What would you do with killer PCs

[NetNemesis316]

Let me give you a little background on my current campaign and some of the problems I have been having and see how you guys and gals would handle it.

I have a fairly new superteam based in the new Millenium city. Some of the players have been playing Champions for awhile but most are newbies. We have a couple of scenarios and I notice some of the newbies are a little apt to use their most deadly attack first and ask questions later.

One of the scenarios I ran was the Return of Doctor Destroyer which caused quite an uproar in our Millenium City and the World in general. The government deputized the team as part of the new Doctor Destroyer task force which has a council that the team answers to made up of people from UNTIL, Primus, The CIA, DOSPA, and the NSA. The team is given a new base and some new DNPC's to run the place. Things are going fairly smoothly and then we start the Champions Battlegrounds modules.

The first run again shows how the newbies are very hack and slash oriented. So I set up to have the teams legal advisor, Mr. Dewey from the law firm of Dewey, Cheetum, & Howe, come in and speak to the team about the liabilities involved in their battles and how they should not use lethal force unless absolutely neccessary.

A couple of sessions later we run Let's go to the Maul which has some villians who do not try to kill or even let innocents get harmed.

The scenario is going along when Foxbat appears and so do the members of Grab. Capture foam is fired at our powered armor character named Omega Man. Omega Man then decides to whip out his 4D6 RKA Light Sabre and try to slice Bluejay in two. Cheshire Cat runs to her side and helps her get away.

This leads to a rather bad battle as Foxbat and our team's Darkness specialist Shadows make large areas of reduced perception.

Foxbat grabs the jewel and then hopes in the Foxbat mobile. Omega Man proceeds to lift the vehicle 8 inches into the air and then hurl it for his full 70 strength into the floor of the mall. Doing so much body that the car is at negative 11 body. Foxbat is almost killed and his two compatriots start running for the exit.

Next we see our team's hero Voltage. An electrical energy projector chases them a few phases behind so he loses sight of them. He gets to the parking lot and sees a Yugo leaving the parking area at high speed. It is too far for him to see who is in the car. He uses his Dispel Technological Device power to shutdown the electrical system of the car and the car stops.

At this I think "Neat, he gets using the nonlethal force at least. Then next he hits the car with a 4D6 RKA electrical blast and nearly kills the college student who was in the car trying to get away from the bedlam.

Most of the villians got away except for Foxbat who will be suckin his dinner through an IV for awhile. Although if it weren't for Cheshire Cat, Bluejay would have had the same problem. Primus shows up and their Silver Avenger is highly ticked.

Omega Man and Voltage did not stick around for the police to arrive and talked about making plans to flee the country or to just mop up whoever came after them. These players were upset with the fact that I told them they had used too much force again.

My question to you is how would you handle the aftermath of this one?

What should happen to these very unheroic heroes?

I thought I gave them more than enough warning. Coincidentally, these two were also trying to use the rules to Munchkin their characters in the first place so I can't imagine how bad it would have been had I left them in their original design.

Anyway I am looking for input. How do you handle D&D style players in a Champions world.

I need to also find a way to get the rest of the team back in the good graces of the public so I can run the OmegaWorld scenario from Battlegrounds next.

Any input would be helpful. Thanks.

[Chuckg]

O-kay...

Do they have reputations as superheroes? Or is this first intro to the world?

'Cause if we're talking to door #2, what they just did makes them look a lot like super-VILLAINS. "Obviously", they were fighting with Foxbat and GRAB for the loot.

Not that it matters. Psychotic rampages like this are good for the Champions, the local Silver Avenger, and as many PRIMUS Assault Agents and MARS first responders -- with the heavy weapons -- as it takes to finally stun, Flash, Entangle, sleep-gas, or just plain beat down the PCs.

Because they are multiple attempted murderers now, after all.

[Chuckg]

Oh yes, and after all their characters land in jail...

.. hand 'em blank character sheets and say "Make new characters".

And if they walk out? Find new players.

Oh yes -- and if they actually use lethal force on the cops or PRIMUS people? Well, we know what happens to superpowered cop-killers, don't we? Yes, yes we do.

[innominatus]

I don't know if I'd flat-out force them to all take new characters; but logic and reason will break down in the campaign if the characters aren't confronted with the consequences of their actions. So....

1.) Unless the heroes bought the Perk "Local Police Powers" (and maybe even if they did), have the villains slap a nice big civil suit on the heroes for their excessive use of force, or even bring them up on criminal charges.

2.) Introduce into the campaign a VERY powerful (one with a decent chance of taking on the entire team) True-Blue Hero, somebody nobody could possibly doubt is one of the Good Guys. And if the characters screw up again, have this Captain Do-Gooder INSIST that the heroes turn themselves in to the authorities to explain their actions (and DON'T let him take "No" for an answer). And if the PC's start assaulting a dyed-in-the-wool hero, then it's "Open Season" on the PC's...

3.) When word gets out that the heroes are out for blood, the villains are going to hear about it too; that will in turn make the villains more bloodthirsty in battle (they may as well pull out all the stops; anything less and they're as good as dead!) If your players are the type to be concerned by it, have the villains take a few civilian hostages, and see what happens to the heroes' reputations when innocent bystanders start dying due to the heroes' callous disregard for human life....

4.) Change the name of the law firm. I'm as big a fan of the Three Stooges as you'll ever meet; but if you make the guy cautioning the heroes against excessive force the punchline of a running joke, they're going to be less likely to take his advice seriously....

5.) Sit down with your players and explain your expectations to them. Discuss the conventions of the comics you're trying to emulate (there is a LOT of variation in terms of lethality, depending on what books you and your players are reading), and ask them what sort of game THEY are expecting to play in. Make sure everybody is on the same page; if your players are unanimously focused on pounding the Bad Guy into mash and don't want to give any thought to "collateral damage", you may need to adjust some of your expectations if they're not willing to meet you halfway...

Actually, I'd probably try Number 5 first....

[Trebuchet]

First, I would ask the players (nicely) to tone down the killing attacks and general bloodthirstiness. Explain that this is a superhero campaign and not D&D. I'm assuming you explained most of this before they entered the game, but the fact you described them both as munchkinizers makes me suspect they won't easily change. But it's still right to try.

Second, I would have the PCs hassled by the authorities for the excessive force. Have the district attorney file charges for assault. Have the family of the college student file a multimillion dollar lawsuit for medical expenses, destruction of his car and mental anguish. Make the family sympathetic as hell (Mom, dad, grandma, little twin sisters, maybe they're Vietnamese immigrants talking about living the American dream.) Have the family appear on Good Morning America talking about how Voltage nearly killed their son who works two jobs to put himself through college and who was just leaving his job at the mall and was late for because of the supervillain fight. Have the cops look askance at every use of power by these guys. Convene a grand jury to determine if excessive force was used. Have PRIMUS or some other federal agency review the team's certification. Pour it on.

Third, all if that doesn't work, ask the players to leave the game. You don't want to wreck your campaign over a couple of yahoos who just don't get it. If they're damaging either the other players' or your enjoyment of the game then they need to get right or leave. This is supposed to be fun.

[Hugh Neilson]

Lots of good suggestions above. Also, look at what happens in the comics. Do the people Our "Heroes" are killing/maiming have relatives or friends? Probably. How often, in the comics, does a revenge-crazed relation come after the hero? These guys are making it morally justifiable.

What if someone with similar powers starts using these guys as cover for their own murders? Oh, it's a frame up is it? Seems like your typical behaviour, so the press will already have you convicted.

Now, to REALLY punish the munchkins, let's use the classic comic staple: that which does not kill me (and somnetimes even that which does) makes me stronger. Foxbat with cyborg components, out for vengeance? The slain supervillain returns from the grave with powers far beyond those formerly possessed, seeking vengeance on her killer? NOw, I refer to this as realy puniushing the munchkins because it is their own actions which have made their enemies so much more powerful.

During a police investigation, wouldn't the murder weapons (ie Omega Man's armor focus) be seized for the full duration of the investigation and trial? He gave them the right to take away his focus. Munchkins love having their toys taken away, right?

In the end, though, it may be that these players just are not going to be happy playing in a Supers campaign. They should have the maturity to make that decision, and leave. If they don't, you may be fporced to ask them to sit out for the good of the campaign. Unfortunately, that means recruiting players of a more (super) heroic mindset.

Many of my Champs players alkso play D&D, but our D&D campaigns don't include characters out to kill everything that moves either. Some players, however, are only in the game to be the toughest guy on the block. These power trippers aren't any good for any campaign unless powertripping is its focus.

[Sketchpad]

I've been in a similar situation before ... when I was confronted with a group of super "heroes" that took out a major villain, I had the law come down on them hard ... for the next three weekly sessions, they were on the run from UNTIL, Primus, FBI and three superhero groups ... when they were finally caught, there was a trial (which we played out, as one of the players was a laywer) and they lost. Of the six members, three were found guilty as accessories to manslaughter (gaining 10 years in the tank), two were found guilty of second degree manslaughter (life with chance of parole), and the last one, who was the most violent of them was found guilty first degree manslaughter and coerscion (sp?) (3 life terms w/o parole) ... the group was also charged with resisting arrest and assualting a public law officer (aka sanctioned supers). The players were disappointed and I lost 3 members ... but, in the long run, the group was better because of it as the remaining three made new characters (one of which being a second gen of his original character) and went on to form a much loved group in the world ... ironic part is, the three that left told me that their characters would never change, so they busted out of jail as NPCs and became one of the main villain groups that the PCs battled

[Doug McCrae]

Genre has a part to play. In the Authority for example, the heroes massacre vast numbers of their foes and they still seem very popular. Certainly they don't ever have to bother with legal repercussions. Of course, Seth did eventually come after them, but that was for giving Bill Clinton the finger, not for killing people.

[Supreme Serpent]

The players do need to tone it down.

However, I notice the phrase "4D6 KA" coming up a few times. Have the newbie players been made aware of how lethal such attacks can be? Have they seen demonstrations vs similar targets in the past? If campaign lethality is such a concern, why do they have such attacks on their sheets, instead of 12D6 EB's or 8D6 AP attacks?

If the Foxbatmobile is setup like the Batmobile, and the players haven't run into him before (ie know that it's "just a Yugo with a fancy fiberglass frame"), I don't think that spiking the car was too excessive. If someone did that in a comic to Batman in the Batmobile, I would expect Bats to either abort to eject out, or climb out of the wreckage. I would not expect a 70 STR to get past the vehicles DEF, it's BODY, and make it -11 BODY and severely injure a supervillain past his own PD - without multiple hits.

[The Mind Master]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent
I would not expect a 70 STR to get past the vehicles DEF, it's BODY, and make it -11 BODY and severely injure a supervillain past his own PD - without multiple hits.

I had the same thought, wondering how so much body could have gotten through to injure Foxbat so badly if it wasn't a killing attack. I didn't think the action was excessive in the genre.

Sounds like you've already talked to the players and they don't understand, which is unfortunate. Punishing them in-game is not a good option, IMO, as I've rarely seen it work to change behavior if talking has already failed. Plus it diverts the whole campaign into something that often neither the GM nor the players enjoy.

I think the only real options are to strike some kind of compromise with them so they can hack at times if that's what they want (of course I'd armor up my villains, then) ...or else find some players who want to play the same genre that you do.

[Chuckg]

The impression I got is that the team brick threw the entire car like a Hail Mary pass in the Super Bowl -- while Foxbat was still in it.

[The Mind Master]

Originally posted by Chuckg
The impression I got is that the team brick threw the entire car like a Hail Mary pass in the Super Bowl -- while Foxbat was still in it.

I thought he just picked up the car and smashed it down. But whatever, 70 STR is 14d6. Assume a BODY count of 14 and a DEF for the car of 3, that gives you the -11 BODY for the car. So 11 BODY gets through, and any occupant in the car who has at least 11 PD (which I think Foxbat has) takes no body.

Or am I missing something?

[Chuckg]

Falling damage. He threw the car up into the air.

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Falling damage. He threw the car up into the air.

He flew up with it 8 inches, then threw it down.

[Chuckg]

egad