Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[gewing]

I think much of the time he would be surprised, just due to range and speed of attacks.

I can just see him having his duel, or causing some property damage, finishing up, and as he starts to fly away taking it in the shorts by the response fighters. On the other hand, in my part of the country, If supers started causing big problems and doing the standard "I am unstoppable" posturing, they had better be. There are a lot of deer hunters, and a 30-06 to the head can slow a lot of heros down. That is why I Like 13 + resistant defense.

Originally posted by Agent X
I don't think most of us have accepted the idea of Firewing being surprised.

[gewing]

A pilot flying at mach speeds who tries a sudden manuever will probably no longer be flying. G forces at high speeds are NASTY. Modern fighters can stand 10-12 gs. pilots only up to 9, usually.

Originally posted by Chuckg
> Not when it comes to movements.

Cite the rule.

> They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do.

Yes, and so?

[snip]
> Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison.
> *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can
> *easily* move out of the way.

Wrong again. Seeking missiles are used against targets moving at combat velocities every day -- in ground attack scenarios.

Does the slow tank easily dodge the NC-moving radar-guided Hellfire? Hell, does the fast SUV?

All of you are massively underrating just what seeking weapons "really" do -- both IRL, /and/ in action movie genre, /and/ in even the superheroic genre. Cripes, even the mighty Avengers Quinjet has gotten clocked by SAMS and air-to-air missiles on several occasions... as in, 'every time the radar jamming didn't work'.

There is a reason modern air-to-air warfare relies so much on your EW systems -- once the other guy gets tone, the fight's usually over. Why else do you think the most expensive part of any combat aircraft is the electronics?

[snip]
> At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast
> enough to jink more than a very little.

At mach speeds, the slightest twitch of your joystick will send your aircraft several hundred meters sideways before you can blink. You'd think that would be a /better/ dodge than simply stepping five hexes to the left.

[snip]
> Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target
> as maneuverable as Firewing.

Oh yes they have, quite often -- they're called "helicopters". They fly as fast or faster than Firewing, they have a turn mode of zero, and they can hover. As maneuverable as any super! More maneuverable than Firewing, AAMOF... he has a Turn Mode, they don't.

You know what the technical term is for a helicopter that's got a seeking missile locked onto it from an F-18?

"Target". And then, very rapidly thereafter, "Wreckage".

[gewing]

I would say that firewing can survive most of the time. He had better be pretty lucky if he makes a habit of it though.

Sooner or later the "Golden BB" is going to get him, almost no matter what he does.

Originally posted by Agent X
I'm beginning to think there are serious character design flaws in CKC. Firewing can fly as fast as light in space but flies 154mph in an atmosphere. Warlord, the military power armor guy, doesn't have any telescopic vision. Dr. Destroyer has no knockback resistance. It seems like some little details here and there got missed.

Firewing, seems like most of us agree he can handle conventional military stuff.

Gravitar looks like she's got the defenses to laugh off the conventional military.

Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, heh.

No problems for Warlord if he's got his Flying Fortress.

Istvatha V'Han is bringing her own military.

I'm thinking the Crowns of Krim wouldn't have too much trouble either. Dark Seraph, for example, has Desolid.

[gewing]

SORRY GUYS, I was on a mil-tech mister PICKY roll, I guess.

[lemming]

Originally posted by gewing
The 30mm cannon would probably hit just before the rockets, taking down the force wall probably, due to the AP rounds every 3rd shell.

Just a nit pick. The FW wouldn't slow down the shells since it's transparent to physical. And wouldn't go down either.and since you haven't seen his writeup, that explains it.

Lot's of nice info in your posts though.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing
I think much of the time he would be surprised, just due to range and speed of attacks.

I can just see him having his duel, or causing some property damage, finishing up, and as he starts to fly away taking it in the shorts by the response fighters. On the other hand, in my part of the country, If supers started causing big problems and doing the standard "I am unstoppable" posturing, they had better be. There are a lot of deer hunters, and a 30-06 to the head can slow a lot of heros down. That is why I Like 13 + resistant defense.

In the context of my statement - Firewing would be assuming some pretty heavy duty military response if he's out in the open in the air threatening a target the military would want to send fighters after him for.

[gewing]

If the forcewall doesn't slow down the shells, how high are his basic defenses? the mix of AP and HEI from the cannon would be pretty nasty, imo.

Originally posted by lemming
Just a nit pick. The FW wouldn't slow down the shells since it's transparent to physical. And wouldn't go down either.and since you haven't seen his writeup, that explains it.

Lot's of nice info in your posts though.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing
If the forcewall doesn't slow down the shells, how high are his basic defenses? the mix of AP and HEI from the cannon would be pretty nasty, imo.

Could you give us a clear, organized pointed out build for these attacks? You are limiting me to game mechanics and you are talking "real world" - it just doesn't mesh. I have to know how you would really build this thing.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Agent X
Could you give us a clear, organized pointed out build for these attacks? You are limiting me to game mechanics and you are talking "real world" - it just doesn't mesh. I have to know how you would really build this thing.

Well, TUV has a 25mm AutoCannon at 4d6+1 RKA. AP optional.

gewing listed at 3 1/2 AP further up.

Which would mess up the book version of Firewing at a 30 or 40 PD depending if AP. However, mine would be a bit tougher versus bullets anyway. Human Torch is shown to be pretty immune to bullets.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by lemming
Well, TUV has a 25mm AutoCannon at 4d6+1 RKA. AP optional.

gewing listed at 3 1/2 AP further up.

Which would mess up the book version of Firewing at a 30 or 40 PD depending if AP. However, mine would be a bit tougher versus bullets anyway. Human Torch is shown to be pretty immune to bullets.

The stuff I saw in the book, didn't really make me think Firewing had much to fear.

[gewing]

Originally posted by Agent X
Could you give us a clear, organized pointed out build for these attacks? You are limiting me to game mechanics and you are talking "real world" - it just doesn't mesh. I have to know how you would really build this thing.

Did I limit you to game build? Sorry, I was just throwing ideas out.

I actually haven't had a chance to really play in a year or more. my books are 22 miles away. a high velocity 30mm cannon should do at least 2, probably 3 damage classes more than a .50 caliber, just based on energy. iirc the .50 is about 10-12,000 foot pounds of energy, while the 30x173mm on the A-10 is around 100,000 foot pounds of energy, not including velocity from the plane or high explosive content.



The problem I have always had is that military technology has fewer point limitations than most supers. The Government can spend how many active points???

Most people are perfectly willing to accept limitations and simplifications on "real world" technology for play balance. Usually I am, but I get my hackles up when people go too far. Sorry.

[Max Callahan]

Originally posted by gewing
Did I limit you to game build? Sorry, I was just throwing ideas out.

I actually haven't had a chance to really play in a year or more. my books are 22 miles away. a high velocity 30mm cannon should do at least 2, probably 3 damage classes more than a .50 caliber, just based on energy. iirc the .50 is about 10-12,000 foot pounds of energy, while the 30x173mm on the A-10 is around 100,000 foot pounds of energy, not including velocity from the plane or high explosive content.

The 30mm on the Apache helicopter in TUV is 4 1/2d6 AP +1 stun mult. But it fires 30mm x 117 rounds and they are straight cartridges. The gun on the A-10 fires 30 x 173 mm rounds with necked cartridges, so they have about twice the charge of the rounds the Apache fires, which I read as +1 DC. For my own write up I've been calling it 5d6 -1 AP

If there is anything Firewing really has to watch out for it's the Hellfire missiles on the Apache, they are 4d6 2xAP explosion. Being explosion they will probably hit, and being 2xAP they will do 4 body on the average hit.

[Gary]

Of course if it were a helicopter instead of a jet, Firewing should win easily. The helicopter has to be close enough range for Firewing to be able to attack back. And Firewing (30 dex 7 spd) goes first and more often than your typical pilot.

[Kristopher]

Can Firewing hit a moving target from several miles away? Because the Apache can, using the Hellfire missiles.

As for the A-10's GAU-8A and the 30mm rounds:

From almost a mile away, a one-second burst from the cannon will put about 40 rounds into an area the size of a main battle tank. USAF considers half a dozen rounds on average to be sufficient to kill a tank.

And for the most lethal of those rounds, it's not just raw mass and velocity that makes them lethal. Inside the 30mm aluminum shell is a 15mm depleted uranium penetrator. Basically, each round applies enough force to lift a fully loaded tractor-trailer one foot straight up to an area about the size of a US penny. The DU becomes molten upon impact, and slices through the target's armor like a hot knife through butter. If you watch slow-motion film, you can see some of the rounds come out through the far side of the targetted tank.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Can Firewing hit a moving target from several miles away? Because the Apache can, using the Hellfire missiles.

He can deal with the missiles the same way as with Sidewinders or Amraams. By exploding them before they reach him, jinking, or his Force Wall damage shield. To use the cannon, the choppers have to get close, and that's suicide vs Firewing.