longer available... one down, plenty to go. A wide open buy whatever you want in whatever combo FH world will indeed present a lot more options for your 150/6th level guy, but it will also be fairly much indicative of a world just as chaotic and lacking rhyme and reason and a sense of "what can i expect" as any "lacks a setting and theme" game could be.

Originally posted by shinrin

Has anyone else had problems geeting d20 die-hards to play HERO?

back in the day, when i brought people into FH (three or four campaigns runningnover a year each under HERO4) or into HERO for scifi or supers (many more than FH) the huge honking monster of a bear to overcome was the system. going from GENREIC systems like DnD or Vampire or Traveller where much of the rules were "sensible" from the genre and setting to a mammoth build everything from scratch new paradigm was tough. it got tougher all those little nuts and bolts times where the genre was folded to match the system, everytime we were nudged towards saying "well we cannot quite do that..." did not help.

The tricks i mentioned above (use a setting that intrigues them and which is different from what they are happy with, do a ton of up front work to add a "interface layer" of setting specific materials between them and the game system like prepackaged schools of magic with their own rules and pick lists of options prefabbed, and even rewriting the scale so you aren't talking/buying "hexes" but feet or meters ) are all IMX a must for showing people there is a lot of fun to be had over here and without as much work as it seems.

[projecktzero]

Someone on these boards mentioned how you can lure DnD players to the Hero System by telling something along the lines of "how'd you like to create a Paladin that can lay-hands from the get go?" i.e. you don't have to wait several levels before you get that power. Kinda of talk up the open-ness and advantages of the system.

Sidekick, which sounds like Hero System In A Nutshell, will hopefully make it easier to get into the game. Just pick up the $10 Sidekick book. If you really like it, then get Fred. As a GM, I'll probably pick up a couple of copies of Sidekick, and give 'em away to players to remove the "it's so expensive" excuse.

BTW, I just finished reading Fantasy Hero. It's a breath of fresh air. I didn't feel constrained by the system. I felt fenced in with DnD. Granted D20 is much improved from 1st and 2nd Edition DnD, but the Hero System is the cream of the crop.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by projecktzero

BTW, I just finished reading Fantasy Hero. It's a breath of fresh air. I didn't feel constrained by the system. I felt fenced in with DnD.

I never felt fenced in by DND... its Ok to me for what it is, a high magic fantasy setting with two-three different takes on the specific campaign worlds. With the growing plethora of really good fantasy settings in D20 and the OGL cousins (Midnight standing tops in my current book, UA second, and with more like the upcoming Blue Rose RPG and much much much excitement from me at least for later this year the Black Company D20 rpg) i don't feel constrained at all.

[Steve Long]

Sidekick, which sounds like Hero System In A Nutshell, will hopefully make it easier to get into the game. Just pick up the $10 Sidekick book. If you really like it, then get Fred. As a GM, I'll probably pick up a couple of copies of Sidekick, and give 'em away to players to remove the "it's so expensive" excuse.

That's pretty much exactly what SK is intended to do. We hope it succeeds.

If it does well, I have an idea for a sort of modular character creation project (i.e., slap together templates A, B, and C, and wham! character's pretty much done) that I may tackle in my spare time. But I'm not going to bother if there's no reason; I have too many other uses for my "copious" free time.

And of course, we've created a lot of other products designed to minimize the "burden" of learning and creating everything yourself on players. The FHG, for example, makes it easier for newcomers to get into playing an FH game. I've already seen that effect in my own gaming groups -- it lets people who want to play spellcasters, but not learn all the minutia of creating their own spells, to do so. And before long, they're poking around in the books wanting to learn how to create their own spells.