Survey: Most Useful Things in SourceBooks

[The Mind Master]

Okay, just wanted to see if anyone else was as disappointed as I was that the new UNTIL book did not feature any maps of some of the more colorful bases. It would have been really great, for example, to have maps of the Gateway satellite and the undersea base.

As a GM, I find base maps to be one of the most useful tools to help set up a scenario. That's the kind of thing I can't do easily on my own. The write-ups of bases aren't very useful by themselves. I don't really care what the point totals are for a location. (And sometimes they get a bit ridiculous. For example, spending points on Life Support to represent that a base has food stocks on hand. Why not just state that there are food supplies? What's next? Buying doors as entangle barriers usable by others? Come on.)

A map, OTOH, complete with a key to explain what is in each room, is an immense help in gameplay.

Am I the only one who feels that this is a glaring omission in the book? I could have done without the history of the UN and the stuff on international law. If ever needed for a game, enough background info could easily be looked up on the internet. I buy these books mainly for practical material to help me in the actual gameplay.

I don't mean this to sound like a rant. I just wanted to make my opinion heard when future projects are being considered. And I wonder if there are others who feel like I do. This is a kind of survey to see what others like to see in sourcebooks of this type.

[Metaphysician]

Yeah, maps are nice. However, for organization books, the most important thing, IMHO, is detailed descriptions of how the organization operates, from its hierarchy to its usual tactics in battle.

[ghost-angel]

Ideas ... sourcebooks give me good ideas to start from. And personalities, it's good to have characters made by other people to use since they're created from a different frame of mind than I have.

As for Bases needing Life Support .. if the base is in Downtown City and running to the grocery store when you run out of Cheerio's is an easily accomplished tash then it is extranious. When the base is located a hundred forty seven miles above the planet then running out of Cheerios won't be an issue until you run out of CocoaPuffs and LuckyCharms and soon you've got a team of superheros staring at a box of stale Grapenuts going "I thought YOU went grocery shopping." THEN Life Support becomes important because it tells you how long before said super-team resorts to fighting over stale Grapenuts. It's also good for StarHero to represent getting stuck in space with no engines and wondering just how long before the food runs out...

Of course, YMMV.

[ChuckB]

To tell the truth , I'd rather see bases like Gateway treated as a separate boxed-set type deal complete with 25mm scale hex maps , cardboard minis , sourcebook , etc.

[loraxxx]

i gotta go for maps, myself--but if i had my way, DOJ would pump up the ALL graphic aspects of it's products, 'cause i think visuals are the one weak link in CHAMPIONS....

i'm the type that needs visuals--text desciptions just don't bring a scenario, or character to life for me....

i think a good number of others feel the same way--look how popular storn cook's thread is, not to mention the character pix thread--storn's work has really breathed new life into the old CU....

my main negative critique's of the hero books, overall for the past 20 years are 1) there's not enough art! and 2) things, characters, places in the CU don't have a consistant look and feel....

i understand how DOJ wouldn't want to lock too much of the visuals down in order to make it's products usable by as many folks as possible--but i still feel the CU is in need of some serious art direction....

both D+D and WhiteWolf have had a lot of success with establlishing a distinctive look and feel for their universe--and i know DOJ's direct compeditor PALLADIUM had kevin long under contract for years in order to insure a consistant look for the various RIFTS products they put out....

despite the fact that champions is a game about comic book super-heroes, i don't think any of it's products look as dynamic as the genre they represent....

although things ARE improving--i just don't think things are quite there yet....

[BobGreenwade]

For me, maps run a close second to explicit scenario hooks like those in CKC. I can make my own maps in a pinch, but story ideas are a bit harder for me to come up with.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by loraxxx
i'm the type that needs visuals...

As evidenced by your avatar...

Seriously, though, I think that HERO products could use a little more artwork, and maybe a little more internal color. It doesn't make a difference for me, really, but I think loraxxx has a valid point.

[Metaphysician]

The problem is, one of the best things about HERO products is the value. If they were full color, art-heavy, you'd get books with lower page counts and higher prices.

[Boll Weevil]

I'd like to see a mini-comic with CU players and accompanying game descriptions. Since Fred, every DOJ book I've gotten has been chock-full of excellent power examples, even an entire book (UNTIL SPD) devoted to nothing but. BTW, I LOVE that book. To complete the package I would like to see the minicomic show a battle between, say, The Champions and GRAB or such. The left hand page shows the action between characters we all know. The right page would detail the action in game terms; all the rolls, all the sequences all the MP accounting etc.

Since the first ed, the have had a short version of this sans graphics. Ogre robs a bank, Crusader is there on his lunchbreak. This is helpful but with Drains and Aids and Multipowers, expanded Entangle rules, a gazillion manuevers each with their own CV adjustments and rules, I would like to see more.

It could be written like the old versions, "Okay Crusader, you see what looks like a big..." I'm less interested in that. Show me the numbers!

Besides helping a marginal GM such as myself with tiny mechanics questions, such a comic would serve another greedy purpose. With rare exceptions, I have been out of the comic-buying game for a looooong time. Since I have gotten back into Champions (about a year before Fred), I have satisfied my comic jones with Hero products exclusively. I read CU and CKC write-ups with the same giddy anticipation as I once read comics. The stories are amazing, the characters are cool, the settings are deeper than Tolkein. Well, you know what I mean. With every new supplement my fascination with the CU grows deeper. Thanks DOJ. I've been a Hero fan for 22 years but the stories keep me coming back.

[loraxxx]

Originally posted by Kristopher
As evidenced by your avatar...

Seriously, though, I think that HERO products could use a little more artwork, and maybe a little more internal color. It doesn't make a difference for me, really, but I think loraxxx has a valid point.

holy kow!!--i got "kristophered," and didn't take any BODY....

the avatar was MAYDAY's idea, BTW--or at least that's the story i'm going with for now....

[loraxxx]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
The problem is, one of the best things about HERO products is the value. If they were full color, art-heavy, you'd get books with lower page counts and higher prices.

PALLADIUM manages to keep the page count up and the cost down three ways 1) they (or at least used to) keep a fairly prolific artist on salary--that way they don't have to pay buy the piece and wind up with lots of art to use; 2) they frequently re-use art, especially the pics detailing gadgets, gizmos, weapons and such; 3) kevin does ALOT of the art himself....

my suggestion would be for HERO to see if they could hire 1 or 2 aspiring COMIC BOOK artists to do a bunch of panels, splash pages, and spot illos depicting characters and situations from the CU--they been doing a lot of that lately, but the artists they've been using aren't comic artists, so the illos generally don't have that super-hero "feel"

[badger3k]

Just to chime in on the artwork angle. I agree they need more. The Freedom City thread made me look through the M&M books, and they use art well. I don't need color, but more artwork would be nice, especially some action-oriented art (or the several panel strips that some games - including some older ones - have used). I do like the narratives for characters and such - I think they are top rate, and are always an interesting read, but some visuals would be a plus. I know its an economic issue, but maybe when DOJ gets bigger...

[cubist]

Originally posted by loraxxx
PALLADIUM manages to keep the page count up and the cost down three ways 1) they (or at least used to) keep a fairly prolific artist on salary--that way they don't have to pay buy the piece and wind up with lots of art to use; 2) they frequently re-use art, especially the pics detailing gadgets, gizmos, weapons and such; 3) kevin does ALOT of the art himself....

my suggestion would be for HERO to see if they could hire 1 or 2 aspiring COMIC BOOK artists to do a bunch of panels, splash pages, and spot illos depicting characters and situations from the CU--they been doing a lot of that lately, but the artists they've been using aren't comic artists, so the illos generally don't have that super-hero "feel"

Actually Palladium manages to keep the prices down by using poor bindings, covers that peel apart, recycled ART AND TEXT and generally putting out maybe ten pages of material that is actually useful per book. Kev is not just a raging egomaniac though, he's also a really bad artist who only sees his work in print because he owns the company.

[loraxxx]

Originally posted by cubist
Actually Palladium manages to keep the prices down by using poor bindings, covers that peel apart, recycled ART AND TEXT and generally putting out maybe ten pages of material that is actually useful per book. Kev is not just a raging egomaniac though, he's also a really bad artist who only sees his work in print because he owns the company.

you sound like a former member of the detroit gaming community....

but really--i'm not suggesting that HERO copy the PALLADIUM format, just suggesting that there are ways to increase their amount of graphic content that won't break HERO'S bank--i'm using PALLADIUM as an example, 'cause i know the big "KS" is frugal with a dollar....

but really, are you from the "D" or have you jusy had some bad experiences here....?

btw--all my PALLADIUM stuff has held together fine over the years--i'm not even going to think about arguing with you about kevin's ego, though....

[Mike W]

One of the things that has been most useful to me is the Ultimate Martial Artist books. Not just the maneuver lists, though those have been very helpful but the origins(so I can give a character a geographical correct art) and the power listings. Those are the real "extras" that can help distinguish one martial artist from another. Boy did that Suppress Fire power come in handy last time.