Mage spells

[Vorvodoss]

Hey all. Had something to throw your way.

I have a mage in my upcoming game and I'm trying to decide between a skill based magic system and a MANA based system (powers based). Here are the problems I'm facing:

1. Skill based -- I'm not sure how this works and could use some pointers. Does the mage have ONE skill usually that governs all magic or do you suggest multiple skills for each spell? Can this still cost MANA (modified END)?

2. Powers -- I'm afraid this might make my mage way too powerful. The powers seem a little more potent than skills.

As a general question, I find that a beginning mage character would have a LOT of spells because they aren't a skill based character. This is very different than I'm used to (coming from d20 DnD style) and I could use some input. I want my mage to be able to "discover" spells later but I'm not sure how to do that either (without forcing the mage to spend xp on it whether they want to or not).

Thanks all.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss
1. Skill based -- I'm not sure how this works and could use some pointers. Does the mage have ONE skill usually that governs all magic or do you suggest multiple skills for each spell? Can this still cost MANA (modified END)?

2. Powers -- I'm afraid this might make my mage way too powerful. The powers seem a little more potent than skills.

Skills as spells has been very uncommon historically, and in fact was never offered as an option until the most recent edition of Fantasy Hero. To answer your questions:

1. If you're going to make spellcasting work through Skills alone rather than by buying Powers, I'd advise using either multiple Skills for each school (or having "verb-noun" skills such as Throw, Shape, Create and Fire, Water, Light) or using a single skill for each spell. There's no reason they can't cost Endurance or Mana.

2. As always, your mileage may vary. It's usually not too bad if you require certain Limitations on them (usually Requires Skill Roll: Magic and -1 or more other Limitations) and if you require characters to pay full cost for each spell. If you get into Multipowers, you can see more power inflation.

As a general question, I find that a beginning mage character would have a LOT of spells because they aren't a skill based character. This is very different than I'm used to (coming from d20 DnD style) and I could use some input. I want my mage to be able to "discover" spells later but I'm not sure how to do that either (without forcing the mage to spend xp on it whether they want to or not).

Wizards tend to be at least as skill based as other characters, having Magic Skill as well as others like Cryptography (need to be able to decipher weird magical texts), Inventor (Spell Research), various KSs (Herbalism, famous mages, schools of magic, classic spells), SCs (anything relating to a wizard's favorite type of spells), PSs (either PS: Wizard, or various PSs related to creating magic items such as PS: Enchanter, PS: Blacksmith, PS: Woodworker and the like). Not to mention at least a Weapon Familiarity and a level or two with it in case the spells fail.

[Herosaurus Rex]

My preferrence is for magic based on skill rolls and separate skill rolls for different schools/types of magic. Of course each spell is built independently as a power but with the standard required elements like gestures, incantations, concentration, foci, etc...

You might want to consider the Fantasy Hero Grimoire as a resource because it is an excellent source of ideas, if nothing else.

[Vorvodoss]

It just dawned on me that I put this post in the general discussion forum. If an of the mods see it, could you move it to the FH forum for me? Thanks.

I messed around with it a little after seeing the comments here but have run into a new quandry. I wonder, what should the skill roll be? In other words, I have a power called Magic Missile. I'm requiring a skill roll in the skill Evocation to use the spell. Magic Missile has the limitation RSR. What should the Evocation skill roll be set at? Since I made a custom skill, I wasn't sure what the skill roll should be defaulted as.

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss
Since I made a custom skill, I wasn't sure what the skill roll should be defaulted as.

I think you'd just use the standard cost for the Power skill (3/2 IIRC). Generally, you also get a -1 penalty for each 10 AP in the power. It may be RP, but I think it's AP.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss
I messed around with it a little after seeing the comments here but have run into a new quandry. I wonder, what should the skill roll be? In other words, I have a power called Magic Missile. I'm requiring a skill roll in the skill Evocation to use the spell. Magic Missile has the limitation RSR. What should the Evocation skill roll be set at? Since I made a custom skill, I wasn't sure what the skill roll should be defaulted as.

You can choose. Usually RSR uses the Power skill, of which Magic is usually a variant. Evocation would be a variant as well. It would probably be based on INT, unless there's a reason for it to be based on something else.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss
It just dawned on me that I put this post in the general discussion forum. If an of the mods see it, could you move it to the FH forum for me? Thanks.

I messed around with it a little after seeing the comments here but have run into a new quandry. I wonder, what should the skill roll be? In other words, I have a power called Magic Missile. I'm requiring a skill roll in the skill Evocation to use the spell. Magic Missile has the limitation RSR. What should the Evocation skill roll be set at? Since I made a custom skill, I wasn't sure what the skill roll should be defaulted as.

Generally, make it an INT based skill as Wizards are generally supposed to be well educated and intelligent.

I prefer to base Magic Skill Rolls on Knowledge Skills so that the Scholar Enhancer can be used, and because Magical knowledge is generally depicted as learned via study and personal experience, ala a Knowledge Skill. But I have used Power Skills and even (in the Sortilege Magic system) Interaction Skills too. You can basically use any kind of skill you want.

Also, for High Magic using a Magic VPP of some form, I generally prefer to use Magic Skill Rolls not on the casting of Spells, but rather on the learning of Spells to a "Known Spell List".

The most important thing is to accomplish flavorful styles of magic that are also roughly balanced against the abilities of non-spell casters built on similar points.

Personally, I use pretty specifically detailed guideline documents as to how different systems of Magic work, what they can and cant do, any limitations or other modifiers they must or must not have, and so on.

Default Magic System:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...tent/Magic.htm

Default Arcane System:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...aneMagic.shtml

Default Divine System:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...ivineMagic.htm


Aeldeneran:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...Packages.shtml

Sortilege:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...Packages.shtml

Elementalists:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...Packages.shtml

Wizards:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...Packages.shtml

Divinists:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...Packages.shtml

[Vorvodoss]

KillerShrike> thanks for that great list of magic systems. That's gonna be a big help as I customize my own list.

For everyone, this is such great advice. I didn't really see the Power skill and since I use HDv2 it was easy to rename it on the character sheet and connect it to the characteristic I wanted it connected to.

So here's what I'm thinking. I will have the player roll on the power skill associated with the type of spell (i.e. school). This reflects the mage's ability to remember what it is he's casting. If the roll fails, no dice. If the roll succeeds, the spell happens. Either way, the MANA (END) is lost and the mage loses his actions for that phase (I'm treating casting like an attack action except that 1/2 phase spells can be cast back to back with no penalty...these spells will be rare and requires a talent to do so). If the mage is being attacked or is in a rushed situation, there are penalties to his skill roll.

What do you guys think? Anything to add?

[Herosaurus Rex]

You might want to use the suggestion in the Fantasy Hero supplement which gives a modifer to the skill roll. Something like -1/10 active or -1/20 active if you are generous. Just sort of relates to the more powerful spells being much more difficult to cast.

[TheEmerged]

Actually, we toyed with a skill-based magic system (as in, used it for some experiments and a one shot but not a full campaign). We based it off the Ars Magicka system, with 15 skills divided into three divisions. It showed some promise, actually.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss
KillerShrike> thanks for that great list of magic systems. That's gonna be a big help as I customize my own list.

No problem; good luck with your system, and dont forget to post it when you are done

[Vorvodoss]

I will indeed post it. I'm not sure that it will be as detailed as the ones you include on your site but I will try to have it as detailed as possible. Currently in the works is a website devoted to my new game/campaign. I'll definitely post that when I get closer to having a copyrighted idea so you guys can all enjoy playing it.