Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> If you'd been paying attention, I was criticizing Steve Long's > writeups. Page 326 of the 5th Edition rulebook:

> "It is armed and equipped with a main gun (105mm cannon,
> RKA 8D6, Explosion, 55 charges)..."

> As I said earlier "I didn't buy TUV, because the writeups in
> that book are similarly flawed" (or something to that effect).
> As I said, the US Army's tanks don't come with HE rounds.
> Thus, the 5th Edition writeup is seriously flawed because it
> appears to mimic such a weapon.

You know, a 'major military gear buff' such as yourself should have remembered that the original main gun of the M1A1 Abrams MBT /was/ the 105mm tube... which *did* have the 105mm HE round. At one time. The 120mm Rhinemetall tube was not put on the Abrams until the late -A1 refits and the -A2s.

Steve Long's original writeups can be criticized for being a few years behind the times... AAMOF, I think they were copied over from the 4e "Hero Almanac" writeups, which /did/ come out at around the time that the -A1 was still using the old M-60 tube with HE and etc...

/sigh/

And yet you criticize Steve Long's writeups by saying that they didn't match the performance of our tanks in Iraq, when even the casual Tom Clancy reader would know that our tanks in Iraq had the 120mm main gun and the description you referred to was explicitly talking about the 105mm!!!

My faith in your credentials as a major military gear buff is now dead.

I don't care if it's dead or not. I know that the 105 mm gun was used back in the late 80s. But it damn sure wasn't 8D6 RKA Explosion. It also wasn't copied directly from the 4th Edition Hero Almanac 2. That writeup was a 5D6+1 RKA double AP with (I believe) a +1 Increased Stun Multiple. I'd have to go and check. In fact, other than that Almanac 2 writeup, there weren't any prior publications of Abrams tank main guns in Hero (the 4th Edition BBB had the same stats for the tank's hull, but had no writeup for the gun). The 8D6 RKA Explosion is something completely new to Hero 5th Edition. That scrap of text I quoted was first published in 2002.

Understand what I'm saying? Understand now why I have virtually ZERO faith in Steve Long's vehicle writeups? He failed to get the basic attributes of the tank right.

Now, I wanna see your response on my other points.

[Chuckg]

> Unless the military knows exactly where a superhuman
> will be at exactly the right time, they won't be able to
> bring even a fraction of that firepower to bear.

1) The whole idea of "superhumans vs. the military" presumes that such a fight is actually going on. If it's "the military tries to find supers while they hide in the city", well, that's not a military mission, that's a PRIMUS mission. We've already said that in-thread.

2) You're talking about infantry deployment. If Firewing tried to, for example, strafe the Washington Monument, there'd be F-18s out of Bolling AFB in five minutes.

Sure, it takes only 2-3 Turns for the actual fight. But even "normal" Champions campaigns RP taking time to arrive and leave. Unless your team has a mass MegaScale teleporter for a member, natch.

3) Having already said a minimum of three times that the military is not suited for every mission and that both superheroes and agencies such as UNTIL and PRIMUS would still have no dearth of work to do even if we agreed that none but the most megapowerful superbeings could take on a large field formation and live, why are you still harping on a point that was already settled an hour ago?

[Chuckg]

> I don't care if it's dead or not.

Don't confuse you with facts, your mind is made up, eh?

[snip]
> It also wasn't copied directly from the 4th Edition Hero
> Almanac 2.

Fair enough.

> The 8D6 RKA Explosion is something completely new to Hero
> 5th Edition. That scrap of text I quoted was first published
> in 2002.

So? It was still obviously referring to the -A1 series of tanks, seeing as how the words "105mm" were there, and there has never been a 105mm mounted on an -A2 model.

> Understand what I'm saying? Understand now why I have
> virtually ZERO faith in Steve Long's vehicle writeups? He
> failed to get the basic attributes of the tank right.

Actually, he was fairly accurate on them. It's merely your obtuse insistence that he was talking about the same tank and same gun system that you used for your example.

Which is why TUV updated to the -A2 series 120mm gun, natch. Oh, wait, you didn't bother to read TUV. You simply read one entry and assumed forever after that Steve Long could never be right about anything.

As far as answering 'your other points' -- are you even bothering to read anything that isn't you?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Has it occurred to you yet that there are enormous amounts of plots which *can't* be fixed by throwing an army at them?

Or are your games only about kicking the crap out of the target du jour?

When you want to kill people and break things, call out the divisions of guys with guns. When you want to take down giant monsters, call out the people who own strategic bombers and cruise missiles. When you want to lock down a small nation, send in the Marines.

But when you want to keep Teleios from replacing half of the Congressional Subcommittee on Bio-Ethics with clones, call the Champions. When you want to stop GRAB from stealing the Crown Jewels and mooning the queen, call the New Knights. When Viperia's busy throwing a hissy fit in Mall Of America because Hot Topics ran out of her favorite "alternative" lipstick shade, call Unity. Etc, etc.

Of course not. It never occurred to me. I've only been playing this game for more than a decade and I only collected comic books from 1975 into the late 80s/early 90s. Chuckg, these statements aren't necessary.

[Chuckg]

/rolleyes/

Re: your point about destroying buildings and vehicular knockback... apparently, somebody forgot that the 'Real Weapon' disad can, at DM's discretion, apply at no cost to real-world weapons... like tank cannons.

Which would cover both the hotel not collapsing (AP projectile makes only little hole, Real Weapon) and the tanks not taking massive knockback (DU either blows through or sticks in, but doesn't push, Real Weapon).

The more detail you go into, the less I am impressed with your knowledge of either the rules or the vehicles.

[Chuckg]

"At some point, we might as well play superagents vs. the supervillains and laugh when the superheroes offer to help."

-- Agent X

Yup, my statements were necessary all right.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> If you'd been paying attention, I was criticizing Steve Long's > writeups. Page 326 of the 5th Edition rulebook:

> "It is armed and equipped with a main gun (105mm cannon,
> RKA 8D6, Explosion, 55 charges)..."

> As I said earlier "I didn't buy TUV, because the writeups in
> that book are similarly flawed" (or something to that effect).
> As I said, the US Army's tanks don't come with HE rounds.
> Thus, the 5th Edition writeup is seriously flawed because it
> appears to mimic such a weapon.

You know, a 'major military gear buff' such as yourself should have remembered that the original main gun of the M1A1 Abrams MBT /was/ the 105mm tube... which *did* have the 105mm HE round. At one time. The 120mm Rhinemetall tube was not put on the Abrams until the late -A1 refits and the -A2s.

Steve Long's original writeups can be criticized for being a few years behind the times... AAMOF, I think they were copied over from the 4e "Hero Almanac" writeups, which /did/ come out at around the time that the -A1 was still using the old M-60 tube with HE and etc...

/sigh/

And yet you criticize Steve Long's writeups by saying that they didn't match the performance of our tanks in Iraq, when even the casual Tom Clancy reader would know that our tanks in Iraq had the 120mm main gun and the description you referred to was explicitly talking about the 105mm!!!

My faith in your credentials as a major military gear buff is now dead.

Crass.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> Unless the military knows exactly where a superhuman
> will be at exactly the right time, they won't be able to
> bring even a fraction of that firepower to bear.

1) The whole idea of "superhumans vs. the military" presumes that such a fight is actually going on. If it's "the military tries to find supers while they hide in the city", well, that's not a military mission, that's a PRIMUS mission. We've already said that in-thread.

Well, I'm not arguing that the fight would never take place. I'm saying that when the fight does take place, the nature of superhumans (and the nature of the military) will determine the nature of the battle. In this sense, superhumans have a huge advantage regarding deployment speed.

In other words, Firewing may fight a tank. But he's not going to ever have to fight a fully coordinated tank platoon with infantry support. The nature of superhumans lets them choose the battlefield.

[b]2) You're talking about infantry deployment. If Firewing tried to, for example, strafe the Washington Monument, there'd be F-18s out of Bolling AFB in five minutes.

Sure, it takes only 2-3 Turns for the actual fight. But even "normal" Champions campaigns RP taking time to arrive and leave. Unless your team has a mass MegaScale teleporter for a member, natch.[//b]

I will grant you one point. In our game, we do have mega-movement powers, so I'm sort of assuming that the super team will as well. I prefer to think of most super teams as faster than the old 4th Edition Champions, where Defender had something like 15 mph flight. "You! Kid on the bike! Come back here! Don't pedal so fast!"

Ogre makes his escape on a moped. "Ha ha, Champions! You'll never catch me now!" (rings the bell)
"He's right! Too... fast!!! Armor... jets... can't keep... up!"

3) Having already said a minimum of three times that the military is not suited for every mission and that both superheroes and agencies such as UNTIL and PRIMUS would still have no dearth of work to do even if we agreed that none but the most megapowerful superbeings could take on a large field formation and live, why are you still harping on a point that was already settled an hour ago?

I'm wondering what role you do think the military will assume? I can't think of them being well-equipped at all to deal with superhuman menaces. I can see them fighting Viper, or maybe fighting Dr Destroyer's robots and goons, but not much else.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> I don't care if it's dead or not.

Don't confuse you with facts, your mind is made up, eh?

[snip]
> It also wasn't copied directly from the 4th Edition Hero
> Almanac 2.

Fair enough.

> The 8D6 RKA Explosion is something completely new to Hero
> 5th Edition. That scrap of text I quoted was first published
> in 2002.

So? It was still obviously referring to the -A1 series of tanks, seeing as how the words "105mm" were there, and there has never been a 105mm mounted on an -A2 model.

> Understand what I'm saying? Understand now why I have
> virtually ZERO faith in Steve Long's vehicle writeups? He
> failed to get the basic attributes of the tank right.

Actually, he was fairly accurate on them. It's merely your obtuse insistence that he was talking about the same tank and same gun system that you used for your example.

Which is why TUV updated to the -A2 series 120mm gun, natch. Oh, wait, you didn't bother to read TUV. You simply read one entry and assumed forever after that Steve Long could never be right about anything.

As far as answering 'your other points' -- are you even bothering to read anything that isn't you?

You seem ignorant of the degree of familiarity Champsguy has when it comes to Steve Long. Perhaps, you should ask some old-timers about Champsguy's role on the older boards.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Yup, my statements were necessary all right.

No. What GV was describing would pretty much make superheroes useless.

[Chuckg]

> Well, I'm not arguing that the fight would never take place.
> I'm saying that when the fight does take place, the nature
> of superhumans (and the nature of the military) will
> determine the nature of the battle. In this sense,
> superhumans have a huge advantage regarding deployment
> speed.

Oh, for the love of...

Yo, "major military buff". Deployment speed is only a factor if you're on the *OFFENSE*.

If the superhumans are picking the time and place of the battle, then obviously, the military is on the *DEFENSE*.

> In other words, Firewing may fight a tank. But he's not going
> to ever have to fight a fully coordinated tank platoon with
> infantry support.

Unless he's picking on that tank while it's still in the tank park at the base, he damn sure will... because when tanks deploy, they deploy in units. With infantry support, whenever they're near a built-up area. Sending a tank out into the field all alone with no other friendlies nearby is considered "Hey enemy! Please kill my tank!"

Addendum -- even the mighty M1A2 Abrams, considered the most ridiculously over-armored AFV in the world -- and I speak of the IRL opinion of it, not the game writup -- dies if you hit it in the right spot on the flank or rear aspect with a sufficient anti-vehicle weapon. Modern MBTs are built very much on a "This Side Towards Enemy" design philosophy.

So whenever possible, tanks move /at least/ in pairs... so that they can cover each other's backs. Lone tank = vulnerable. Tankers hate vulnerability. It makes them feel very edgy.

> The nature of superhumans lets them choose the
> battlefield.

At which point, the military has both the disadvantages and the advantages of playing for the defense.

[snip]
> I will grant you one point. In our game, we do have mega-
> movement powers, so I'm sort of assuming that the super
> team will as well. I prefer to think of most super teams as
> faster than the old 4th Edition Champions, where Defender
> had something like 15 mph flight. "You! Kid on the bike!
> Come back here! Don't pedal so fast!"

The "average" genre superteam uses a super-plane to get to and from battles, not a warp gate.

I hope you remembered to buy Mach 5+ for that plane, plus some really mondo radar invisibility, plus a force field -- or else some day, you might be two miles up and going along at MegaScale and finding out that even Brick-Man isn't gonna survive the long trip all the way down to the ground when some inconsiderate jerk stuffs a six-pack of Sidewinders up your afterburner.

(It is not a coincidence that my own team plane design *did* have Insvisibility to Radio, No Fringe -- a Darkness vs. Radio Jammer - a Force Field generator to back up the kendrium hull -- and enough MegaScale flight to leave even an SR-71 sucking its exhaust. It was specifically *designed* to give the laugh to the US Air Force.

But many superteams, even such notables as the X-Men or Avengers, don't get quite that paranoid in their superplane design.)

[snip]
> I'm wondering what role you do think the military will
> assume?

Vs. metahumans? Short of rampaging giant monsters, metahumans foolish enough to try and intervene on conventional battlefields, people who attack military bases, 'Team Achilles' style actions by elite spec-ops units trying to quietly zorch the more vulnerable metahumans as they sleep in what they think are their safe little beds, and extreme cases like "Doctor Destroyer vs. the US Navy, see 'Battle Of Destroyer Island' 1991", I don't see them assuming that large a role at all.

OTOH, if the superhumans are dumb enough to try and engage the military on /their/ home ground, they'd either be massively powerful or else they're going to be massively dead.

This is what, the fourth time I've said this or words to this effect?

[Metaphysician]

Why, pray tell me, should organizations be magically forbidden from having agents and operatives above a certain level of competence ( point value )?? Its not like they can have many; 350 points is more less the equivalent of an upper end special forces trooper. Besides, if you drop a squad of properly equipped Delta Force ( or VIPER Superhuman Combat Specialists. . . ) on the Champions, they *should* win.

[Chuckg]

BTW, I might remind people that "350 point agents" exist becuase those agenst have to pay points for their equipment.

If they didn't have to, they'd be more like 150 to 200 point Heroic or Very Competent Normals.

Which /are/ the competence levels guys like Navy SEALs and Recon Marines should be at. You ever /met/ any of those guys for real? With rare exceptions, they are so frighteningly competent and well-rounded that they're enough to make you believe in metahumans.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg
/rolleyes/

Re: your point about destroying buildings and vehicular knockback... apparently, somebody forgot that the 'Real Weapon' disad can, at DM's discretion, apply at no cost to real-world weapons... like tank cannons.

Which would cover both the hotel not collapsing (AP projectile makes only little hole, Real Weapon) and the tanks not taking massive knockback (DU either blows through or sticks in, but doesn't push, Real Weapon).

The more detail you go into, the less I am impressed with your knowledge of either the rules or the vehicles.

I know about the real weapon limitation. Steve Long introduced it in Dark Champions. So what? If Steve Long said that a tank cannon was a 100D6 RKA, would that be okay?

Using "real weapon" is a cop-out, because it totally divorces the weapon from any real-world effect. You should be able to read the stat sheet and determine with some degree of accuracy exactly what will happen if you shoot X target with it.

What will happen if you shoot a tank cannon at Hyperman's Fortress of Pimpitude? I should be able to tell by the stat sheet. There shouldn't be a limitation on the weapon that says "May not actually do this to any object".

An 8D6 RKA is powerful. It levels buildings. A blast or two from one of those can destroy the Golden Gate bridge. That's part of the fun of hurling around an 8D6 RKA. Tank cannons aren't 8D6 RKAs. They just don't do that much damage to the scenery. A 5 or 6D6 AP RKA is much more in tune with what that gun should do.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Why, pray tell me, should organizations be magically forbidden from having agents and operatives above a certain level of competence ( point value )?? Its not like they can have many; 350 points is more less the equivalent of an upper end special forces trooper. Besides, if you drop a squad of properly equipped Delta Force ( or VIPER Superhuman Combat Specialists. . . ) on the Champions, they *should* win.

No, they shouldn't.