Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[TheEmerged]

Actually, to me one of the most important factors is not the raw power and equipment -- it's the mentality. Most novas (super-powered people) are going to be civilians with a civilian mindsight and methods. Most military personel are going to have a major advantage here, especially if push comes to shove (insert crack about the one thing the Iron Age had right was the proper view of Code vs Killing).

Take X-Men 2 for example -- clearly written by a civilian. I don't know any military force in the world that would be idiotic enough to cram a dozen troops into a small hallway with no cover like that where even one grenade (let alone all the grenades they were carrying) could disable all of them.

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting observations, but let me clarify the issue I was looking for input on:

Let's take the example of Firewing, supposedly "one of the most personally powerful supervillains in the Champions Universe." 20D6 EB as his top attack, 40/40 Defenses, 30" Flight, DEX 30, SPD 7. He normally operates alone, and seeks out opportunities for challenging combat. There's an illustration in Champions Universe of him ripping through a squad of jet fighters.

Does he have the wherewithal to take out a military unit alone? Has anyone used him or a similar "world-class threat" against conventional military hardware? Preferably the examples in TUV, since they represent "canon" samples of what armed forces would have to throw at him.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
BTW, so far, all of my comments have been based on our real-world military, whose only knowledge of superbeings would be from comic-books.

Military forces from the Champions Universe would have access to the full body of doctrine written up by PRIMUS and/or UNTIL for meta-combat... and their special operations units, at minimum, would assiduously practice that doctrine. /And/ procure some of the proper gear.

As anybody who has either the VIPER or the UNTIL sourcebook knows, you need to be verrrrrrrrry high-points before you can completely stop worrying about agents. If there's enough of them. If they have sufficient training and motivation. And if they have the right tools.

I don't use Viper or Until because the philosophy seems flawed to me. When high end agents are built on the same amount of points or more points than low-powered supers there is a problem. When there are teams of 300 pt. agents walking around, there is a problem.

It's all in the builds. It wouldn't be difficult at all to build a general purpose superteam on 350 points that could also deal quite effectively with large modern military units. Are those teams that common? Probably not.

But some checks on military power - Low Speeds and missiles bought as vehicles for the military should help the heroes out.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Interesting observations, but let me clarify the issue I was looking for input on:

Let's take the example of Firewing, supposedly "one of the most personally powerful supervillains in the Champions Universe." 20D6 EB as his top attack, 40/40 Defenses, 30" Flight, DEX 30, SPD 7. He normally operates alone, and seeks out opportunities for challenging combat. There's an illustration in Champions Universe of him ripping through a squad of jet fighters.

Does he have the wherewithal to take out a military unit alone? Has anyone used him or a similar "world-class threat" against conventional military hardware? Preferably the examples in TUV, since they represent "canon" samples of what armed forces would have to throw at him.

Not yet.

We gotta remember that heroes can dive for cover and the like though. I think Firewing might do pretty well.

[Chuckg]

Well, given that Firewing can withstand both the listed air-to-air missile and the listed F-18 cannon fire for long periods of time, he could probably /get away/ from them, simply by dropping to the ground in an urban area and turning the fire off.

Of course, the problem with that illo is that the fighters actually closed to within kissing distance. It's Firewing, for God's sake -- he's flaring as hot as a jet exhaust! Your heat seekers can lock onto his Damage Shield from 10 to 20 miles away! Why the hell are you ever getting within range of his EB? Sure, you'd need to fire multiple rocket ripples until you finally got a high enough STUN multiplier to stagger him, but that's why God gave you multiple hardpoints and wingmen.

Like what TheEmerged said about X-2, only worse -- in X-2, at least, the soldiers had /some/ reason to presume that they wouldn't be facing grenades. Civilian school run by a known semi-pacifist, after all.

[memesis]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Actually, the average squad of soldiers -- at least, if we're talking about major First World military forces -- will have better coordination than the average superteam, unless you're talking teams like the Avengers or the X-Men, who have logged so many man-hours intensively training that they might as well /be/ Special Forces units.

Which is why it depends on the team. A lot of classic comic teams do receive this sort of training, and can expect to be sent up against military/high-tech/government-funded opposition - in fact, this is the entire basis for the X-Men universe..

In the game, no -- a simple Darkness vs. Radio Sense Group is enough to jam.

IRL, on the other hand, it ain't always that easy...

Actually, many modern military headsets today use variable-frequency scramble coding on at least 256 bits... in order to jam it, you'd need sophisticated broadband jamming capacity. A simple frequency jammer won't do it, 'cause you'll only get a fraction of the signal.

I would be hard-pressed to believe that any team that can field a density-changing android, a guy wearing self-powered flying armor, a VTOL stealth jet, etc. cannot handle jamming modern military radios and radars, regardless of frequency agility and so forth. In the Champions universe, any guy who can carry around revolutionary battle-armor in his BRIEFCASE should be similarly capable.

I have been told that the old chestnut of jamming them with a crowbar will now only get you a bent crowbar -- tanks today have significantly more robust treads and more horsepower than they used to.

True, if that speedster has snagged himself some HE grenades and knows where to put them... quick, gimme your PS: Soldier or KS: Tanks roll. Don't have it?

He does after a few training sessions, depending on the team. If he's starting from scratch, it will not be terrifically tough for the team to get their hands on some tank, somewhere, and practice for awhile.

Again, this all boils down to what sort of team you throw in. I would argue that a teleporter and gadgeteer are essential to any well-rounded "military-busting" team, but that's just my opinion.

As for "IRL it's not so easy", well, IRL it's not so easy to build powered armor, fly, or bend steel beams with your bare hands. But we're positing people who can do all these things and more. I for one won't say it's a pushover - many, many supers and super-teams will get crushed like a bug. But I'm not going to discount their abilities any more than I am forgetting the power that a well-trained and well-equipped soldier has.

[Champsguy]

Oh please. It's not even close. Supers take this one easily.

First, let's get one thing straight: Steve Long screwed up when it came to writing up military equipment. The stats he lists are far too high. Simply put, he doesn't know what an 8D6 RKA Explosion will do (I know it was changed in The Ultimate Vehicle, but he didn't make it right there, either). The M1-A1 listed in the book will survive being dropped from orbit, no ifs, ands, or buts. It won't even be scratched if it lands on its nose.

Hey, I'm a military-tech buff. I sometimes enjoy nothing more than sitting around and looking at stats for the new hardware that's coming out. I'm very familiar with their capabilities. I'm also very aware of their limitations.

You think it's soooo easy to find supers? How easy was it for us to find Bin Laden? Oh wait, we haven't yet?

Those heat-seekers you shoot at Firewing won't work when he's within a city. He's gonna have cover on all sides from the buildings he's surrounded by.

Artillery? Hah! You think we can aim that stuff at a fast-moving super?

Half (or more) of the members of a superhuman team will be able to fly. That removes tanks from the equation.

Supers roll, no problem.

[Supreme Serpent]

As for the original question: no, most Champions supers, even the heavy hitters, wouldn't have a chance really against modern military hardware. A couple of good tank blasts with good stun mods and it's all over.


As for the hijacked part of the thread, I think it partly depends on the environment. Open terrain, military has the edge in most cases. In a city...heaven help the army. One guy alone like Batman or Spider-man could tie them in knots.

[Chuckg]

> First, let's get one thing straight: Steve Long screwed up
> when it came to writing up military equipment. The stats he
> lists are far too high. Simply put, he doesn't know what an
> 8D6 RKA Explosion will do (I know it was changed in The
> Ultimate Vehicle, but he didn't make it right there, either).

If a 2d6 RKA is an M-16 -- and it is -- then you're going to have severe trouble convincing anyone that a 120mm DU hypervelocity round should only be 4-6d6, even /with/a logarithmic damage scale.

> The M1-A1 listed in the book will survive being dropped
> from orbit, no ifs, ands, or buts. It won't even be scratched
> if it lands on its nose.

The M1A1 Abrams can withstand a direct hit from its own main gun on its nose, at close range. The armor /has/ to be comparable with the damage rating for the tube.

As for "falls from orbit"... no, you're forgetting that the atmospheric friction damage is taken /every Phase/. Even at only 1 BODY or so per Phase, the thing will be half-molten slag by the time it hits.

[snip]
> You think it's soooo easy to find supers?

In an open-field battle, yes. Nobody yet has addressed the problem of how to find supers in a city, except me... and that was for me to admit that it would be very, very hard.

Edit -- and Supreme Serpent's post, to admit that it would be nigh-impossible.

> How easy was it for us to find Bin Laden?

About as easy as the superheroes have (not) found Doctor Destroyer -- and for many of the same reasons.

[snip]
> Those heat-seekers you shoot at Firewing won't work when
> he's within a city.

Yes, thank you, didn't I just already say this? Sheesh. If you're going to argue with someone, read him first.

[snip]
> Half (or more) of the members of a superhuman team will be
> able to fly. That removes tanks from the equation.

... and enters in the Air Defense Artillery boys.

There are /some/ high-powered supers who can laugh at even large, organized military forces -- we already conceded this. There are some other stealth masters who would be nigh-impossible to find in built-up terrain -- we already conceded that, as well. How did you manage to so thoroughly avoid reading any of this?

OTOH, there are many supers who are dead meat if the military goes after them with sufficient force, and that's what we were talking about as well.



PS -- as to how artilery hits fast-moving targets... same way you call in artillery strikes on truck convoys and advancing enemy formations. Unless the target in question is moving faster than 60 mph, it's no big diff. Unless the guy's in a city or something.

[misterdeath]

Depends on the Age, actually.

If you're running a Golden or Silver age campaign, sure.

if you're running an Iron age campaign, probably not.

If you're running a Bronze age campaign, then maybe, depending on how the GM emphasises the power of the normals.

Since Champions Universe seems to default to a Silver Age shading to the Bronze Age, IMO, yes the world beaters should be able to thrash the military.

But, the rules don't necessarily support that, since Hero System is ageless and generic.

Hence, various people's "normal things take extra damage from supers" that have been thrown around.

x2 Vulnerability or Automatic Maximum Damage are two choices I like. For a Silver Age game.

D

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The basic question, Worldbeaters vs Military, is interesting but I don’t think that you can ignore the context of a given battle in asking it.

Does the battle occur in the open? In a city? In a military base? Location will make *huge* difference in what kind of force the military can and will bring to bear and in what tactics they will use.

Is one side surprised or is this a confrontation where both sides have plenty of warning?

Is this a daytime or nighttime fight? Many heroes lack Nightvision and the sensory capability of the military in general.

At first I thought that you were asking about the worldbeaters as in the guys from the Worldbeaters... er, Worldbeaterbeaters thread. As far as those specific guys I see things working out like this….

The vast majority of the militaries attacks will be killing attacks of various sorts, NND gas attacks, and only the occasional EB. Many will be Explosion or AP attacks. KA are super dangerous as mentioned because of the lucky stun roll effects. Given the number of attackers the odds *will* catch up with heroes who have defenses that are too low.

Against the Worldbeaters gas attacks are not likely to do very much good given the prevalence of Life Support. Rifle rounds are also going to be pretty ineffective against this crew. The heavy vehicles and weapons are going to be what will decided this fight … and in a major city that could be a problem for the military.

Assault (as currently written) and Prometheus as written are in pretty good shape. Both have hardened resistant defenses of 40. That will make them all but immune to many of the military’s attacks. Assault will probably have to have some of his gadget pool allotted to some sort of flight pack or other movement gear to keep up with the tanks & helicopters but that’s doable. His pool also could be *very* useful for jamming, listening to communications, and the like.

Prometheus is a bit slow relatively speaking both in terms of speed and movement but at 22” of running and 20” of leaping might be OK. His 100 str will be tough on tanks. This brick’s thermo and telescopic sight have the potential to be huge especially in a nighttime fight.

Professor Polaris has force walls that will be extremely effective if used properly. His personal defenses aren’t quite up to the level of Prometheus and Assault but he can take a few heavy hits if it comes to that. His spatial awareness and TK are pretty strategic assets as well in this kind of fight.

Hyperman has the potential to fly with the jets or be effective vs Tanks like mentioned above but his biggest weaknesses will be lack of appropriate ranged senses (no mega senses or telescopic sight are a problem). His resistant defenses are also a bit low for this kind of battle. The 17 DCV will help but all it’s going to take is one lucky hit from a jet or LAW to take him down. Quick forays in and out of protection provided by Prof Polaris might be the way to go.

Golden Hunter is invisible to sight but radar is going to be a huge problem for him. If Assault isn’t jamming then he could be toast quick. His resistant defenses are also low for this kind of combat. On the plus side he has a nice no range modifier attack & UV vision … but without telescopic senses to back them up their use is not as great as they could be.

Silly Putty is going to be of *very* limited use in this fight. His major defense is Damage Reduction but odds are that a squad of ground pounders with assault rifles is going to be enough to blast him apart for good. His major role in this fight is going to be to seek cover & hide. If he is lucky he might be able to sneak around a bit and do some damage to the command structure.

Typhoon can do some nice offensive whop-**s but defensively can be taken out easily by the military. Only by working with Prof Polaris will this PC be able to positively affect the outcome of this battle.

Kunduna (as currently written) … I’m not really sure how she would do. At first I thought that her mind scan + ego blast could do some interesting things against the opposing command structure but then I realized that she could only do one or the other at one time the way her MP is built. Physically she is limited too in that she can either be tough [Force Field 30, 30] or use her attacks [EB & Ego Attack] but she can’t do both at once. Her Damage Reduction is large … but doesn’t work against killing attacks. So in the end she is like Typhoon. Hiding behind Prof Polaris’ force walls she can pick off soldiers and *maybe* the odd vehicle with her attacks but she isn’t going to contribute as much to this battle as you might think. The more I look at her the more I think she could benefit from a major re-write beyond what has already been suggested in that thread.

Overall I think that the Worldbeaters, using proper tactics, could beat a small or maybe even a medium sized force … but are toast against a large one or even a small one if they don’t fight smart.

[Champsguy]

Let's not even worry about using the Worldbeaters for a second. Let's use the Ultimates.

First, the Starbird, their team jet, travels at Mach 5. That'll allow them to escape any immediate threat by the military. No real world jet can fly fast enough to catch them.

But the Ultimates aren't worried about escape right now. That's because they have forewarning that the military is coming. How do they have that? They watch CNN.

That's right, the military has Watched by the news media on a 14-. Any out of the ordinary large scale troop movement is going to attract attention. That's because it'll take anywhere from all day to several weeks to get any sizable force deployed (depending on how close the point of attack is compared to where the troops and equipment are located). It's not easy to drive a dozen tanks down main street without being seen.

The Ultimates' base is in Millenium city. The military won't be able to use it's high-powered kill juice within a population center of that size. Heat seeking missiles? Forget about it. Nukes? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Definitely not within a city, and definitely not within Millenium City. The political backlash would be too great.

So the military is left with using plain, ordinary soldiers. This is where they get into real trouble. Blackstar is immune to their weaponry. After all, he's got an 18 Dex and a 4 Speed. He moves like lightning compared to most soldiers. He's not gonna hold still for somebody to shoot a wire-guided missile at him. Even if they do, he aborts to Desolid.

Suddenly, the soldiers slip and fall to the ground. They find it nearly impossible to stand, or to grip their weapons. It looks like Slick is in town.

Thunderbolt has 15D6 EBs that he can shoot. He'll spread that and drop big groups of guys. Normals don't hold up to that kind of damage.

--

But let's give the military the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that the Ultimates are travelling across open country. The Ultimates are on vacation, seeing the California coast They're driving from LA to San Fransisco (it's supposed to be a beautiful drive), and have stopped for a picnic (in costume). The military (somehow) gets the drop on them. They've got a dozen M1-A2s, half a mile away. They've got 4 F/A-22s coming in. They've got a ship at sea, ready with cruise missiles.

Phase 12: The Ultimates go first, because they have higher Dex scores than GI Joe. Binder and Radium (being without movement powers) take cover. Tanks and planes can't hit what they can't see. The California coast isn't flat terrain, so they'll be able to find cover.

Slick skates off to score with an ex-girlfriend or something. He's from California, you know. The guy can slide on his feet at 170 mph, even off-road.

Cyclone grabs Thunderbolt and Blackstar, and flies to the tanks, dropping them off (literally) on top of the tanks. He's got a 40 Str, so he can carry them both, easily. He's got megascaled movement, so he can get there easily.

The tank crews, limited by the fact that visibility completely blows inside a tank (even in modern tanks, the most visibility is afforded by having the tank commander stick his head out of the hatch), don't know that the Ultimates are literally at their door.

Thunderbolt, landing on top of one of the tanks in the rear of the formation, uses his electrical control power (Mind Control vs machines) to take command of that particular tank. The turret turns and points at the M1directly in front of it. Ka-blamm! Scratch one tank (sadly, American tanks don't have an auto-reloader, so Thunderbolt will only get one shot). While M1s can withstand our 125 mm depleted uranium shells from the front and sides, from the back they'll get penetrated like a Thai schoolgirl.

Blackstar, on top of a seperate tank, turns full density. He would then rip off the turret and throw it at a different tank, but he doesn't have to. You see, he now weighs 200 tons. His increased weight just crushed the treads and bent the frame of the tank he's riding on. Scratch tank #2. That doesn't stop Blackstar, of course, from ripping loose the turret and throwing it in the path of another tank. At 60 mph, it's hard to stop suddenly. Tank #3 loses it's treads.

Also on 12: The fighter pilots continue towards their target. They see an abandoned picnic area.

The guys in the tank now controlled by Thunderbolt say "Uh huh wha? Why did the gun fire? What's going on? Why aren't the controls responding?" This doesn't happen every day.

The guys in the tank shot by Thunderbolt don't do anything. They're dead.

The guys in the tank stepped on by Blackstar, and in the tank that has just de-treaded itself on a turret get tossed about inside the tank. They're really not going to matter anymore.

The guys in the other 8 tanks, sadly, don't even know this has happened. In the first Gulf War, American tank crews said that Iraqi cannon fire sounded like raindrops when it bounced off their hulls. In the second Gulf War, an M1-A1 Abrams tipped over and fell off a bridge, and no one else in their platoon even noticed. You can't hear a damn thing inside those tanks. You don't even get a Perception roll.

Phase 2: Cyclone flies up into the air, using his megascaled Flight, and engages the F/A 22s (his radar won't detect them, but he can see them with his eyes). A 10D6 x2 KB attack will tear into a lightly armored jet aircraft. Cyclone is faster, more maneuverable, and a much more difficult target than they are. He can play "tag" with the jets all day. Sadly, the jets lose that game.

Slick takes an ice cream cone from a little girl. Mmmm, chocolate!

Nobody else goes on 2.

Phase 3: Thunderbolt steers the tank he's driving towards another. He's gonna need to switch horses so he can shoot another gun. He pulls first tank alongside the second, and telemechanically orders the first to pop it's fire-retardant foam dispensers (all M1-A1s have them inside--you can even activate them from outside if you know where the lever is, or if you have telemechanics). The first crew will be forced to evacuate the tank. Scratch tank #4. Thunderbolt then hops over on top of tank #5. He uses his telemechanics and...

I think everyone can see where this is going.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> First, let's get one thing straight: Steve Long screwed up
> when it came to writing up military equipment. The stats he
> lists are far too high. Simply put, he doesn't know what an
> 8D6 RKA Explosion will do (I know it was changed in The
> Ultimate Vehicle, but he didn't make it right there, either).

If a 2d6 RKA is an M-16 -- and it is -- then you're going to have severe trouble convincing anyone that a 120mm DU hypervelocity round should only be 4-6d6, even /with/a logarithmic damage scale.

> The M1-A1 listed in the book will survive being dropped
> from orbit, no ifs, ands, or buts. It won't even be scratched
> if it lands on its nose.

The M1A1 Abrams can withstand a direct hit from its own main gun on its nose, at close range. The armor /has/ to be comparable with the damage rating for the tube.

As for "falls from orbit"... no, you're forgetting that the atmospheric friction damage is taken /every Phase/. Even at only 1 BODY or so per Phase, the thing will be half-molten slag by the time it hits.

[snip]
> You think it's soooo easy to find supers?

In an open-field battle, yes. Nobody yet has addressed the problem of how to find supers in a city, except me... and that was for me to admit that it would be very, very hard.

Edit -- and Supreme Serpent's post, to admit that it would be nigh-impossible.

> How easy was it for us to find Bin Laden?

About as easy as the superheroes have (not) found Doctor Destroyer -- and for many of the same reasons.

[snip]
> Those heat-seekers you shoot at Firewing won't work when
> he's within a city.

Yes, thank you, didn't I just already say this? Sheesh. If you're going to argue with someone, read him first.

[snip]
> Half (or more) of the members of a superhuman team will be
> able to fly. That removes tanks from the equation.

... and enters in the Air Defense Artillery boys.

There are /some/ high-powered supers who can laugh at even large, organized military forces -- we already conceded this. There are some other stealth masters who would be nigh-impossible to find in built-up terrain -- we already conceded that, as well. How did you manage to so thoroughly avoid reading any of this?

OTOH, there are many supers who are dead meat if the military goes after them with sufficient force, and that's what we were talking about as well.



PS -- as to how artilery hits fast-moving targets... same way you call in artillery strikes on truck convoys and advancing enemy formations. Unless the target in question is moving faster than 60 mph, it's no big diff. Unless the guy's in a city or something.

1) Champsguy didn't refer to you one single time so please don't berate him for not reading your post or referencing it.

2) Would it make it more difficult to target a fast-moving super who has no turn mode than a truck convoy moving at 60-70 mph on a road? I'm assuming the answer is yes. So, my real question is: Can the tanks compensate for this far more unpredictable type of movement from a smaller target?

[Champsguy]

The problem, you see, is that supers have very erratic movement patterns, and they're not going to stand and trade fire. They're going to cheat.

The reason you can target a convoy with artillery is because it keeps moving in the same general direction. A super who can run at 60 mph is far harder to target because he doesn't have to: a) stick to roads, b) stay outside, or c) keep going the same direction. You can't predict where he's going to be when the shell lands.

Another problem is that the military is, in general, Speed 2. Tanks don't get to fire 5 times a turn. They can fire once, maybe twice a turn. They also have massive perception penalties.

The military fighting superhumans would be at a tremendous disadvantage because supers can appear completely without warning. Radar? Almost all supers can fly at NOE (nape of the Earth) levels. Firewing flies below radar if he feels like it.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

If a 2d6 RKA is an M-16 -- and it is -- then you're going to have severe trouble convincing anyone that a 120mm DU hypervelocity round should only be 4-6d6, even /with/a logarithmic damage scale.


The M1A1 Abrams can withstand a direct hit from its own main gun on its nose, at close range. The armor /has/ to be comparable with the damage rating for the tube.

Just last year, an M1-A1 Abrams shot a hotel room where the Army believed snipers were hiding. Television crews on the same floor survived. That means it wasn't too far above a 6D6 RKA. That 8D6 Explosion would have destroyed the entire top half of that hotel. I don't have TUV (the writeups are all similarly useless), but I believe the writeup of that gun as well is similarly overpowered. Tank guns don't do that much damage to real life structures.

As for "falls from orbit"... no, you're forgetting that the atmospheric friction damage is taken /every Phase/. Even at only 1 BODY or so per Phase, the thing will be half-molten slag by the time it hits.

Fine. Then they can fall from 2 miles up. As long as they don't take atmospheric re-entry damage, they'll survive. On average, they won't even take Body from hitting the ground.

> Half (or more) of the members of a superhuman team will be
> able to fly. That removes tanks from the equation.

... and enters in the Air Defense Artillery boys.

They won't fly high enough for that to ever enter into the equation. A tank can't shoot you when you're flying around 100 feet off the ground, and neither can anti-aircraft fire.

There are /some/ high-powered supers who can laugh at even large, organized military forces -- we already conceded this. There are some other stealth masters who would be nigh-impossible to find in built-up terrain -- we already conceded that, as well. How did you manage to so thoroughly avoid reading any of this?

I read it. The posts are all over the place. There's no organization. My point, however, is that most all supers would be able to fight against the military.

PS -- as to how artilery hits fast-moving targets... same way you call in artillery strikes on truck convoys and advancing enemy formations. Unless the target in question is moving faster than 60 mph, it's no big diff. Unless the guy's in a city or something.

It's easy to hit a convoy that's moving in a straight line.