The Iron Age vs The Golden Age...The Authority vs The JSA

[zornwil]

PS - another, and separate thought.

I think that many people both tolerate and even enjoy the naivete of Silver Age comics and their upbeat portrayal of mankind because Silver Age comics (even ones done today, often) have an overt attempt NOT to portray reality. And they do not make versimillitude a major priority. Iron Age comics all too often claim to be representing reality, which sets up an immediate "BS" response, at least of course for those that do a poor job of representing reality. If an Iron Age comic is honest - such as Lobo, which of course makes no claim of being a commentary on the human condition - in being a violent and/or sexual fantasy, just as Silver Age comics were often honest in being pro-society power fantasies, then I think it deserves no more and no less respect than its Silver Age counterpart.

[name_tamer]

Part of becoming an adult involves accepting that it is possible for someone to disagree with you on an issue and yet remain a sane and moral person; painting your political opponents as demons is childish, and ultimately reveals a lack of faith in democracy.

But as this is now NGD territory, I'll stop here.

You're wrong and therefore insane and immoral (and demonic)!

Seriously, I couldn't agree more.

[casualplayer]

Don't mistake this for liking any of the non-Ellis (or non-Ennis!) Authority but you guys are forgetting one thing.

Radio-telepathy.

The Authority have Mind Link. And that means their tactician (Midnighter) gets to formulate plans and disseminate them before the JSA's tactician (Hawkman or Mr. Terrific depending on incarnation) gets to vocalise his.

The teams appear across a field a la Contest of Champions. They eye each other for threat potential, and there is no goofy "You're a comic character in my world" insider knowledge. Initial scouting report:

AUTHORITY seen by JSA
Apollo-physically powerful, radiates power, probably hovering giving away that he can fly, high threat
Doctor-looks kinda like Brainwave Jr., probable mentalist, physically unimpressive
Engineer-where's that girl's clothes? looks like Robotwoman, maybe fix her up with Bob Crane
Hawksmoor-casual clothes, no shoes, built and confident, cybernetic martial-artist?
Jenny Whatever-eyes crackling energy giving away her schtick, JSA knows that age doesn't correspond to threat (Atom, JJ Thunder, Johnny Thunder, Stargirl, etc.)
Midnighter-Batman snapped, big bulls-eye painted on his forehead
Swift-wings Pffft, whatever! JSA knows wings

JSA Golden seen by Authority
Alan Scott/GL-wears green, orange and purple and still looks ominous, he's a cape guy-they're always trouble
Atom-he's short, burly, nimble and human
Batman golden-once upon a time Batman was just a man.
Dr. Fate-crap, another cape guy! Doctor, this one's yours
Dr. Midnite-blind and human, not a factor
Hawkman-the broad, hairy chest is nice, the medieval weaponry seems out of place, Swift will want her shot at him in a dogfight (birdfight?)
Jay/Flash-someone order flowers? signs point to a speedster, but Wildstorm doesn't have any speedsters on this scale
Superman golden-still another cape guy! Midnighter will want to get this boy scout dirty, just to prove he can

If the environment isn't a city, Jack Hawksmoor vomits, goes fetal and whimpers. If it's Jenny Sparks and there isn't ambient power, her usefulness is limited.

Atom and Dr. Midnite brought a knife to a gunfight. They may not be of any use, and they may do something crazy brave that rallies the JSA. This is Flash golden so he doesn't have access to any damn stupid Mark Waid Speed Force. Jay still believes physics works.

As observed before, the Authority fights dumb. Midnighter will quickly figure out that the brunt of Fate's power is in his helmet, GL only has so much juice to work with, Atom, Batman and Dr. Midnite are no serious threat to his team, Flash is faster than him, Hawkman can't fly as fast as Swift and then he will take a poke at Superman just to prove he can! Several broken knuckles later he may use his brain.

Hawkman will sic Flash on the Doctor. Bam! Zoom! To the moon, Doris. Atom and Dr. Midnite will make sure the Doctor stays down.

Batman homes in on Jack Hawksmoor. The Gotham Avenger gets to fight the God of Gotham itself. These visuals make me excited. Batman can't really reach Jack but he keeps him well occupied. Jack never expected someone could be stealthy in a city under his control.

GL hits Apollo with a giant boxing glove that could knock down a brick wall. No effect. Superman follows with a right cross, with considerably more effect. The tussle starts. GL vectors off towards the Engineer.

We have green flaming blades versus nano-tech. The Engineer can't really hurt GL but she can incapacitate him. GL golden still thinks he is human! Dr. Fate lends a hand, blasts her with a ankh beam and crashes her systems. Dr. Fate is like sand in your underwear.

Jenny sparks up a conversation and the recovered GL does his Thunderbolt-grounding trick causing her to fizzle. He decants her into a genie bottle and looks to see who else needs help.

Then Midnighter pulls his head out. He shares his lethal intelligence while cleaning up Atom and Dr. Midnite. Booting the Doctor to his feet he prods the junkie into confronting Dr. Fate. This allows the Engineer to reboot, infiltrate under Fate's helmet and causes Kent Nelson to cast it away. Things start to go poorly.

Superman golden really can't take Apollo, but it will be a good fight. Supes just barely learned that he can fly for Pete's sake!

If the Doctor is up and running he can divine and create the nemesis to all of the JSA. Kryptonite, I can do that. Wood, piece of cake. However he looks like versatile, irritating power guy and all of the JSA will put effort into putting him down and keeping him that way. Hawkman will paste him with his mace if neccessary.

I think the JSA would take the fight but only thru teamwork. The power levels don't come close.

[Twilight]

Don't mistake this for liking any of the non-Ellis (or non-Ennis!) Authority but you guys are forgetting one thing.

Radio-telepathy.

The Authority have Mind Link. And that means their tactician (Midnighter) gets to formulate plans and disseminate them before the JSA's tactician (Hawkman or Mr. Terrific depending on incarnation) gets to vocalise his.

The teams appear across a field a la Contest of Champions. They eye each other for threat potential, and there is no goofy "You're a comic character in my world" insider knowledge. Initial scouting report:

AUTHORITY seen by JSA
Apollo-physically powerful, radiates power, probably hovering giving away that he can fly, high threat
Doctor-looks kinda like Brainwave Jr., probable mentalist, physically unimpressive
Engineer-where's that girl's clothes? looks like Robotwoman, maybe fix her up with Bob Crane
Hawksmoor-casual clothes, no shoes, built and confident, cybernetic martial-artist?
Jenny Whatever-eyes crackling energy giving away her schtick, JSA knows that age doesn't correspond to threat (Atom, JJ Thunder, Johnny Thunder, Stargirl, etc.)
Midnighter-Batman snapped, big bulls-eye painted on his forehead
Swift-wings Pffft, whatever! JSA knows wings

JSA Golden seen by Authority
Alan Scott/GL-wears green, orange and purple and still looks ominous, he's a cape guy-they're always trouble
Atom-he's short, burly, nimble and human
Batman golden-once upon a time Batman was just a man.
Dr. Fate-crap, another cape guy! Doctor, this one's yours
Dr. Midnite-blind and human, not a factor
Hawkman-the broad, hairy chest is nice, the medieval weaponry seems out of place, Swift will want her shot at him in a dogfight (birdfight?)
Jay/Flash-someone order flowers? signs point to a speedster, but Wildstorm doesn't have any speedsters on this scale
Superman golden-still another cape guy! Midnighter will want to get this boy scout dirty, just to prove he can

If the environment isn't a city, Jack Hawksmoor vomits, goes fetal and whimpers. If it's Jenny Sparks and there isn't ambient power, her usefulness is limited.

Atom and Dr. Midnite brought a knife to a gunfight. They may not be of any use, and they may do something crazy brave that rallies the JSA. This is Flash golden so he doesn't have access to any damn stupid Mark Waid Speed Force. Jay still believes physics works.

As observed before, the Authority fights dumb. Midnighter will quickly figure out that the brunt of Fate's power is in his helmet, GL only has so much juice to work with, Atom, Batman and Dr. Midnite are no serious threat to his team, Flash is faster than him, Hawkman can't fly as fast as Swift and then he will take a poke at Superman just to prove he can! Several broken knuckles later he may use his brain.

Hawkman will sic Flash on the Doctor. Bam! Zoom! To the moon, Doris. Atom and Dr. Midnite will make sure the Doctor stays down.

Batman homes in on Jack Hawksmoor. The Gotham Avenger gets to fight the God of Gotham itself. These visuals make me excited. Batman can't really reach Jack but he keeps him well occupied. Jack never expected someone could be stealthy in a city under his control.

GL hits Apollo with a giant boxing glove that could knock down a brick wall. No effect. Superman follows with a right cross, with considerably more effect. The tussle starts. GL vectors off towards the Engineer.

We have green flaming blades versus nano-tech. The Engineer can't really hurt GL but she can incapacitate him. GL golden still thinks he is human! Dr. Fate lends a hand, blasts her with a ankh beam and crashes her systems. Dr. Fate is like sand in your underwear.

Jenny sparks up a conversation and the recovered GL does his Thunderbolt-grounding trick causing her to fizzle. He decants her into a genie bottle and looks to see who else needs help.

Then Midnighter pulls his head out. He shares his lethal intelligence while cleaning up Atom and Dr. Midnite. Booting the Doctor to his feet he prods the junkie into confronting Dr. Fate. This allows the Engineer to reboot, infiltrate under Fate's helmet and causes Kent Nelson to cast it away. Things start to go poorly.

Superman golden really can't take Apollo, but it will be a good fight. Supes just barely learned that he can fly for Pete's sake!

If the Doctor is up and running he can divine and create the nemesis to all of the JSA. Kryptonite, I can do that. Wood, piece of cake. However he looks like versatile, irritating power guy and all of the JSA will put effort into putting him down and keeping him that way. Hawkman will paste him with his mace if neccessary.

I think the JSA would take the fight but only thru teamwork. The power levels don't come close.

Hard to do any of those things when the JSA have them stomped into the floor. Dr. Fate and Supes mop them up by themselves in a few minutes. Teamwork and perserverence wins out over stupid fighting and overrated JLA wannabes like the Authority.

Dr. Fate has the power of a god for starters, even if the Authority does manage to figure out his power comes from his helmet it's unlikely any of them can get it off of him and he can likely take out AT LEAST the Doctor and the Engineer before they get that information.

Since this is the Pre-Crisis JSA we're speaking about since you're discussing Superman and Batman as team members, then we're talking about Superman at his Pre-Crisis power levels when he MOVED THE ENTIRE PLANET ON A REGULAR BASIS. Not only can he take Apollo in a fight, he can do so without working up a sweat and probably can take down the rest of the Authority by himself.

Plus, the Pre-Crisis JSA included the Spectre as a member. The very wrath of God. He'd see that the Authority was just a bunch of immoral sinners, murderers who rejoice in it and sully the ideal of justice, and they'd take a one way trip to Hell. Do not pass go, do not collect one hundred dollars.

In reality, the Authority's power levels don't come close to the JSA's.

[Hawksmoor]

They were sort of a paramilitary organization of superhuman UN peacekeepers IIRC. There was more than one team that handled different types of operations. Most of the members of The Authority were formerly members of Stormwatch Black, I believe?

Most. Jenny, Hawksmoor and Swift

Midnighter and Apollo were from a beta test of Bendix's Stormwatch

The Doctor and the Engineer are the *second* generation of a group of Authority-esque hyperbeings that for a few hours held the world...until Stormwatch stomped them and their leader, Icon, did a Megascale flight movethrough on the Stormwatch Satelite while the planetary scale Force Wall was up.

:splatter:

[Hugh Neilson]

JSA Golden seen by Authority
Alan Scott/GL-wears green, orange and purple and still looks ominous, he's a cape guy-they're always trouble
Atom-he's short, burly, nimble and human
Batman golden-once upon a time Batman was just a man.
Dr. Fate-crap, another cape guy! Doctor, this one's yours
Dr. Midnite-blind and human, not a factor
Hawkman-the broad, hairy chest is nice, the medieval weaponry seems out of place, Swift will want her shot at him in a dogfight (birdfight?)
Jay/Flash-someone order flowers? signs point to a speedster, but Wildstorm doesn't have any speedsters on this scale
Superman golden-still another cape guy! Midnighter will want to get this boy scout dirty, just to prove he can

If this is the golden age JSA, where are the Sandman (big deal!), Spectre (non-sarcasm Big Deal), Johnny Thunder (joined before Dr. Midnight), Hourman and Starman (joined with Dr. Midnight)? Three of these (counting Thunderbolt) are heavy hitters. Hourman could also be considered such if he has his Hour operational.

Also, Sandman, Atom and Dr. Midnight all wear capes (as do Starman, Hourman and the Spectre) - if that's a presumed sign of a heavy hitter, why does the Authority only apply it to the ones who really are heavy hitters?

That assumes about All-Star #15 or so. Later on, the JSA adds a few more low powered Supers (Wildcat, Mr. Terrific, Black Canary). and Atom becomes super-strong ("Atomic Punch"). If we move into the '70's, they get to add Power Girl.

If the environment isn't a city, Jack Hawksmoor vomits, goes fetal and whimpers. If it's Jenny Sparks and there isn't ambient power, her usefulness is limited.

Comic Style would somehow allow her to tap into GL, T-Bolt or Starman's power sources.

Atom and Dr. Midnite brought a knife to a gunfight. They may not be of any use, and they may do something crazy brave that rallies the JSA.

I don't follow the Authority - can they all see in the dark? The ability to blind an opponent is, IMO, vastly under-rated. Even if Midnite can't hurt the target, he may be able to delay them long enough for JSA heavy hitters to gang up on an Authority heavy hitter or two.

I think your early line about one of the non-power JSA'ers doing something crazy stupid that rallies the JSA hits the nail on the head.

To Superman's power level, the "Earth 2" Supes was often held to the lower Golden Age power level (Faster than a speeding bullet, not faster than light, for example). But Spectre, Fate, GL and Starman all had elements of Deus Ex Machina Man.

[casualplayer]

I went with just the JSAers that were mentioned in the poll post, and they were specifically mentioned as golden era. This is a Batman that fought in giant prop warehouses and a Superman that fought the Toyman. Spectre was specifically mentioned as not included. There were heaps of other exclusions (Wonder Woman!) but I went with what was given. And the JSA would still win.

Dr. Fate only has the full power of Nabu if he turns his body over to Nabu, and he doesn't like to do that. Nabu is reluctant to give it back.

Atom wears a Robin-cape. Doesn't count toward being a cape guy. He's awesome, but not a cape guy. And since it is Atom golden, he doesn't have his Atomic strength yet.

The whole WWII JSA was strong enough that they had to come up with a plot device to keep them from ending WWII in a long weekend. They ain't no pikers. But the Doctor, coherent and with time, is nasty to deal with.

Modern JSA wins this in a landslide (provided by Sand.) 70's JSA, with Power Girl and Earth-moving Superman, wins this in about 10 seconds. JSA golden wins but it's a tough fight.

[Hugh Neilson]

I went with just the JSAers that were mentioned in the poll post, and they were specifically mentioned as golden era.

For those, like myself, who don't have that memorized, here is the list from Post #1

The JSA. Roll call: The Golden Age Superman, Dr. Fate , Green Lantern (Alan Scott), The Flash (Jay Garrick), Wildcat, Atom, Hourman, Starman, and The Golden Age Batman

They were also noted as "All Star Sqaudron", but I know Hawkman was part of that lineup, and the GA Bats and Supes made few, if any, appearances. The lineup itself seems more Silver Age JLA/JSA team-up inspired (Hourman hardly appearedin the golden age JSA, and was replaced with Starman, so they never appeared in the same issue; Wildcat apeared only once or twice; Superman And Batman were Honorary members from the outset and had, I believe, 2 appearances).

In any case, your listing still overlooks Starman and Hourman and adds Dr. Midnite and Hawkman.

Dr. Fate only has the full power of Nabu if he turns his body over to Nabu, and he doesn't like to do that. Nabu is reluctant to give it back.

This was retconned in, and did not exist for "Golden Age Fate". I The question of which helmet he's wearing (full = mystic powers; half = physical powers) is a key one, as he changed helmets in the Golden Age. The half helm wasn't used again until it was explained in All Star Squadron. But, by the time Fate went to the half helmet, Supes was powering up.

[Fanboy geeks? No, I don't see any, do you? ]