Creature Exchange

[Blackout]

Anyone interested in a "Monster Mart"? Which is to say, we all take turns posting fully stated Fantasy Hero-type critters...

[Seenar]

sounds like a good idea
i will check my files

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Blackout
Anyone interested in a "Monster Mart"? Which is to say, we all take turns posting fully stated Fantasy Hero-type critters...

Absolutely!

[Hierax]

Here's a few draft monsters that I'd like some feedback on so I can finish them off:

http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/g...umber_hulk.pdf

http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/g...nster/ogre.pdf

Thanks!

[MisterVimes]

What would be really handy would be to come up with a general conversion from another game system *coughd20cough* to HERO... the biggest problem I am running into is that "To hit" and OCV/DCV don't translate well when in one system Armor makes you harder to hit and the other makes you harder to damage.

Thoughts?

[EternityShard]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
What would be really handy would be to come up with a general conversion from another game system *coughd20cough* to HERO... the biggest problem I am running into is that "To hit" and OCV/DCV don't translate well when in one system Armor makes you harder to hit and the other makes you harder to damage.

Thoughts?

They're roughly the same (OCV and BaB). Just use the Base Attack Bonus from d20, and not the full attack bonus (such a Str mods, specialization, etc.). If the creature has weapon finesse, then include the dex bonus in the OCV conversion.

DCV would be trickier, I'd only base it on Dex bonuses to AC, Dodge bonuses, and maybe deflection bonuses. Anything else contributing to AC should armor of one sort or another.

However, I think any sort of conversion rules would be just as complex as creating the creature from scratch in Hero. Any conversion rules I'd use would be looking at this thread to see what someone else posted as an Umber Hulk or such.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by EternityShard
They're roughly the same (OCV and BaB). Just use the Base Attack Bonus from d20, and not the full attack bonus (such a Str mods, specialization, etc.). If the creature has weapon finesse, then include the dex bonus in the OCV conversion.

DCV would be trickier, I'd only base it on Dex bonuses to AC, Dodge bonuses, and maybe deflection bonuses. Anything else contributing to AC should armor of one sort or another.

However, I think any sort of conversion rules would be just as complex as creating the creature from scratch in Hero. Any conversion rules I'd use would be looking at this thread to see what someone else posted as an Umber Hulk or such.

My point is that (let's use a first level fighter for example) you have a +1 BAB and lets say that a starting FH character has an OCV of 4. When that 1st level fighter reaches 10th level, he is going to have a BAB of +10, but the equivelent FH character will not have a 14 OCV (even with Combat Levels).

As for Complexity, yes it probably would be, but there are a lot of players and GMs out there that could probably use the help converting their favorite monster and a rule of thumb is always helpful.

Besides... it's a HERO tradition.
We had rules for converting just about everything back in the Adventurer's Club days... we don't Imitate, we assimilate.

[Hierax]

FWIW,

Basically, when converting from xD&D, I use 1/2 of the BAB (or 20-THAC0/2) to determine the OCV, or rather the CSLs of a character or creature.

Fighter 0 = WF
Fighter 1-2 = +1 CSL
Fighter 3-4 = +2 CSL
Fighter 5-6 = +3 CSL
Fighter 7-8 = +4 CSL
Fighter 9-10 = +5 CSL
...

using 1/2 keeps things from getting out of hand with really high level characters or high hit dice monsters.

I tried using the 1:1 ratio before but it got way out of hand.

I don't include xD&D bonuses from STR to the OCV, the STR affects the damage not the ability to hit in HERO. Just convert the STR to STR, Convert the DEX to DEX, and the levels/HD to Combat Skill levels.

One thing that I tend to do differently than a lot of HERO players/GMs is use more CSLs and less DEX. A lot of HERO write-ups tend to have highly trained combatants have a really high DEX but little to no CSLs. In the end, I think that we get about the same OCV, but I like to emphasize having CSLs represent skill, YMMV.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Hierax
FWIW,

Basically, when converting from xD&D, I use 1/2 of the BAB (or 20-THAC0/2) to determine the OCV, or rather the CSLs of a character or creature.

Fighter 0 = WF
Fighter 1-2 = +1 CSL
Fighter 3-4 = +2 CSL
Fighter 5-6 = +3 CSL
Fighter 7-8 = +4 CSL
Fighter 9-10 = +5 CSL
...

using 1/2 keeps things from getting out of hand with really high level characters or high hit dice monsters.

I tried using the 1:1 ratio before but it got way out of hand.

I don't include xD&D bonuses from STR to the OCV, the STR affects the damage not the ability to hit in HERO. Just convert the STR to STR, Convert the DEX to DEX, and the levels/HD to Combat Skill levels.

One thing that I tend to do differently than a lot of HERO players/GMs is use more CSLs and less DEX. A lot of HERO write-ups tend to have highly trained combatants have a really high DEX but little to no CSLs. In the end, I think that we get about the same OCV, but I like to emphasize having CSLs represent skill, YMMV.

Have you come to any conclusions about Bite/Claw damage to HKA ratios?

[Hierax]

MisterVimes wrote:

Have you come to any conclusions about Bite/Claw damage to HKA ratios?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Do you mean how do I do Bite/Claw damage differently from Weapon damage for HKAs?

For normal (non-magical) animals I'd sometimes use the old Reduced Penetration but seldom for fantastic monsters since armor stopping their attacks too much would make them seem a bit less scary but basically it would depend on the nature of the SFX of the attack -- e.g., a unicorn horn might not be treated the same as a rhinoceros horn.

Is that what you meant, or something else?

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Hierax
MisterVimes wrote:


I'm not sure what you mean here.

Do you mean how do I do Bite/Claw damage differently from Weapon damage for HKAs?

For normal (non-magical) animals I'd sometimes use the old Reduced Penetration but seldom for fantastic monsters since armor stopping their attacks too much would make them seem a bit less scary but basically it would depend on the nature of the SFX of the attack -- e.g., a unicorn horn might not be treated the same as a rhinoceros horn.

Is that what you meant, or something else?

Sorry, let me less Vague. If an attack does 1d4 what do you set the attack value at in HERO? or 1d6 or 1d8... etc.

[Hierax]

Mr Vimes,

Or if by "damage to HKA ratios" you meant the amount of dice of HKA damage, I'd just compare the amount of damage from the creature's claw/bite attack to a similar amount for a weapon.

i.e., do they tend to be about the same as a dagger or a shortsword?

The end damage after STR would be what I'd be looking at instead of the starting damage. e.g., d8 in xD&D is about the same as d6+1 in HERO, so I might give the creature a 1/2d6 HKA (2 DC) and have the STR bring it up to 1d6+1 HKA (4 DC).

Again, is that what you meant, or something else?

[Hierax]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Sorry, let me less Vague. If an attack does 1d4 what do you set the attack value at in HERO? or 1d6 or 1d8... etc.

1d4 = d6-1 or 1/2d6 after STR. So maybe 1 pip HKA (1 DC) to 1/2d6 HKA with STR (2 DC).

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Hierax
1d4 = d6-1 or 1/2d6 after STR. So maybe 1 pip HKA (1 DC) to 1/2d6 HKA with STR (2 DC).

Thanks, that helps a lot. Obviously (as Eternityshard pointed out) there are a lot of variables that aren't considered in d20 that are critical in HERO (Vampiric transformation attacks as an example), but it's nice to have as much 'interpretation' as possible before heading into such a large project.

[Hierax]

For example, when converting the Umber Hulk I used the following:

40 Claws: HKA 1d6+1 (2½d6 with STR) (20 Base Points); Penetrating x2 (+1), (40 Active Points).

37 Mandibles: HKA 2d6-1 (3d6+1 with STR) (25 Base Points); Armor Piercing (+½), (37 Active Points).

Claws: Since umber hulks burrow through solid stone with their bare claws, it seemed reasonable that they could rip through pretty much any armor. I made the claw attacks double penetrating so that they could shred their way through hardened defences. (Damage: 1e: 3-12, 3e: 8-14; average 5.5-13 = 2d6+1 K = 7 DC)

Bite: The bite didn't quite seem to have the same ability to shred stone but I reasoned that, due to the nature of the creature, it would still be impressive at getting by solid defences so I made it armor piercing just to give it an attack that wasn't just lesser but ever so slightly different in kind, if similar in effect. (Damage: 1e: 3-10; 3e: 5-19; average 4-14.5 = 2.5d6 K = 8 DC). Also, in the Fantasy Hero Companion (p.68) a Giant Beetle (Insect, Giant) has mandibles which to 1.5d6 HKA (3d6+1 w/ STR).

I might adjust the average damage slightly to get both the claw and the bite about the same so that they could fit neatly into an attack Multipower if I chose, but I wouldn't tend to adjust things more than by +/- 1-2 DC to get round numbers (depending what I want to emphasize with my version of the monster in question).

How do other people go about converting monster attacks?