Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Firewing, natch, is an emergency that in virtually any conceivable circumstance doesn't last longer than several minutes... either he's out by then, or his opponents are.

As a note -- when Firewing showed in our game, he caused some careless property damage... he didn't bother to use the door to enter the Mayor's office, he simply burned a hole in the window. And his Damage Shield caused some minor fires on the pedestrian walkways.

However, the character he challenged -- our flying brick, Horus-Re -- qutie simply played on Firewing's vanity and said that the best venue for their fight would be airborne combat at 10,000 feet, so that all of Millennium City could get a good view of the glorious spectacle. Firewing readily agreed to this, and they proceeded to spend the next two Turns pounding the snot outta each other... with precisely zero damage to the surroundings, as they were more than a mile and a half up in the air.

The fight was a tie by mutual KO, for the record. *g*


(The reason Firewing burnt his way into the mayor's office is because he didn't know Horus-Re's address, but did know he had an appointment with the mayor that morning.)

[Gary]

One thing about Jet fighters. They're *LOUD*. Even if they were at standoff range where Firewing couldn't see them, he would most likely be able to *hear* them and take precautions. Precautions such as the Damage Shield.

Also, if he can determine where the Jet is, he can attack effectively from 525" away, or about 1 kilometer. Not a great range when dealing with jets, but he's vastly more maneuverable and can avoid their attacks through a combination of Force Wall or evasive maneuvers. Also he can climb and dive much easier. He can operate at any altitude, which gives him a huge advantage over fighter jets which have limits on their altitude.

What is the attack level of a Hornet's missile? It would take a pretty decent missile to be able to harm Firewing.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I never said it was "my thread," just that I started it. I never asked you to stop posting - I appreciate your contribution, just as I appreciate Chuckg's.

But you're right. The animosity between you two has nothing to do with this thread. I'll ignore it in future and won't interfere between you two again.

Good Gravy, I give up LL. When I said it's not your thread I meant it is not your thread that is causing any problems. You may think of this thread as not "your" thread but that is the way I was referring to it. I was not making a comment about whose thread it was. I have never needed to make any such comments to you LL.

Just because I respond to Chuckg's animosity by pointing it out, I would hope you can distinguish between that and how I converse with you.

My response was simply pointing out the culprit behind the divisiveness - Chuckg - who attempts to personalize any topic that both he and I write about. Presumably, this is because I didn't put up with his histrionics on the DD/Takofanes thread.

[Chuckg]

> One thing about Jet fighters. They're *LOUD*.

Locating an aircraft by sound alone is nigh-impossible. You might know it's out there /somewhere/... but where? I live under an airport traffic pattern. I hear whooshings all day, but the only reason I know where from is because I know where the regular routes are. If it's not a scheduled flight, it can potentially be any-god-damned-where within the surrounding 100 square miles and I'd still hear the same thing.

> Even if they were at standoff range where Firewing couldn't
> see them, he would most likely be able to *hear* them and
> take precautions. Precautions such as the Damage Shield.

His Force Wall Damage Shield covers 1 hex. Firewing has to know at least roughly which direction the attack is arriving from before he can use it to defend himself.

His personal Damage Shield is 'too little, too late' -- sure, the missile destroys itself when it hits him, but by that time, it's already gone boom.

re: the range- - well, the missile is capable of travelling 7.6 kilometers / Turn, and its Fuel Charge lasts an entire minute... the F-18 doesn't have to be anywhere /near/ within 1 kilometer of Firewing to hose a few off and let them burn in.

[snip]
> What is the attack level of a Hornet's missile? It would take
> a pretty decent missile to be able to harm Firewing.

It's not so much the 5d6 AP 1-Hex Accurate RKA that's hurting him, it's the damage from a 1,280" / Phase Non-Combat Move Through. When a large chunk of metal going Mach 1 flies into you, you notice.


Addendum -- assuming that the pilot is using the aircraft's +3 levels w/ Flight as DCV, the DCV of an F-18 is 11.

Vs. Firewing's maximum OCV of 15, this means his chance to hit at 128 hexes, much less 525, is about 6 or less.

If he uses the Explosion EB, his chance to hit at a range of 513-1024 hexes is 9-.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
BTW, this entire argument has so far been made the /more/ favorable assumption for Firewing -- that we are using the "MIssiles bought as vehicle" writeups.

If we use the "MIssiles bought as No Range Penalty RKAs with Lots Of Extended Range" writeup option, he's just plain hosed... they'll throw repeated salvos at him from well outside his maximum effective range until he's just been nickeled and dimed to death, or until he drops down low into the city and turns off the flames to disengage from the action.

Either way, however, Firewing can only destroy the fighters if their pilots first close in to within dogfighting range... which they are not going to do unless lobotomized.

LL asked for a comparison of the published Fighter and a published Worldbeater - the missiles are bought as vehicles. The missiles aren't going to hit Firewing. He can extend his force wall out and the force wall is a large area heat source. The missiles will explode harmless when they reach it and they affect a single hex. If he needed to use flares it would be a simple matter to toss the area affecting explosive EB to create a large heat pattern which presumably would last longer than its instantaneous damaging effects.

On perception. Firewing's Damage Shield doesn't need to notice the missiles to do their thing and Firewing isn't stupid. Given a situation where the Fighters are being called out, Firewing is likely threatening something important and is aware that there will be a military response. And, if the missiles are moving at NON-COM wouldn't there effective OCV be 0 anyway? That significantly reduces their chance of hitting.

[Chuckg]

> LL asked for a comparison of the published Fighter and a
> published Worldbeater - the missiles are bought as vehicles.

Actually, TUV publishes two possible writeups -- missiles about as vehicles, or missiles bought as RKAs.

If you want to talk about 'published', you first have to read what's published.

[snip]
> On perception. Firewing's Damage Shield doesn't need to
> notice the missiles to do their thing

No, but Firewing does -- so he knows which hex to put the Force Wall in.

> and Firewing isn't stupid. Given a situation where the
> Fighters are being called out,

Firewing does not have Radio Hearing -- how did he hear the call? How does he know what vector they're arriving from?

> Firewing is likely threatening something important and is
> aware that there will be a military response.

Until he can be aware of which direction it's arriving from and when it will fire, his awareness will not be sufficient.

> And, if the missiles are moving at NON-COM wouldn't there
> effective OCV be 0 anyway?

Actually, thanks to the skill levels they bought -- remember, /base/ OCV is 0 at Non-Com, but OCV levels still work -- they'd have OCV 6.

And they're 1-hex Accurate -- i.e., all targets are DCV 3.

The air-to-air missiles, as published in TUV, have a base 14- chance to hit, oh, pretty much damn near /anything/.

> That significantly reduces their chance of hitting.

Before you can talk about published material, you first have to know it. You obviously don't.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> One thing about Jet fighters. They're *LOUD*.

Locating an aircraft by sound alone is nigh-impossible. You might know it's out there /somewhere/... but where? I live under an airport traffic pattern. I hear whooshings all day, but the only reason I know where from is because I know where the regular routes are. If it's not a scheduled flight, it can potentially be any-god-damned-where within the surrounding 100 square miles and I'd still hear the same thing.

All you need is the general direction of the jet to throw up the FW appropriately. The jet would have to get *behind* Firewing before its missile misses the FW. And that's not happening.

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Even if they were at standoff range where Firewing couldn't
> see them, he would most likely be able to *hear* them and
> take precautions. Precautions such as the Damage Shield.

His Force Wall Damage Shield covers 1 hex. Firewing has to know at least roughly which direction the attack is arriving from before he can use it to defend himself.

His personal Damage Shield is 'too little, too late' -- sure, the missile destroys itself when it hits him, but by that time, it's already gone boom.

Covering 1 hex is plenty. As I said before, the missile would have to hit him from behind. Also, it's a heat seeker, so it would tend to target the FW anyway, no matter what direction it's coming from. That FW Damage Shield is most likely going to be hotter than Firewing.

Originally posted by Chuckg

re: the range- - well, the missile is capable of travelling 7.6 kilometers / Turn, and its Fuel Charge lasts an entire minute... the F-18 doesn't have to be anywhere /near/ within 1 kilometer of Firewing to hose a few off and let them burn in.

That missile has almost no maneuverability. It's turn mode has to be gawdawful. Firewing can maneuver much easier, going up or down if necessary. Just a little shift in position means that the missile goes by, with no chance to adjust. In game terms, all he needs is a saved action and a half move, or a dive for cover.

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]
> What is the attack level of a Hornet's missile? It would take
> a pretty decent missile to be able to harm Firewing.

It's not so much the 5d6 AP 1-Hex Accurate RKA that's hurting him, it's the damage from a 1,280" / Phase Non-Combat Move Through. When a large chunk of metal going Mach 1 flies into you, you notice.

I wouldn't give it movethrough damage. 1280" per phase means 427d6 damage plus str, which would crack the planet open. As pointed out earlier in this thread, when the results get too silly, you ignore the results. Such as a bodybuider with an axe destroying an entire apartment complex with one swing.

At most, I'd give it a 1d6 per def+body of the missile added as a multiple power attack to the 5d6 RKA.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Addendum -- assuming that the pilot is using the aircraft's +3 levels w/ Flight as DCV, the DCV of an F-18 is 11.

Vs. Firewing's maximum OCV of 15, this means his chance to hit at 128 hexes, much less 525, is about 6 or less.

If he uses the Explosion EB, his chance to hit at a range of 513-1024 hexes is 9-.

Stop editing your posts when I'm posting. It's hard to keep up.

Remember, all the explosion needs to do is to get *close*. A near miss will still take out the jet. Not to mention knockback. -1d6 for flight. If any knockback is done, the plane is likely to shake itself apart flying at that velocity.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg
>Actually, thanks to the skill levels they bought -- remember, /base/ OCV is 0 at Non-Com, but OCV levels still work -- they'd have OCV 6.

Is that true? Because I don't think you can use levels for OCV when Non-Com. I don't have the book on me, but I thought that was the case at earlier editions.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
Good Gravy, I give up LL. When I said it's not your thread I meant it is not your thread that is causing any problems. You may think of this thread as not "your" thread but that is the way I was referring to it. I was not making a comment about whose thread it was. I have never needed to make any such comments to you LL.

Just because I respond to Chuckg's animosity by pointing it out, I would hope you can distinguish between that and how I converse with you.

My response was simply pointing out the culprit behind the divisiveness - Chuckg - who attempts to personalize any topic that both he and I write about. Presumably, this is because I didn't put up with his histrionics on the DD/Takofanes thread.

Point clarified, and sorry if I sounded testy.

I could wish that your friction wasn't there, because you both raise interesting and useful issues, but unless and until it escalates out of hand it's not my place to interfere.

You and I are still cool, though.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by lemming
Is that true? Because I don't think you can use levels for OCV when Non-Com. I don't have the book on me, but I thought that was the case at earlier editions.

Well, when asking Steve Long a related question recently, he specified that 0 OCV would be the base OCV rather than being based on DEX, and you would apply any Modifiers to combat normally after that.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Well, when asking Steve Long a related question recently, he specified that 0 OCV would be the base OCV rather than being based on DEX, and you would apply any Modifiers to combat normally after that.

Thanks. Hey, more notes in my house rules! (Then again, I frown on NCM movethroughs anyway.)

[Chuckg]

> All you need is the general direction of the jet [snip]

Problem is, from sound alone, you don't even get that little.

[snip]
> That missile has almost no maneuverability. It's turn mode
> has to be gawdawful.

It's also SPD 6... Firewing isn't getting very many extra phases on it.

> Firewing can maneuver much easier, going up or down if
> necessary. Just a little shift in position means that the
> missile goes by, with no chance to adjust. In game terms, all
> he needs is a saved action and a half move, or a dive for
> cover.

Provided that he successfully perceives exactly when and where the one is coming -- a point that still is in grave doubt -- OK, that saves him from the first one.

They're not just firing one. Each plane carries about 8 missiles each, and the pilot will have /at least/ one wingman.

It'll take repeated salvos to bring Firewing down, yes, but OK, he's going down.

[snip]
> I wouldn't give it movethrough damage. 1280" per phase
> means 427d6 damage plus str, which would crack the planet
> open. As pointed out earlier in this thread, when the
> results get too silly, you ignore the results.

Fair enough. No move-through damage... then. Just 5d6 RKA, AP 1-Hex Accurate.

[Chuckg]

> Remember, all the explosion needs to do is to get *close*. [snip]

True, but 1) the jet doesn't even need to get within 3 kilometers, much less one and 2) even getting close is harder than it looks... especially given that Firewing will have to know where it is to within 12 hexes.

[Metaphysician]

A couple quick comments:

-The force wall/damage shield combo would take down any missiles that hit it, since its transparent to physical. What stops the missile is the damage shield. It also probably is a very good decoy target. Issues of forewarning and gross direction still stand.

-450 point characters are *NOT* worldbeaters, or even army beaters, by any stretch of the imagination.

-Mechanon needs a No Range Penalty LoS RKA "Anti-Air Laser" slot.