Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Metaphysician]

Personally, I'm inclined to just treat shaped charges as a straight RKA ( no AP, unless you think DU sabot is APx2 ). The "armor piercing" nature of the weapon is covered by its straight size, and any explosive side effects are left to DM adjudication unless the weapon is explicitly designed to generate shrapnel.

[gewing]

The problem is that Shaped charges are also used in US service as the only HE round of the tanks, because their Blast effect is pretty good. Not as good as a HESH round, or a Russian HE-Frag round, but they are still an anti-armor round, with the HE effect as a side benefit. Personally I think we should use a Dual purpose with a fragmentation sleeve or a straight HE/HE-Frag also. Particularly as there are relatively FEW tanks for the military to target now. The US tank ammo loadout was predicated on a war against the Warsaw Pact, where their tanks would outnumber ours by a very large number. Tanks were to kill tanks, everything else was secondary. Now we will most likely mostly be shooting at bunkers, buildings, trucks, groups of infantry...

I keep wondering if a 75-90 millimeter gun with an autoloader and a LOT more than 40 rounds would make more sense for near term. Problem is that those would not penetrate a modern tank frontally.

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Personally, I'm inclined to just treat shaped charges as a straight RKA ( no AP, unless you think DU sabot is APx2 ). The "armor piercing" nature of the weapon is covered by its straight size, and any explosive side effects are left to DM adjudication unless the weapon is explicitly designed to generate shrapnel.

[Kristopher]

re: the existence of atmospheric drag:

Originally posted by Agent X
That's not consistent with comics.

So. Effing. What?

Anyway, nothing can be consistent with comics, they're not even consistent with themselves. Not even the same writer on the same run of the same comic dealing with the same characters, quite often.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
re: the existence of atmospheric drag:



So. Effing. What?

Anyway, nothing can be consistent with comics, they're not even consistent with themselves. Not even the same writer on the same run of the same comic dealing with the same characters, quite often.

You need to read more and you need to pay attention to the commonalities that mark consistencies in character concept.

[zornwil]

Sorry to do this, but this is one of those threads I missed while too busy working. But it's one of those big ones so...if someone wouldn't mind...what was so interesting about this, before I start wading through >400 posts?

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by zornwil
Sorry to do this, but this is one of those threads I missed while too busy working. But it's one of those big ones so...if someone wouldn't mind...what was so interesting about this, before I start wading through >400 posts?

Flame war.

Multiple people argued over whether superhumans should win against the military. There are lots of arguments about how/where/why supers would fight the army. There are lots of arguments about how tough vehicles should be. There are lots of arguments over what tactics supers could/would employ, as well as which tactics the military could/would employ.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Flame war.

Multiple people argued over whether superhumans should win against the military. There are lots of arguments about how/where/why supers would fight the army. There are lots of arguments about how tough vehicles should be. There are lots of arguments over what tactics supers could/would employ, as well as which tactics the military could/would employ.

Thanks. From the length I figured there was some "debate". The synopsis doesn't sound thrilling (to me) as I don't get into that sort of scenario often enough. Good to know where to go if I run into it though.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by gewing
The problem is that Shaped charges are also used in US service as the only HE round of the tanks, because their Blast effect is pretty good. Not as good as a HESH round, or a Russian HE-Frag round, but they are still an anti-armor round, with the HE effect as a side benefit. Personally I think we should use a Dual purpose with a fragmentation sleeve or a straight HE/HE-Frag also. Particularly as there are relatively FEW tanks for the military to target now. The US tank ammo loadout was predicated on a war against the Warsaw Pact, where their tanks would outnumber ours by a very large number. Tanks were to kill tanks, everything else was secondary. Now we will most likely mostly be shooting at bunkers, buildings, trucks, groups of infantry...

I keep wondering if a 75-90 millimeter gun with an autoloader and a LOT more than 40 rounds would make more sense for near term. Problem is that those would not penetrate a modern tank frontally.

The future(20 years from now) direction of tank armament is likely to be a railgun of between 30 and 80 mm caliber, firing a solid slug at about 3-5 times the velocity of current tank rounds. I assume there might be some kind of HE/anti-personnel secondary weapon. like a grenade launcher, mortar, or medium autocannon.

[Metaphysician]

The problem is that Shaped charges are also used in US service as the only HE round of the tanks, because their Blast effect is pretty good. Not as good as a HESH round, or a Russian HE-Frag round, but they are still an anti-armor round, with the HE effect as a side benefit. Personally I think we should use a Dual purpose with a fragmentation sleeve or a straight HE/HE-Frag also. Particularly as there are relatively FEW tanks for the military to target now. The US tank ammo loadout was predicated on a war against the Warsaw Pact, where their tanks would outnumber ours by a very large number. Tanks were to kill tanks, everything else was secondary. Now we will most likely mostly be shooting at bunkers, buildings, trucks, groups of infantry...

Well, if thats what you used them mostly for, I'd write them as a linked attack, with both the main 6d6 RKA, and a linked 4d6 RKA Explosion. Would make it pricier, but compared to the 8d6 AP RKA sabot round. . .

I keep wondering if a 75-90 millimeter gun with an autoloader and a LOT more than 40 rounds would make more sense for near term. Problem is that those would not penetrate a modern tank frontally.

How about a light tank designed to fight light armor, provide infantry support, and be airlifted easily, as a supplement to the Abrams??

Like the cancelled M8. . .

[gewing]

About what I figure too. should be useful for anti-aircraft too.

The future(20 years from now) direction of tank armament is likely to be a railgun of between 30 and 80 mm caliber, firing a solid slug at about 3-5 times the velocity of current tank rounds. I assume there might be some kind of HE/anti-personnel secondary weapon. like a grenade launcher, mortar, or medium autocannon.

[gewing]

Actually, why not just make 4d6 Exp, with the AP not applying. Complex, but..

M-8 was good, but look up the old "RDF light tank" ideas.

Well, if thats what you used them mostly for, I'd write them as a linked attack, with both the main 6d6 RKA, and a linked 4d6 RKA Explosion. Would make it pricier, but compared to the 8d6 AP RKA sabot round. . .

How about a light tank designed to fight light armor, provide infantry support, and be airlifted easily, as a supplement to the Abrams??

Like the cancelled M8. . .

[Mutant for Hire]

Genre Superheroes versus Military:
Most comic book writers, having little military experience, tend to write the military as if it were still the 1950's and the Cold War, at least in terms of equipment. Nor are they at all familiar with military methodology. Strictly speaking, our modern military isn't Silver Age genre military. So if you're going to toss genre into it, then most of this debate actually goes out the window as we're dealing with a simplified less well equipped and trained military than what exists in real life. That's perfectly fine, if you want to make a world that is in fact dependent on superheroes.

Realistic Superhero versus Military:
In this case, you have to deal with the fact that most superheroes are not terribly realistic, or they're not built realistically. The existance of essentially vigilante paranormals dealing with paranormal threats isn't realistic period. In the end, the law enforcement community would develop their own paranormal branch to deal with the issue of paranormal threats. We won't even get into the implications of supertech.

At this point the whole debate is about genre superheroes versus realistic military, which in some ways ends up being an apples and oranges debate.

[zornwil]

What's with all the resurrected threads lately? Is the power of "this thread is like..." so powerful?

[lemming]

What's with all the resurrected threads lately? Is the power of "this thread is like..." so powerful?

The Hero board is dabbling with Necromancy!

[Metaphysician]

In any case, I thought over all the big M Master villains. Every one of them would be able to handle military forces. Gravitar can solo all but the largest conventional force with her powerset. Takofanes and Doctor Destroyer can do the same, plus having large armies of minions. Mechanon can take all but the largest conventional firepower, has a nasty trump card versus most modern weapons ( the cyberkinesis ), and has minion robots of his own. The Warlord has the troops and vehicles to engage smaller military units in conventional engagements. Istvatha V'Han and, to a *much* lesser extent, the Supreme Serpent, can sic high tech military forces of their own on any conventional army. Teleios can breed an entire army of his own, including bio-monstrousities.

Seems like it fits well enough to me.