Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

**Kristopher** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Gary
He can deal with the missiles the same way as with Sidewinders or Amraams. By exploding them before they reach him, jinking, or his Force Wall damage shield. To use the cannon, the choppers have to get close, and that's suicide vs Firewing.

How many? From 4 sides at once? Does he have any idea that he's about to be bombarded by enough firepower to reduce several dozen tanks to useless husks? Each Apache can carry 16 Hellfire missiles, and fire them in rapid succession if need be.

And you might be underestimating the range of the 30mm cannon.

**Gary** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Kristopher
How many? From 4 sides at once? Each Apache can carry 16, and fire them in rapid succession if need be.

And you might be underestimating the range of the 30mm cannon.

How many choppers are we talking about?

Also, remember that Apaches are fragile. A few of them were shot down in Iraq by people with RPGs and AK-47s. Somehow, I think that Firewing can do a little better than ordinary guerillas and soldiers.

**Kristopher** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:49 PM

Quite a few, given the numbers they usually operate in.

What is the range of Firewing's largest attack? If I'm doing the math right, a 100 AP attack only has a range of about 1640 feet, which leaves the Apaches plenty of cushion. In fact, the Apaches can probably surprise Firewing, given the range of the Hellfire and the typical tactics employed by Apaches in the field.

EDIT: Actually, I think it's 3281 feet, but that still leaves the Apache with plenty of cushion using the Hellfire. And unlike most supers, Apaches, A-10s, and M-1A2s can actually hit with their attacks basically out to that maximum range. Tons and tons of levels to offset range penalties.

**Max Callahan** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Gary
He can deal with the missiles the same way as with Sidewinders or Amraams. By exploding them before they reach him, jinking, or his Force Wall damage shield. To use the cannon, the choppers have to get close, and that's suicide vs Firewing.

Going strictly by the write ups he can't do any of thoes things. The Helfires on the Apache are just a straight RKA. not a vehicle with and RKA like the Sparrow (and all the missles it stands in for) so his force wall/damage shield doesn't help, and it's an explosion, so he'll have to dive for cover to get away, and he wouln't be able to dive again when the second helicopter shoots at him (presuming there is a second helicopter) . Now the Helfire is just a straight RKA, no increaded range mod, or no range mod or anyhing, so it's only good out to 750", and with the Apaches OCV it's only really good out to at most 128" And at those distances firewing is going to kill them very dead in return, but if there are enough of them (like 6 or so) he's going to be in trouble.

**Kristopher** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Max Callahan
Going strictly by the write ups he can't do any of thoes things. The Helfires on the Apache are just a straight RKA. not a vehicle with and RKA like the Sparrow (and all the missles it stands in for) so his force wall/damage shield doesn't help, and it's an explosion, so he'll have to dive for cover to get away, and he wouln't be able to dive again when the second helicopter shoots at him (presuming there is a second helicopter) . Now the Helfire is just a straight RKA, no increaded range mod, or no range mod or anyhing, so it's only good out to 750", and with the Apaches OCV it's only really good out to at most 128" And at those distances firewing is going to kill them very dead in return, but if there are enough of them (like 6 or so) he's going to be in trouble.

If they only gave the Hellfire a range of .93 miles, and made it imposible for the Apache to hit anything at that range, then they really screwed up.

**Gary** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:55 PM

If there are 6 of them, Firewing is probably in trouble. But he can handle 1 or 2.

And if Hellfires really had several mile range, they would have to be built as vehicles which means they can be shot down before reaching him. Otherwise, they have to get close, in which case Firewing will nuke them.

**Gary** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Kristopher
If they only gave the Hellfire a range of .93 miles, and made it imposible for the Apache to hit anything at that range, then they really screwed up.

You can say the same thing about Firewing, with a range of only 500" and wimpy attacks relative to military grade hardware. Both sides have to use the writeups as is.

**Kristopher** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:58 PM

Hellfires really do have a range of several miles. Apaches really do hit things with them at a range of several miles, and quite reliably too. And typically, the target never sees it coming.

**gewing** · Feb 6th, '04, 10:59 PM

He has a good chance, but helicopters are better at hiding, and the hellfire is MORE accurate, though he might notice the laser illumination dot. Also, most hellfires are Shaped charges, so they need a direct hit, though imo they should also have a NON AP explosion also.
And hellfire has a 6 kilometer range.

Originally posted by Gary
Of course if it were a helicopter instead of a jet, Firewing should win easily. The helicopter has to be close enough range for Firewing to be able to attack back. And Firewing (30 dex 7 spd) goes first and more often than your typical pilot.

**Kristopher** · Feb 6th, '04, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Gary
You can say the same thing about Firewing, with a range of only 500" and wimpy attacks relative to military grade hardware. Both sides have to use the writeups as is.

There's a major difference. The Apache and the Hellfire are both very real, and a write-up that doesn't translate their real-world capabilities into the game is _wrong_.

**Gary** · Feb 6th, '04, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Kristopher
There's a major difference. The Apache and the Hellfire are both very real, and a write-up that doesn't translate their real-world capabilities into the game is _wrong_.

So is a writeup that allows Firewing to travel through intersteller space at 365 times the speed of light, but limits him to about 160 miles/hour maximum speed on Earth.

**Max Callahan** · Feb 6th, '04, 11:03 PM

I'm thinking that the helfire would probably be better represented as a vehicle (at very least for the continuity of having all missiles be vehicles), and then having the 4d6 2xAP be single target with something like a 2d6 explosion linked, Because while it does explode, it's a shaped explosion.

**Max Callahan** · Feb 6th, '04, 11:05 PM

And also let me say that for quick reference on military hardware I love the guys at the Federation of American Scientists
http://fas.org/man/index.html

**Gary** · Feb 6th, '04, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Kristopher
Hellfires really do have a range of several miles. Apaches really do hit things with them at a range of several miles, and quite reliably too. And typically, the target never sees it coming.

Don't they usually hit big slow negative DCV things such as tanks?