New GM/How do I balance Armor?

[Green Giant]

I have recently started running a fantasy HERO campaign and have run into an irritaion regarding heavily armored charcters.
I have mixed party of two light fighting elves, a hobbit thief, and a heavily armored knight. How do I balance encounters so that it is challenging combat for the knight while not completely slaughtering the characters without massive amounts of armor. The 6-8 def of resistant armor make almost all arrows and typical melee weapons bounce off of the knight. I am utilizing dex based skill penalties and other mundane difficulties with donning armor, but it takes pretty threatening creatures to put the fear in the player. Do you just have to get through the armor with big stun damage or use some form of AP. The campaign is roughly the same as the old fantasy genre books with all powers coming either from racial packages or spells.
-Thanks

[Old Man]

If it makes you feel any better, you have a pretty common problem. Pre-5th ed, DCV penalties for armor were not dependent on STR, so your 7 DEF tank would have been at -3 DCV regardless (and then made up for it with a large shield, but I digress). If you don't have a penalty like this in play, consider making one.

Otherwise, you could turn up the frequency of pick-wielding bad guys, like you suggest. It'll be pretty obvious discrimination, though, unless you run some kind of killing-the-evil-dwarves story arc.

A more general solution is to confront the party with inaccurate but high-damage bad guys. Assuming your light fighters have a significantly higher DCV than the tank, try to calibrate bad guy OCV such that they hit elves on 7- while the tank is hit on 11-. If the baddies are doing about 2d6K, they'll inflict few crippling wounds but plenty of stun on the tank. If the tank's using a shield, start counting shield damage, if not armor damage. (They don't last long.) This does run some risk of one-shotting one of your light guys, but overall it ought to balance a bit better.

To take this to an extreme, confront the party with really big, high-damage critters, one or two at a time. If a giant swings for 4d6K it matters little how much armor you wear. Yet if the party outnumbers the giant, they can wolfpack it--everyone reserves, giant picks a target, target dodges, everyone else gets a swing, lather, rinse, repeat.

Another idea is to take the group into an environment where tankmail is a liability. There's a good page or two in 5th about why you don't wear full plate in the desert.

Finally, make sure that the tank is _always_ the one who gets mind controlled.

[Ternaugh]

Try a rogue with a stiletto. You have a nasty AP attack (by targeting the joints in the armor), coupled with the stealth needed to get up close.

Or, for a change of pace, get that fighter out of the armor--drop him in water, heat it up, chill it, use lightning, lock up the joints, have little itchy bugs attack (NND, of course). Hit it with a Potion of Rusting. Require the party to be stealthy to get by a nasty encounter.

Or, present him with a foe as heavily armored as he is, and let them bash it out. For the others, let them take care of lesser opponents, or those with ranged weapons. Or let him fight a few mounted knights.

Trip him.To that end, try this:

Quarterstaff Combat Package
This package is often employed by city guards and others who wish merely to restrain or subdue.
Prod/strike (Strike 5 pts.)
Swing (Offensive Strike 5 pts.)
Knockdown (Legsweep 3 pts.)
Parry (Martial Block 4 pts.)
Disarm (Martial Disarm 4 pts.)
Total: 21 points

Skills:
WF: Quarterstaff
Breakfall


Just a few ideas...

JoeG

[LordGhee]

Dear Green Gaint,

Just zen it. Now this dose not seem like any help but in a D and D game you would have a group that was mixed and would not blink. In the ten FH games I have run in and the 6 or so I have been in I learned that there are different styles of play. I used all the mod and encumbreance rules. I have played tanks, a plate armoured Dwarf to a MA ( The army of the Tree) and each party had different armour classes. If deeeerent armour is avb. then that is what will happen.
What I also learn is the cultrue behind armour, if you are in someone elses land then the wearing of armour is consider an act of war or at least a breach of the peace. One needs a writ or to be part of a caravan gaurd ect. If the armour dude needs a challenge then have three peasent surround him and start pelting him with dirt dodging, then when blind tackal him down! Armour is worn because it is protection.
Hope this helps
Lord Ghee

[Spyritwind]

There are probably a few ways of looking at this. Depending on the armor encumberance rules you're using your knight could suffer from a lower DCV and there fore get hit more often. The rules from Fred really don't do justice to game balance issue in regards to heroic level characters wearing armor. If the knight were suffereing at least a -3 DCV that might help to balance issues.

In theory, the elves and halfling would, or at least could have higher DCV's than the knight and not get hit as often. Since the Hero system is primary based on stun and not getting knocked out the knight may still take stun damage even if no body is taken. I do realize though that a natural pd of eight with full plate on is still difficult from a normal grunt with only a 1D6, or 1D6+1 attack to do any stun damage.

Other non combat things to consider is things like not being able to sneak well, climb ropes, swim, etc.

Assuming the knight in the armor is definately the, or at least one of the 'fighters' of the group then they should be good at ... er ... fighting. If the other characters are not primarly fighter types then they shouldn't be expected to measure up the tank of the party in combat. Those characters should of course have other abilities to contribute to the parties adventuring success.

That to say that not all the characters should balance out in terms of combat. If there is multiple fighter types in the group and the tank is over whelming comparred to the other one then just make certain the armor is limiting the DCV of the fighter. The lightly armored fighter will still probably be at a disadvantage, but hopefully not too much.

Lower DVC, End at the end of every turn and even a loss of running movement can be impossed for medium and heavy armors. The lighter armored fighter maintains agility, mobility, potential sneakiness, etc.

You could also gear some of your encounters so that there is one nastier thing with some underlings. The 'weaker' characters could handle the weaker things while the tank of the party could handle to tougher monster, or whatever. This is not plausable all the time, but after awhile the knight will probably just go for the big thing realizing he/she is the one that needs to tackle it. If the tank and the party doesn't realize this at first they should adjust quickly to survive. For example:

You could toss out eight goblins lead by a great orc. The tank of the group should probably be the one to postition him/her self to lock horns with the great orc while the others polish up the goblins.

Just some thoughts. Hope they help.

[Markdoc]

Like most Fantasy GMs, I have had this problem. And like already suggested, i have thrown out the FREd encumbrance table.

I levy the following penalties for armour - light, -1, medium, -2 and heavy, -3. This aplies to PER rolls, DEX-type rolls (climbing walls, juggling, etc) you need to decide what falls into these categories - for me it's DEF 1-3, 4-5 and 6+, modified by how much coverage you have.

This rewards the lightly armoured fighters by making them a wee bit harder to hit and is justified not so much by weight as the fact that armour overheats you, restricts your movement and your vision, and is just plain noisy. Sure i've seen armoured guys do rolls and backflips, but I have never seen an armoured guy do it as easily as an unarmored guy.

Secondly - and more importantly - I restrict the situations where people can wear armour. If you want to visit the important official, or the secretive mage, no way are you going to get inside their castles wearing obvious armour.

Likewise, in many societies, riding cross country in full armour was like declaration that you were looking for a fight. If necessary inflict armour-all-the-time players with crippling sores and skin diseases. These were real problems that afflicted medieval soldiers when they were compelled to wear armour for long periods.

That doesn't mean the characters can't HAVE heavy armour. My players used it for battles, dungeon-bashing and midnight assaults. It's just that a lot of the time, they carried it in armour boxes. Which, funnily enough, is what medieval warriors used to do a lot of the time.

The bonus was, when the players broke out the heavy armour, they felt really boss - since it made them much tougher than they normally were.

cheers, Mark

[Yamo]

If your players' enemies are smart, they're going to employ armor piercing weapons and lots of called shots at unarmored areas when facing foes in heavy plate. Think about it.

And what about attacks that armor won't protect against? Strongdar the Bold's trusty platemail is going to provide no protection against mind control, mental attacks, NND poison gas attacks, and such. Hell, it might well make a bolt of lighting hurt more!

[Talon]

I have exhaustion and encumbrance rules at www.shalott.com/hero (seems to be down at the moment) that help somewhat. However, IMO a heavy armor character is going to be better in combat than a light armor character, all other things being equal. After all, who is better in combat, a cop or a cop with Kevlar on? In my games, I try to emphasize the skill penalties and END usage (via optional rules).

[Monolith]

I do not play a lot of fantasy games, but personally I do not worry about armor encumberance at all. While encumberance is realistic, it is seldom realistic within the genre. Fantasy characaters from books are never bothered by wearing heavier armors. Conan does not become less combat efficient in Chain over Leather. Aragorn does not become exhausted by wearing battle-armor over simple ranger armor. Ultimately, unless the character in the story is a thief, armor is never even a factor in fantasy literature; and in many cases it is not even a factor then.

As my sig file says, to me the game should be played to emulate the genre, not the reality of the enviroment.

[Stephen_H-G]

If you use the encumbrance rules it kinda balances out. They give penalties to DCV when wearing armor.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith

As my sig file says, to me the game should be played to emulate the genre, not the reality of the enviroment.

That's what we're trying to do. Genre emulation requires the possibility of lightly armored characters who are very difficult to hit. If there are no penalties for wearing armor, then there is no advantage to not wearing armor, and every player will dress their characters in full plate--even the mage. Legolas never wore heavy armor throughout all three books.

Having no armor penalties would do the opposite of what you intend--it would make things more realistic at the expense of genre emulation. In Real Life, a warrior in a good suit of plate isn't slowed by it much, certainly not enough to make him a lumbering target. Otherwise no one would have bothered.

[Yamo]

every player will dress their characters in full plate--even the mage. Legolas never wore heavy armor throughout all three books.

Combat Luck?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Old Man
If there are no penalties for wearing armor, then there is no advantage to not wearing armor, and every player will dress their characters in full plate--even the mage.

My answer here would be, so what? If a mage wants to wear full plate, then he should be allowed to wear it. To me it is just that simple.

One of the problems I have always found with Fantasy Hero is that everyone who tries to play it always ends up emulating D&D: Mages do not wear armor, priests use blunt weapons, ect. To me, once you start to do that you have failed the HERO System. If your purpose is to emulate D&D-style fantasy, then just play D&D, IMO.

When I play Fantasy Hero I want to be Elric (accomplished mage who wears armor and uses a sword). I do not want to play a mage who must wear robes and use a dagger or staff.

Legolas never wore heavy armor throughout all three books.

To me this is more of a social issue than game issue. Elves, unless going into a major battle, wear light armor. Not because it is less encumbering, but because "elven chain" makes less noise when they are stalking through the woods. It is part of their society like wearing a turbin is in some human societies.

I just do not like restrictions on a HERO System game. I want to be able to play characters like those I read about. I want to play Lancelot (stronger of arm) who fights Tristin (stronger of wind) all day long while wearing full armor. I want to play Achilles who has resistant skin from being dunked into the Styx. I want to play Elric wearing battle armor and shooting off lightning bolts. I want to emulate the heroes of the fiction I have read. Utimately I think that is what we all want.

Perhaps if you are really hung up on the concept of people wearing different armor types, instead of having a Enc modifier, just give the various types of armor a STR Minimum. That way if someone wants to wear chain, they must have a 13 STR. It does not matter what "class" the character is, they must just have the 13 STR to be able to wear the armor. That way you do not get 8 STR frail mages wearing full plate.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith

I just do not like restrictions on a HERO System game. I want to be able to play characters like those I read about.

So do I. I want to be able to play lightly armored, fast characters and still be competitive with my plate-wearing companions. I want to play Legolas, who slaughters dozens of orcs without wearing so much as chainmail. I want to play Robin Hood. I want to play the Gray Mouser. I want to play Rhialto and Cugel and Merlin. I want to play all of these without feeling that I'm being stupid by not cladding them all in steel. I want there to be some reason why heroes might not want to spend most of their adventures encased in plate.

You say you don't want restrictions on a HERO campaign, but what you're really doing is penalizing players who don't want to run armored characters. That sounds like a restriction to me.

[Talon]

I have found that a combination of charging more END for encumbered characters to move and applying CV penaties as END decreases is a great way to balance heavy and light armor characters. If the light armor people can move around a lot, they will quickly gain the upper hand as the heavy armor people become tired.