Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Chuckg]

> Actually, the Chinese air force has gotten a lot more
> dangerous lately. Their latest model J-10 fighter (based on
> technology and funding that Israel received from the US
> and sold to China) is supposed to have the capabilities of an
> advanced model F-16 aircraft.

I'll believe /that/ when I see it. I remember the early over-estimations of the capacity of the Mig-31 and Sukhoi-25, too... very respectable airframes, but the avionics didn't live up to hype. And today, once you get the engines and airframe past a certain minimum point, it's the electronics that make you or break you.

> Also, they have received AWACS and missile technology from
> both Russia and Israel.

/nods/

But even if I stand corrected at this point, all it means is that the Warlord shouldn't go to China, either -- not that he was going to anyway, seeing as how it's just too damn big.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Mentor
ICertainly if our flying Energy Projector had been present, Bora would have been a much tougher challenge than Fuermacher. Nonetheless, the fight was challenging enough for those of us involved.

Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6)

While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle.

Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6)

While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle.

Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher.

Are you sure Thunderbird was there? I don't recall that.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X
Are you sure Thunderbird was there? I don't recall that.

No doubt because you were off Fighting Crime somewhere else.

*Mutter* Damn smart alec...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
No doubt because you were off Fighting Crime somewhere else.

*Mutter* Damn smart alec...

Most likely.

[gewing]

Actually that is what I meant. Most well trained military should be about speed 3, elites should often be speed 4. This definately cuts the advantages of some supers.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
If the benchmarks in the official books carry any weight for you, FREd defines Competent Normals (at the level of professional athletes) as up to SPD 3. I'd expect most well-trained soldiers to fall into that category. Elite forces might achieve SPD 4, but beyond that we're getting into the realm of exceptional Heroes.

[gewing]

Both of you are forgetting something. I have not got TUV yet, so haven't seen the writeup, but...

Air to air missiles are proximity fused fragmentation area effect weapons. So are most Surface to air missiles. THis may well make his damage shield MORE effective, if you base it on real world, because instead of a large missile it has to defeat small fragments. There are 2 problems with this. One, the fragments are moving at 4000+ feet per second. 2, they are usually TUNGSTEN. This is pretty high def, imo.

Now other points. As I said, I haven't seen the writup, but sidewinders travel somewhat over mach 2, and have a range of up to 11 miles or so. AMRAAM travels about Mach 4 and has a range of over 30 miles. BOth would be fairly hard to spot as they came in on someone.

The idea that vehicles moving at full speed are 0 DCV bothers me. An M-1 Abrams can hit a target while it is moving 40 miles per hour at 1000 meters. Easily. Maybe the driver should be at 0 OCV and the gunner is not?

I don't know. HERO's is the best system around IMO, but that does not mean it is perfect. I would like to see more granularity of damage. Just for starters.

Originally posted by Chuckg
/sigh/

The Hornet, Agent X, uses the /missiles/ when flying at Noncombat Speeds... and when you look at the missiles, you'll notice that they're specifically designed for the NC Velocity Move-Through. The 'Gravitar vs. Viperia' thread has a very detailed discussion of how such a thing is done.

*checks off another repetition*


BTW, another thing you forgot -- the F-18 has +3 levels w/ Flight. If those levels are put into defense, it has DCV 11, not DCV 8.

[gewing]

Sidewinders would probably still target him on the ground, but they might not be as accurate, detonating further away due to angle of approach, etc .

Originally posted by Chuckg
lemming -- re: using the EBs as flares to distract the missiles... first off, unless he uses the 20d6 or maybe the 12d6 Explosion, I would think that his Force Wall Damage Shield -- given that it's Area Effect -- is flaring 'hotter' than any of his EBs. Especially since it's Constant and the EBs are Instant. Decoy flares are usually built as Continuing Charges, and Firewing has no attacks that do likewise.

(Unless he's on the ground and near flammable objects, natch- - but if he's on the ground, the missiles can't be used. The scenario I'm outlining here requires Firewing to be caught flying at altitude.)

Second off, it requires him to know the missiles are on their way... which, if the pilot simply fires them from a decent stand-off distance, he won't.

[gewing]

Missiles are visible from the frontal arc on IR or UV, that is how some of the defensive countermeasures suites on combat aircraft work.

Other notes, US Fighters carry 2 kinds of missiles, Sidewinder is IR guided, short ranged, under 20 kilometers. warhead is about 10-20 lbs.
Amraam is longer ranged, 40+ kilometers, 30 lb warhead.

Warhead sizes are estimates, not looking up right now.

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Okay, question: How much of a heat signature would a stinger have from the frontal direction?? I know it would be smaller than from the rear, but wouldn't it still be pretty sizeable, compared to the background??

Similarly, wouldn't it be easier for Firewing to spot incoming fighters by their heat signature than by normal sight ( assuming they aren't heat stealthed )??

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6)

While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle.

Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher.

Oh yeah. Well considering Mentalla drained 3 points of Prodigy's Ego and then hit him with an Ego Blast, my mind was on other things.

[gewing]

just to throw another complication in, Missiles don't usually fire ALL at once. Maybe one from each wing, spacing 1-3 seconds otherwise.

I would be tempted to have an A-10 sneak in low on him
(they are notoriously hard to hear coming) and have it open up with 4-6 17 round 70mm rocket pods, each rocket carries a 10 or 17 lb warhead, I would use the 10 lb Armor piercing flechette, 5x 1.5 lb darts each, say 4d6 AP, they spread in a cone, the pods can ripple much faster than normal missiles, I have seen pictures of about 5 leaving the pod at the same time. The 30mm cannon would probably hit just before the rockets, taking down the force wall probably, due to the AP rounds every 3rd shell.

so lets see, 31/2 d6 AP 2x autofire cannon
4 linked double autofire 4d6 AP are effect one hex attacks (?????) might be larger area effect.


WOuld that do it?

I haven't even seen the writeup for firewing. Oh, and though the rockets are usually used for air to ground, they were originally designed for air to air to kill bombers.

This does not even use the laser guided version of the rocket that is coming out very soon.

Originally posted by Gary
I think you would know which 180 degree arc it's coming from.



You were the one who was suggesting staggering the missiles earlier.



We're not assuming a surprised situation, or else Dr. Destroyer would be taken out by a salvo of missiles at 2X stun. We're assuming a meeting engagement where both sides are aware of each other. *Any* villain in the book can be taken out fairly easily if they're surprised.

It's a *lot* less than even odds that Firewing will be constunned from only 1 hit.



The missile does not "Hold" actions. It's flying at noncombat speeds every phase, and takes 2-3 phases to reach assuming that the jet is at standoff range. Plenty of time for Firewing to react.



Yeah, and one hit from a tank shell will con stun Dr. Destroyer if he's surprised. We're not dealing in a surprise scenario.



They aren't *that* far apart. Just within the same 180 degree arc.



Can the radar target a man size object? And of course the FW is going to be in the way of the missile anyway.



Yeah, there's no reason for the jet to get closer, but Firewing should be able to dodge or explode all 8 missiles and force the jet to retreat.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6)

While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle.

Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher.

Anyway, that is correct. Ultrasonique was a wuss and our Thunderbird kicks the Hero Universe Thunderbird's butt.

Their Eurostar is pretty righteous, though.

[gewing]

The Mr. Picky part of me raises his ugly head again. Stingers and most more advanced missiles DO try to aim just ahead of the flight path, at least IR ones. They are trying to hit the fuselage, not blow up in the engine nozzle if fired from behind. On the other hand, newer ones can be fired from ahead, so....

Originally posted by Chuckg
> You didn't catch the "or" in there?

I did -- but since I explicitly cited the rule that says that even simple Vehicles may hold their actions, your point that missiles cannot delay is alerady proven wrong.

So leaving out the 'or' did precisely jack and squat to misrepresent your argument... said argument was DOA to begin with.

[snip]
> Are you saying the missiles always hold their action? Is that
> part of their programming?

I am saying that any reasonable portrayal of a homing missile is "you move, then missile moves". It's supposed to be mindlessly following you, after all. To follow implies to wait and see where you're going first.

So yes, I would say that the missile always holds its action until after it's target has taken one... or it's next action is about to come up, whichever comes first.

[gewing]

Missiles can be evaded, but the chances are smaller. Longer range helps, because at extreme ranges the missiles are coasting, with their engines burnt out. This means that while they are still moving fast, they cannot sustain aggressive manuevers. The other problem they have is that though they can pull 20-50 G turns (depending on the missile) they are moving much faster than the plane in many situations. A well timed jink is rather likely to result in the missile not being in the EFFECTIVE kill radius of the warhead.

This is the advantage most flying supers would have IF THEY CAN SPOT THE MISSILE INCOMING. Even fighter pilots are usually killed by the attack they don't see coming. given the range and speed of missiles, seeing them coming can be very tough.

Originally posted by Chuckg
> It absolutely misrepresented my statement.

Not at all. You made a point about missiles 'stopping in mid-air', and I had never even hinted at such a thing. So when I objected to that, that's not mispresentation... at least, not by *me*.

[snip]
> In movies, they are always showing missiles being
> outmaneuvered by daring pilots and the like.

"Top Gun" wasn't a movie? In that, we see daring pilots getting slammed with air-to-air missiles all the time... all the daring maneuvering is them using Vehicle Evade maneuvers to try and keep the radar lock-on from being established in the first place. Once the opposing pilot gets tone, it's all over and only a miracle saves 'em.

Dude, even the action movie genre does not support you here, much less real life. Unless somebody wants to claim that 'Top Gun' is *not* the archetypical action movie about fighters and fighter pilots.

[gewing]

Good point. He is a very slippery target. Area effect is standard on air to air missiles.

Originally posted by Gary
Not when it comes to movements. They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do.



Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison. *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can *easily* move out of the way. I was refuting your jet vs jet example. Thanks for agreeing.



At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast enough to jink more than a very little. Unlike Firewing who can flit about pretty much as much as he wants.

Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target as maneuverable as Firewing.