Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Gary]

Against a tank, Firewing doesn't need to use levels for CV. Therefore, he uses 4 levels for +2 DC to do 22d6 damage. First of all, it has a decent chance to do knockback (not having the real weapon limitation, it follows standard Champions rules). Any knockback that flips the Tank over probably dooms it. And if it doesn't, Firewing simply throws his explosion attack through the small 2 body hole that his first attack generated. I don't see too many crewmen able to survive the 12d6 explosion confined inside the narrow space of a tank.

[Chuckg]

> First of all, it has a decent chance to do knockback (not
> having the real weapon limitation, it follows standard
> Champions rules). Any knockback that flips the Tank over
> probably dooms it.

It dooms it, all right -- it can't move or fire if it's turned turtle.

> And if it doesn't, Firewing simply throws his explosion attack
> through the small 2 body hole that his first attack
> generated. I don't see too many crewmen able to survive
> the 12d6 explosion confined inside the narrow space of a
> tank.

Especially not given that the ammo and fuel just went up, and everything inside the tank is now vapor.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
One thing I'm trying to figure out, though, is how Eurostar handles ingress/egress from target sites. Several of them are bit lacking in mobility, and have little ability to blend.

This was exactly the function of the (late, lamented) Bora on the 4E version of the team. If they needed to bug out in a hurry she could use AoE Telekinesis (wind) to airlift everyone at once.

I'm still using that lineup for Eurostar BTW. It's a much more powerful and better balanced team than the one in CKC.

[Vorsch]

Personally i liked eurostar in 4th ed, especially durak and pantera. great team but had to adjust all of them in the same way, this entire team of 500pt characters has an ego of 8 or 14 and NO mental defence, the leader has an ego of 11?

Mentalla or even any third rate mentalist could controll this group, there all basically joe average. Hell even mentalla had only 23 ego and 15 mental defence total.
i consider this to be downright bizare for the most powerful vilain group in the world.

[Lord Liaden]

EGOs are one area that is improved for the 5E Eurostar. They were generally higher for the New Millennium versions as well, and I incorporated some elements of those into "my" team.

With Mentalla on your side, though, any attempt by a rival mentalist to control you (at least in combat) is liable to be brief. Besides, there were some serious Psych Lims among the Eurostar members that would need to be overcome.

This is the CU villain team that most concerns me within the context of this thread, though. It's supposed to be the most feared group of supervillains in the world, and premier terrorists. Granted that a lot of terrorism is and should be of the sneaky variety, but the powers and personalities of this bunch are plainly intended to be able to kick butt and cause devastation through direct, highly visible action.

[Chuckg]

re: Eurostar -- yes, they're classic terrorists in methodology. Preplan escape routes, hit soft targets, be gone before the heavy response arrives.

Or else hit soft targets, set up ground for killing ambush, wait for heavy response to arrive, cheap-shot it massively.

I actually don't mind Bora being gone. Now the PCs actually have a chance to force an engagement and maybe win one or two, instead of 'OK, as soon as Eurostar doesn't like it, they laave.'

As for sneaky -- well, all of them except Durak and Feuermacher /can/ be quite sneaky if they want -- heck, Scorpia's virtually nothing but, Fiacho is very well-rounded, Ultrasonique can just take the armor off, and Mentalla always has her little "This is not the sociopathic telepathic European terrorist you are looking for."

[Agent X]

Eurostar was much better designed in 4e in terms of capabilities and I sure got the feeling they were supposed to be able to wade through conventional military forces. I think all of the members of Eurostar need to be reevaluated by comparing membership and writeups between the two editions and taking the best of both worlds.

[megaplayboy]

Here's a suggestion--why not evaluate how effective the Warlord and his crew would be against military opp? He's supposed to be a military genius, and a leader of his own small army, so it's quite likely that he would come into conflict with military forces.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
Here's a suggestion--why not evaluate how effective the Warlord and his crew would be against military opp? He's supposed to be a military genius, and a leader of his own small army, so it's quite likely that he would come into conflict with military forces.

True -- although they'd hardly be likely to be First World military forces, given that his area of influence appears to be Southeast Asia.

And I'm sure he could knock over any Third World dictatorship... especially since if he had the slightest amount of brains, he wouldn't be alone. (i.e. -- whoever else doesn't like his target du jour, he'd be with.)

[Metaphysician]

We could use some more stats on the Warlord's troop and vehicle capabilities. The impression I got is that his forces are armor light, aircraft heavy, with lots of airmobile infantry tactics.

[Chuckg]

Which is exactly what you need to go mess up Third World nations -- they're not exactly known for their fearsome tank battalions and large armored battles. To fight those kinds of militaries you need city fighters, infantry munchers, and superior mobility to offset their hordes of poorly trained peons with AK-47s... i.e., elite airmobile infantry and light powered armor troops.

Add in the capabilities of the Flying Fortress to deliver heavy artillery support, and ultra-tech Hzeel grav gunships to be your air force, and I could see him running over someplace like Indonesia in under a week, barring superhuman intervention or the sudden arrival of a US Navy carrier battle group and Marine Expeditionary Unit... and even then, they'll be in a real fight.

[Gary]

The Warlord's group would have to be beefed up to take on even a small country. The Flying Fortress only has 16 12d6 blasters, with only 300" range or 600 meters. Any jet will be able to shoot it down with ease, especially since it has only 12 Def.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
This was exactly the function of the (late, lamented) Bora on the 4E version of the team. If they needed to bug out in a hurry she could use AoE Telekinesis (wind) to airlift everyone at once.

I'm still using that lineup for Eurostar BTW. It's a much more powerful and better balanced team than the one in CKC.

I agree that Bora and Pantera were a major loss to the lineup, but the Whip guy was a welcome deletion.

When our team took down some of the Eurostar team, Scorpia went down early enough for one of our Martial Artists, Zlf to take out Mentalla while she was busy sparring (fairly successfully) with my Mentalist, Prodigy, who had mentally paralyzed Durak for three phases after Durak cold cocked our teleporting brick Sidestep...sort of a cascading rock, paper, scissors effect all around with two of the hero team standing and no Eurostar standing. If Z'lf had fought Pantera instead of Scorpia, the fight might have turned out far differently. Certainly if our flying Energy Projector had been present, Bora would have been a much tougher challenge than Fuermacher. Nonetheless, the fight was challenging enough for those of us involved.

As Eurostar was literally the only component of the Hero Universe we have ever used in our campaign relatively unchanged, keeping Bora and Pantera would be an easy solution for the GM who ran the adventure, although he is new enough not to have all the fourth and earlier edition stuff.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Gary
The Warlord's group would have to be beefed up to take on even a small country. The Flying Fortress only has 16 12d6 blasters, with only 300" range or 600 meters. Any jet will be able to shoot it down with ease, especially since it has only 12 Def.

Yes, the 12d6 blasters are filling only the same role as the 20mm Phalanx mounts on a Navy vessel -- final point defense. The Flying Fortress' main defenses vs. air attack are most likely two-fold:

a) as a flying carrier, it has aircraft of its own -- aircraft with Hzeel grav technology and blaster cannons. At /least/ comparable to the F-18 writeup, IOW.

b) so long as he's only fighting Third World nations and not directly taking on First World superpowers, the Warlord will likely never face anybody with a modern or competent air force. The F-18 is much, much, /much/ more dangerous an opponent than, oh, a 10-year old Mig model being flown by a mediocrely-trained pilot, using missiles that were almost obsolete before I was born... and I just described most of the Chinese air force, let alone the military capability of the nation of South Nowhere.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg
b) so long as he's only fighting Third World nations and not directly taking on First World superpowers, the Warlord will likely never face anybody with a modern or competent air force. The F-18 is much, much, /much/ more dangerous an opponent than, oh, a 10-year old Mig model being flown by a mediocrely-trained pilot, using missiles that were almost obsolete before I was born... and I just described most of the Chinese air force, let alone the military capability of the nation of South Nowhere.

Actually, the Chinese air force has gotten a lot more dangerous lately. Their latest model J-10 fighter (based on technology and funding that Israel received from the US and sold to China) is supposed to have the capabilities of an advanced model F-16 aircraft. Also, they have received AWACS and missile technology from both Russia and Israel.

They're still not close to the US, but they've caught up to most of the rest of the world.