New Limitation: Does not Stack. Gm's please look

[Arthur]

that's my point .... the game is about Genre Simulation .. not Real Life Simulation.

I've yet to see proof that within the construct of the game 10DEF provides 16x the protection of 2DEF. [an Abrams MBT is listed as DEF 20 Hardened btw not 10 in FREd.]

Two points:

1. If DEF 20 is "really" ten times the protection of DEF 2, then the Abrams tank armor is equivalent to ten layers of medieval leather armor or 2-3 layers of medieval plate. Using my derived logic, the tank armor is equivalent to about 500 layers of leather or about 50 layers of platemail. Which one do you think is more accurate?

2. Damage is also logarithmic. A medium tank gun does about 4d K or DC 12. A handgun does about 2d K or DC 6. Are you honestly trying to tell me that a 90mm Tank Gun has only twice the energy of a .45? In point of fact, up to about DC 15, each +1 DC for guns represented twice the KE (at least pre-FRED: as wonderful a job as DOJ has done, they don't seem to grasp the underlying mathematical model of the system). However, even now, +1 DC is FAR closer to x2 damage than anything resembling a linear progression. Note that this matches nicely with +5 STR exerting twice as much force. Once again, a doubling.

[ghost-angel]

Two points:

1. If DEF 20 is "really" ten times the protection of DEF 2, then the Abrams tank armor is equivalent to ten layers of medieval leather armor or 2-3 layers of medieval plate. Using my derived logic, the tank armor is equivalent to about 500 layers of leather or about 50 layers of platemail. Which one do you think is more accurate?

2. Damage is also logarithmic. A medium tank gun does about 4d K or DC 12. A handgun does about 2d K or DC 6. Are you honestly trying to tell me that a 90mm Tank Gun has only twice the energy of a .45? In point of fact, up to about DC 15, each +1 DC for guns represented twice the KE (at least pre-FRED: as wonderful a job as DOJ has done, they don't seem to grasp the underlying mathematical model of the system). However, even now, +1 DC is FAR closer to x2 damage than anything resembling a linear progression. Note that this matches nicely with +5 STR exerting twice as much force. Once again, a doubling.

Sound logic. can't disagree. Works in terms of describing types of armor and how they work. Makes for a logical "From Game to Reality Reasoning" line of thought.

Doesn't explain why I can't cast a force field over my chain armor, which is the point of this thread.

IN GAME TERMS if your character have a Def of 12 because of a +6 Def to Chain mail and a +6 Force Field Spell and your sword only does 1D6+1 killing damage make it a "super sharp blade" and add Armor Piercing, now your character has 6 Def and that D6+1 might hurt. Make the goober weilding the sword a guy that can add lots of STR, say up a 2D6 KA, now that looks like it might draw blood. Or add Peircing to the arrow/spear, a point always gets through.

Between talking it over and coming to an agreement players shouldn't feel the need to stack them in normal combat and still have the option when facing that really big dragon later on.

And use it against them as well, no reason the enemy can't do the same and everyone is invulnerable to swords .. players will have to find another route or stop using everything all the time. I've always said "most problems are not inherent in the system, they are inherent in the people using it."

But hey - it's your house, use whatever rules you see fit to use. that's my last pair of pennies.

[Markdoc]

>>>ound logic. can't disagree. Works in terms of describing types of armor and how they work. Makes for a logical "From Game to Reality Reasoning" line of thought.

Doesn't explain why I can't cast a force field over my chain armor, which is the point of this thread.<<<

Ah, but it does, if you follow the argument. The argument goes:

1. In real life, adding extra thickness to real armour does NOT proportionately increase its protection.
2. In Hero system, an increase of 1 DC or +2 DEF is taken as roughly a doubling (the Abrams versus leather armour discussion)
3. Therefore, adding another thin layer of equivalent protection to your armour via forcefield is NOT going to double its DEF - indeed, the protective benefit will be (at most) +2 DEF (probably less - see #1 above).

Therefore:
a. You CAN cast a force field over your armour - if you like.
b. A +6 DEF FF will not add +6 DEF to 6 DEF chainmail - that would give a total of 12 DEF - or the equivalent a 10 cm thick hardened steel door safe. It will give a small benefit - +2 DEF at most. Adding a +5DEF FF would give almost no benefit at all, while conversely if you added a +7DEF FF, the chain would contribute little.

It's simple math. Hero system is built around an arithmetic progression, not a linear one - therefore you are not intended to (linearly) add. So the "no stacking" argument is not a kludge - it boils down to "the benefit of stacking two identical defences is so small - in both real life and game terms - that it does not warrant giving any extra DEF".

Now I realise that that's an oversimplification - adding an extra layer of protection, would probably give you a small benefit. But frankly, I am too lazy to work out a mathematical formula for calculating the difference. Somebody posted one such on a related thread a day or two ago - as noted above it suggests that adding two defences of equivalent DEF together gives about 1 point extra of DEF. That's the most elegant approach I have seen, but I think I'll stick with "doesn't stack" simply because the result is almost the same and requires far less work.

And if the math doesn't convince you, here's a real life example: Early plate armour was worn over chain mail - mostly because the plate was an addon and armourers weren't skilled enough at that point to make articulated joints, so the chain covered any embarassing gaps. Whoah - hoah! DEF8 plate over DEF6 Chain. DEF14 right? Well, no. The extra protection given by chain under plate was so neglible (while the extra weight was so noticeable) that chain started to disappear from under the plate-covered bits almost instantly, and as articulation improved, it vanished entirely. In other words, in real life, DEF8 plate plus DEF6 Chain was considered inferior to DEF8 plate alone - no significant extra protection, but extra weight.

If chain mail + plate is no better than plate, why should FF + plate be better than plate?

cheers, Mark

[tesuji]

If chain mail + plate is no better than plate, why should FF + plate be better than plate?

cheers, Mark

So, do i get this right, (letting slide the whole issue of using real world notions for magic force field spell interactions)...

in your games PD and ED from the character does not add in with defenses from armor or force fields to reduce damage? (This presumes you dont make an exception for skin + plate defenses adding.)

How has that worked in play? Any issues or problems you have encountered with this?

Thanks

[Markdoc]

I take it you are being sarcastic, but PD and ED does of course add into armour - because it's a totally different thing.

Having a PD of 8 (within the normal human range) does NOT mean that your skin is 8x as thick or tough as the skin of a normal person. Nor does it mean that you have some kind of wierd armour on your outer surface. It reflects the overall toughness of the individual.

You are partially right however: if a creature had natural armour, I would not stack this with free metal or leather armour: the same argument applies in that case to stacking armour types: anything that goes through steel is unlikley to be significantly affected by a layer of horny scales underneath.

cheers, Mark

[Arthur]

>>>ound logic. can't disagree. Works in terms of describing types of armor and how they work. Makes for a logical "From Game to Reality Reasoning" line of thought.

Doesn't explain why I can't cast a force field over my chain armor, which is the point of this thread.<<<

Ah, but it does, if you follow the argument. The argument goes:

1. In real life, adding extra thickness to real armour does NOT proportionately increase its protection.
2. In Hero system, an increase of 1 DC or +2 DEF is taken as roughly a doubling (the Abrams versus leather armour discussion)
3. Therefore, adding another thin layer of equivalent protection to your armour via forcefield is NOT going to double its DEF - indeed, the protective benefit will be (at most) +2 DEF (probably less - see #1 above).

Therefore:
a. You CAN cast a force field over your armour - if you like.
b. A +6 DEF FF will not add +6 DEF to 6 DEF chainmail - that would give a total of 12 DEF - or the equivalent a 10 cm thick hardened steel door safe. It will give a small benefit - +2 DEF at most. Adding a +5DEF FF would give almost no benefit at all, while conversely if you added a +7DEF FF, the chain would contribute little.

Exactly! Beat me to it. You made the argument as well or better than I could have. This was meant as a straight compliment, even though it may seem a bit backhanded.

[Arthur]

I take it you are being sarcastic, but PD and ED does of course add into armour - because it's a totally different thing.

Actually, it's a very good point. It's partially valid. The simple answer is that "resistant defenses" and "normal defenses" are not the same thing. IMO, that's valid in the sense that Normal Defenses are meant to model "resistance to pain", at least to some extent. That works fine when subtracting from STUN damage. However, it may not be so accurate when figuring how much BODY to subtract from Normal Attacks.

If you want to be really accurate, you would use the logarithmic armor-stacking rules when subtracting BODY damage, and regular addition when subtracting STUN. However, Normal and Resistant Defenses are just different enough to let them stack.

Furthermore, the large amounts of STUN damage relative to BODY damage that usually happen make it better in play to have them stack linearly.

It's kind of a kludge, but seemed to work best in play.

[James Gillen]

1. In real life, adding extra thickness to real armour does NOT proportionately increase its protection.
2. In Hero system, an increase of 1 DC or +2 DEF is taken as roughly a doubling (the Abrams versus leather armour discussion)
3. Therefore, adding another thin layer of equivalent protection to your armour via forcefield is NOT going to double its DEF - indeed, the protective benefit will be (at most) +2 DEF (probably less - see #1 above).

Therefore:
a. You CAN cast a force field over your armour - if you like.
b. A +6 DEF FF will not add +6 DEF to 6 DEF chainmail - that would give a total of 12 DEF - or the equivalent a 10 cm thick hardened steel door safe. It will give a small benefit - +2 DEF at most. Adding a +5DEF FF would give almost no benefit at all, while conversely if you added a +7DEF FF, the chain would contribute little.

It's simple math. Hero system is built around an arithmetic progression, not a linear one - therefore you are not intended to (linearly) add. So the "no stacking" argument is not a kludge - it boils down to "the benefit of stacking two identical defences is so small - in both real life and game terms - that it does not warrant giving any extra DEF".

Now I realise that that's an oversimplification - adding an extra layer of protection, would probably give you a small benefit. But frankly, I am too lazy to work out a mathematical formula for calculating the difference. Somebody posted one such on a related thread a day or two ago - as noted above it suggests that adding two defences of equivalent DEF together gives about 1 point extra of DEF. That's the most elegant approach I have seen, but I think I'll stick with "doesn't stack" simply because the result is almost the same and requires far less work.

And if the math doesn't convince you, here's a real life example: Early plate armour was worn over chain mail - mostly because the plate was an addon and armourers weren't skilled enough at that point to make articulated joints, so the chain covered any embarassing gaps. Whoah - hoah! DEF8 plate over DEF6 Chain. DEF14 right? Well, no. The extra protection given by chain under plate was so neglible (while the extra weight was so noticeable) that chain started to disappear from under the plate-covered bits almost instantly, and as articulation improved, it vanished entirely. In other words, in real life, DEF8 plate plus DEF6 Chain was considered inferior to DEF8 plate alone - no significant extra protection, but extra weight.

If chain mail + plate is no better than plate, why should FF + plate be better than plate?

cheers, Mark

As I recall, in the FH books, plate and chain is DEF 7, directly between chain at 6 and full plate at 8.

JG