Need help mage balancing!

[Yamo]

Here's my problem:

How do I balance magic-using and non-magic-using characters in a HERO fantasy game?

Making the magic-users buy all their spells with the standard Power rules doesn't seem to be the answer. Even if they purchase just a few moderately useful ones, it seems to require so many points that the fighting characters in the group can buy multiple 5 or 8-point CSLs for each spell the magic-users do. This quickly leads to competent wizards and absolutely GODLIKE swordswingers; an undesirable situation.

The main solution I can see to this is utilizing Power Frameworks, with a sizable Variable Point Pool or all spells purchased as part of a magic Multipower. This tends to have the opposite effect, however. The VPP method is a fairly cheap and largly one-time purchase and makes mages unbelievably flexible, even if they can only change during "downtime." The Multipower method has them purchasing powerful new spells for perhaps too little, 3-5 Real Points at most. Here we have mages as gods and everybody else as peons.

Any help?

[Old Man]

One thing you might consider is boosting some of the limitations. For example, concentrate 1/2 DCV is a huge limitation in FH that really ought to be worth more than a paltry -1/4, especially if you're playing with optional combat rules like critical hits and hit locations. On top of that, in FH you need to get used to the idea of just heaping on the limitations--incantations, gestures, concentrate, skill roll, foci, side effects, extra time.

If you want to go the framework route I'd go with the EC. Multipowers and VPPs make mages much too versatile. The only problem the EC has is it really forces the mage to keep all his spells at the same active point level, which in my book is not a good thing.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that mages tend to be far more powerful than any warrior under certain circumstances. They excel out of combat with powers like telepathy, detect, and healing. In combat they have to 'cheat', but can hold their own using flash, flight, desolid, area effects, and so on. In fact, flight and force field are too cheap for FH, IMO.

[Talon]

What Old Man said -- don't forget that mages get access to a huge range of special effects, while fighters do not. If mages can equal fighters in damage and defense, they are going to be too powerful, since they will also have lots of other abilities.

Put the fighter up against a mage with Invis, Flight, and Ego Attack and see how his CSLs help him.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Yamo: To refresh...

Making the magic-users buy all their spells with the standard Power rules doesn't seem to be the answer. Even if they purchase just a few moderately useful ones, it seems to require so many points that the fighting characters in the group can buy multiple 5 or 8-point CSLs for each spell the magic-users do. This quickly leads to competent wizards and absolutely GODLIKE swordswingers; an undesirable situation.

Boy...in my games I have the other problem (i.e. the mages are much grosser and everyone wants to play mystically enhanced fighters). I use the regular power rules, force certain limitations (RSR:Magic), and even force mages to spend a certain amount of points on spells. In my experience spells in FH are often PACKED with Limitations. This brings the cost down and closes the level gap. Especially spells not used in combat or ones started with Trigger where the casting can be "preped". In a way this naturally restricts the amount of big bang mage spells and makes it even easier to buy the out of combat spell...this is a good effect in my mind. Take a fire blast spell. You might get RSR, Focus:OAF w Fragile and Prep Time, Gestures, Incantations, etc. With a 50 Active point spell (maybe 8d6 with Reduced END) that's around 14 or 15 points for a pretty great thing.

Another thing that closes the fighter vs mage gap is the stat costs. Mages really only need INT. Fighters need more DEX, CON, BOD, Speed, Running, and WF skills than mages.

Just my take...

[AnotherSkip]

trigger is a good one, actually combining trigger with the D&D spell level system is a decent idea too (if you like that sort of thing).

Hmm my suggestion to add to the mix is low level VPPs are cool. in the 15 to 30 point range (i suggest you begin at 15 base for newbies and root up from there with xp) is really a decent level you can perform many minor magics but you are not going to be casting the "KILL ALL GODS" spell (tm). for the real powerhouse spells have them be built and paid just like individual powers.


And if any of you are shocked by the theory of a caster with different forms of spellcasting (and different power Skills to boot!) just keep in mind I have two of the three different forms of spellcasting in my Gm's game, Arcane (indi powers) and Spritiualism(VPP Sfx spirits)


almost forgot Spiritualism uses Pre based Power skill, Arcane uses Int based and Mentallism uses Ego based.

Ego is good for BOECV attacks, Pre is good for many things and int, Int ROCKS esp when you have scholar and massive numbers of Ks's!!!

[The Mad GM]

Active Point Cap! No spell can have more AP than 1/4 total points in character plus 1/3 INT(that's just an example, many other such ratios exist, like only up to 2xINT or EGO or PRS, or only up to EGO+INT, or whatever). That limits starting mages to about 40 points, roughly 8 damage classes, equal to a decent starting fighter. As they gain experience, it forces them to buy more spells rather than simply beef up the ones they already have, because the AP goes up slower than the points available. Or you could limit it lower, say 1/5 total points, and force them to rely on effects that only magic can do, like Flash, Invis, TK, etc.

I've never taken it this far, but you could simulate different colleges by having different ways of calculating the AP max. But you have to be careful, because it takes twice as long for EGO to go up as it does INT or PRS. And using total points means that they don't have to spend it on the required stats, the max goes up regardless, and they can spend points straight away for more spells. As long as the total cost multipliers for the stats are even, with the same fraction of total character points, it could work.

And you can enforce such a rule easily on MP or VPP, since the pool cost is the AP limit anyway.

[Chris Goodwin]

If you don't want superhero level mages, and also don't want superhero magically enhanced fighters, try this: require anyone who wants magical abilities to buy like a 10 point Power or Perk. Perhaps it is The Sight, or perhaps it is some funky genetic or spiritual thing. That'll burn up 10 of the mage's points, plus it makes it unlikely a non-mage is going to pay 10 points just for a couple of abilities. You might also see fewer mages overall.

[mudpyr8]

Seems like everywhere I turn I'm pimping my magic system. Ah well....

I feel your pain, and that is one of the reasons I stopped playing FH a while ago. When 5th came out, I really wanted to give it another shake. Me and my group sat down to figure out what we really wanted in a magic system. We already had an idea of the metaphysics of the world, and just needed to decide how the system(s) would work mechanically.

In the end we came up with the following types of power:

Divine Channels
Psionics
Wizardry
Druidic Power
Innate Power

The most common forms of power are Divine Channels and Wizardry. Additionally, we needed to ensure that not only each type was unique, but that they all mechanically were different.

For wizardry, this is what we have:

http://www.tekhed.com/hero/magic.pdf

The other stuff is there as well, but buried. I intend to make the other stuff more accessible, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Feedback is welcome, here or via email. Otherwise, consume and evacuate as necessary.

[Old Man]

Just throwing out some comments on previous posts:

I'm starting to not like the idea of active point caps. It would be a good idea if the power costs were balanced for heroic-level fantasy, but they're not. Drains and transfers are just prohibitively expensive, while flight and force field are far too cheap. I understand the concern with mages buying city-smashing spells, but it's incredibly hard to get more than -6 in limitations, even if you try. ECs have a similar effect in that they encourage mages to keep all spells at about the same AP level, without being a hard ceiling.

I don't think it's true that mages save points in stats. Every FH character needs to spend points in CON and BODY unless they can somehow be assured of not taking damage.

I usually ban the trigger limitation except in unusual circumstances. It makes it too easy for mages to stack lims without suffering any real penalty. Plus it feels like D&D. Charges are usually a better fit for those special effects that might need trigger, like alchemy.

I'm hoping 5th ed. FH will have a greatly expanded section on spell limitations. Side effects have lots of potential but the current "30 AP side effect" just doesn't cut it. Foci are another--there need to be guidelines for expensive and/or rare foci limitations.

[Markdoc]

My approach has been:
1) limit the spells magic users have access to - they have to spend considerable time out of the game researching if they want to make new ones, or they have to find them or pry them from the cold dead fingers of other mages. That lets me control what I let into the game, without setting absolute limits, which I detest

2) allow mages to use power frameworks. Since the VPP costs real points and the MP can only have the common limitations, that means high active point powers normally mean a significant outlay of points. These are points that the fighter types can spend on Stat.s and CSLs. This gives the mages flexibility at the cost of raw power.

3) allow everybody else to use power frameworks too. If the mage has a "powers of the ice gods" spell multipower, the thief can have a "cool thief tricks" multipower, giving him nifty tricks like better stealth, vanishing teleport, etc.

4) restrict points. If you give everyone 150-200 points, with power frameworks in the mix, expect heavy-duty characters.

5) enforce genre limitations. In my games, there are certain (fairly severe) limitations that all mages (PC and NPC) must take, which reduces their effectivenes sin combat (concentration has already been mentioned). A thiefly multipower could contain cool climbing, hiding and door-opening tricks - but not flight or energy blast. Remember all power frameworks must be approved by the GM. My approach is that it sounds like a cool genre thing, it will probably work. If confronted with a "Ki-energy-wielding mutant tiger-man multipower" I'd just say no.

cheers, Mark

[mudpyr8]

I agree with Markdoc. You have to enforce arbitrary limitations to preserve balance.

I use real point limits on spells, not active points. That way if you want to build a city shattering spell, you may need bulky, arranged foci, 1 week to cast and so on.

Additionally, for "special" (i.e. cheap) powers, I specify fewer limitaitons and require Difficult to Dispel x4 (+ 1/2). This increases the cost of the power, without being totally arbitrary, and makes those spells as difficult as attacks to dispel. A good solution all around.

[Vondy]

I've been requireing spells to:

take at least one full phase to cast
to require concentration
to cost long term endurace
to cost increased endurance for flash and dazzle spells (combat)
Skill roll

In addition spells should have other lims on them where appropriate:

incantations or gestures, or both
components (often expendable or expensive)
time or material restriction (during the equinox, not versus cold iron)
Side effects (i.e. channeling entropic energies is risky: 1 Pip Major Transformation, Cumulative, BOECV, AVLD "soul corruption")

This allows mages to have major hoo-doo spells without being able to cast them every five minutes, though some sort of mana system is a good idea (lotus powder, expendable crystals, whatever).

I've found restricting spell and component access to be among the best ways, though.

"Hah! I have mastered the spell of major hoo-doo! Now all I need is a fire-opal the size of a baseball with an intricate filligree of runes and dragons that has been dipped in the freshly spilled blood of a dying elven monarch on the night of the winter equinox! Once I have it I shall rule the world! Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!"

[Blue Angel]

Another way to keep spell casters under control is to use an END reserve (Mana) pool.

I stipulate that the Mana reserve cannot have more points than the active VPP size. This automaticly limits casters to no more than 10 of their most powerful spells without rest. Recovery is on a per hour basis.

On top of the Mana reserve casters also have to spend personal END. Mana for the magic pool they can tap into and personal END to represent the effort required to channel magical power.

[mudpyr8]

The only thing I didn't like about END Reserves is that they are so cheap. A 40 pt pool with recovery per hour isn't going to be much more than 5 points.

Are you doing something different, Blue?

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
The only thing I didn't like about END Reserves is that they are so cheap. A 40 pt pool with recovery per hour isn't going to be much more than 5 points.

Are you doing something different, Blue?

Hey mud,

Yes the END reserves are cheap.

The point though isn't the points. It's the restrictions I want to place on casters to limit how much casting they can do in any one time interval. The recovery is restricted so that casters take typically 5-8 hrs total to get back all points and must rest or meditate to recover the reserve. So the points don't come back while they are evading the Orc horde.

Remember, also that I make them pay personal END as well so in fact, they have payed the extra 5 points or so and get an additional restriction with it. Of course they get the also pays END limitation on spells.

It's like when building some spells. In some cases the extra -1/4 limitation doesn't make any difference on the real cost (when you are dealing with disad totals in the 3-6 range). But it is not the cost that matters in Fantasy. It is making the spell behave the way it 'should' regardless of the difference in cost.

I didn't care that the reserves were cheap. It just had to be a controling factor.