Initiative, DEX, and Movement.

[KA.]

Here is something that I do not understand completely in the Hero System, even after playing it for years.
I have my own way of handling it, but I would like some other opinions, or perhaps the actual Rules, that I seem to have missed along the way.

(Forgive me if this looks like a "word problem" from 5th Grade Math, but I am trying to make it as clear as possible.)

Character A and Character B are 10 hexes apart.
Both Character A and Character B have a SPD of 4.
Character A has a DEX of 28.
Character A has 20" of Flight.

Character B has a DEX of 23.

It is now Segment 3.

Character A goes first.
"I want to perform a Move Through on Character B!
I am going to Fly at him and tackle him."

Character B says:
"I am going to use my Energy Blast to attack Character A."

What is the sequence of events from there?

Scenario 1:
Since Character A has the higher DEX, he performs his Move Through first.
If Character B is still able after the results, he can fire his EB at Character A.
This is because Character A has the highest DEX, so he acted first.


Scenario 2:
Character A begins to move, but it will take some time for him to reach Character B.
Character B gets the chance to fire his EB, and as long as this does not Knock Back Character A the Move Through happens as planned.
This is because, starting to move was the action that Character A got to take "first".
If he had fired an EB of his own, it would have gone off first.
But, since movement takes time, Character B get to take his shot before Character A arrives.

Scenario 3:
Something else entirely?


Other questions:
Is there a method to determine the "Flight Time" for Character A, and do you use it to resolve things like this in your campaign?

Thanks in advance for the help.

KA.

[Vondy]

Scenario 1

[devlin1]

How far apart are they?

If A is close enough to complete his Move Through in one Phase, then yes, he hits B before B can EB him.

If not, then A moves as far as he can move towards B by the end of the Phase, and B gets his EB attack.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Scenario 1. However, it should be noted that Player B is under no obligation to declare his action until his DEX comes up in the Phase. So Player A will declare his Move Through and carry it out, then Player B will declare that he's attacking Player A (or whatever else he wants to do).

[Kolava]

Look at it this way: The Energy Blast takes time to get to the target also.

The "dex" system is really meant to model reaction time, not combat order. Most manuvers take the same amount of time, so the one which was started first (by the more dextrous character) is the one that finishes first. Overlapping the actions, unless DEXs are indentical or the action takes a while, should always be avoided.

[Wildcat]

We use Scenario 2, But We also use house rules dividing Phases into half Phases. Meaning this: Characters get a Half Phase action, then after everyong who has a move has gone, then the last half phase takes place. I felt that doing this helps to reduce the occurance of the Dex War. That way the Brick of the group still had a chance to do something if a faster character were to say run up, hit and run away (Like a passing Strike) or gave a distinct tactical disadvantage to char that wanted to move closer (say to avoid Rang pen) before shooting. Yes it's caused the combat to become a bit more lengthy, but it's also added alot more tactics to the Players (and NPCs) moves/actions.
ie: "I want to move closer, but then he may get that shot off before I do". or "I'll just do a move-by, and then be 4 hexes away and out of his reach by the time he can do anything... Oh wait hes just over a half move away... Darn he'll be able to react, and could grab me."

Like I said this is a house rule, and YMMV.

WC

[Blue]

Scenario 1 here. Character A does all of his allowed actions, then character B does all his allowed actions.

[KA.]

We use Scenario 2, But We also use house rules dividing Phases into half Phases. Meaning this: Characters get a Half Phase action, then after everyong who has a move has gone, then the last half phase takes place. I felt that doing this helps to reduce the occurance of the Dex War. That way the Brick of the group still had a chance to do something if a faster character were to say run up, hit and run away (Like a passing Strike) or gave a distinct tactical disadvantage to char that wanted to move closer (say to avoid Rang pen) before shooting. Yes it's caused the combat to become a bit more lengthy, but it's also added alot more tactics to the Players (and NPCs) moves/actions.
ie: "I want to move closer, but then he may get that shot off before I do". or "I'll just do a move-by, and then be 4 hexes away and out of his reach by the time he can do anything... Oh wait hes just over a half move away... Darn he'll be able to react, and could grab me."

Like I said this is a house rule, and YMMV.

WC

You know, this is sort of what I have been doing, without really thinking of it as a house rule.

I always just assumed that it took until the end of the Phase to complete a Full Move, so that someone else that also acted in that Phase could take a shot at you while you were moving.

But based on the majority here, and an official answer I got from Steve (after I started this thread), it looks like Scenario 1 is Official.

I may or may not continue doing things as I did, but at least I now know what the Rules say.

(And, this may be an issue to bring up when 6th Ed comes around.)

I understand it from the Game Design point of view, it makes things easier to keep track of, and ensures that people who buy high DEX get what they pay for.

On the other hand, what about Normal Movement during combat?

I just decide to Full Move from here to there when my Phase rolls around.

And on my DEX, BANG! There I am!

I guess that is what happens, just seems a bit counter-intuitive.

I know one thing, if I do start doing things the "official" way, I am going to have a DEX war among my players of epic proportions.

Everyone is going to want to be Bullet Man, the Human Move-By Machine.

Even with the same SPD as the thugs, with some levels to offset penalties, and a little bit of enhanced DEX and a lot of Running, everyone can be The Flash. You can knock down a room full of goons before they have a chance to move.

Why worry about hostage situations?

If you have one point of DEX above the guy with the hostage, you can just clobber him instantly from across the room with a Move Through, before he gets to pull the trigger.

I know that he could have a held action, but it just seems to weight things so far in favor of having the highest DEX on the board, that I don't see why anyone puts points into anything else.

Since "One More DEX Man" can knock you on your rear-end with a Move Through before you can blink, combat is going to take on a whole new set of concepts.

I don't mean to be ranting here, I am just having to wrap my mind around some things that look a little disturbing right now.

I may be reading too much into this.

I find the kind of stuff I am describing above perfectly appropriate for a Speedster (with a whole bunch of Running so that even a "quarter move" will get him there before his opponent acts), but doing it that way for everyone just seems weird.

We both have SPD 2.
I have 11 DEX.
You have 10 DEX.
I have 10" of Running.
You have a gun, already out.
We are 10" apart on Phase 6.

I can run the 20 meters and Tackle you, before you can pull the trigger.

No super powers. No exceptional abilites. I can just trot right over and ram you before you get a chance to move.

For 3 Character Points.

Whoa!

KA.

Who from now on plays nothing but Speedsters.

[Fitz]

Official or not, I don't like the idea of rigid compartmentalization of character actions at all. The doctrine of "no simultanaeity, no overlap" may be a useful one for wargaming purposes, but roleplaying is a lot more than just wargaming.

The way I see it, if a character flies at a rate of 28" per Phase at a SPD of 4, he's going to be flying 28" per 3 seconds -- he doesn't just teleport from one point to another 28" away. Time elapses, therefore someone else acting in those same 3 seconds should be able to affect him during his flight time.

I've toyed with a variety of methods of allowing this without doing away with the advantage of having a higher DEX, and the fairest I've come up with so far is just using opposed DEX rolls.

[Dust Raven]

We use Scenario 2, But We also use house rules dividing Phases into half Phases. Meaning this: Characters get a Half Phase action, then after everyong who has a move has gone, then the last half phase takes place. I felt that doing this helps to reduce the occurance of the Dex War. That way the Brick of the group still had a chance to do something if a faster character were to say run up, hit and run away (Like a passing Strike) or gave a distinct tactical disadvantage to char that wanted to move closer (say to avoid Rang pen) before shooting. Yes it's caused the combat to become a bit more lengthy, but it's also added alot more tactics to the Players (and NPCs) moves/actions.
ie: "I want to move closer, but then he may get that shot off before I do". or "I'll just do a move-by, and then be 4 hexes away and out of his reach by the time he can do anything... Oh wait hes just over a half move away... Darn he'll be able to react, and could grab me."

Like I said this is a house rule, and YMMV.

WC

I played in a game like that and I hated it. Granted, it was mostly because combats took twice as long. The thing is, just about all the tactics and maneuver you'd use using the standard rules go right out the window. Move Throughs and other full move maneuvers become useless unless you have a SPD twice as high as your opponents.

Nothing really wrong with doing it that way, it just eliminates most of the advantages of HTH combat by granting ranged combantants a fair, but unbalancing advantage. This could be good is some games. Just not mine or any I want to play in.

[Dust Raven]

I know one thing, if I do start doing things the "official" way, I am going to have a DEX war among my players of epic proportions.

Everyone is going to want to be Bullet Man, the Human Move-By Machine.

Even with the same SPD as the thugs, with some levels to offset penalties, and a little bit of enhanced DEX and a lot of Running, everyone can be The Flash. You can knock down a room full of goons before they have a chance to move.

In actual game play and character creation, a character can only do this at the sacrifice of something else, like, defenses. Damage Shields, Continuous AE Attacks, Triggers and lots of things can work against such a character. Heck, an agent with a held action and a few levels could probably take him out with one shot as he's approaching.

Why worry about hostage situations?

If you have one point of DEX above the guy with the hostage, you can just clobber him instantly from across the room with a Move Through, before he gets to pull the trigger.

I know that he could have a held action, but it just seems to weight things so far in favor of having the highest DEX on the board, that I don't see why anyone puts points into anything else.

Since "One More DEX Man" can knock you on your rear-end with a Move Through before you can blink, combat is going to take on a whole new set of concepts.

A villain with a hostage should always be either holding an action or having his hostage covered, the latter being the better choice. The heroes should also be able to tell this and know the difference between the two. If his not, then he's doesn't have a gun to the hostage's head or is even ready to put it there. Any hero with enough of DEX and movement, speedster or not, by every right should be able to run up and do him in because the stupid villain didn't know how to to hold a hostage.

I don't mean to be ranting here, I am just having to wrap my mind around some things that look a little disturbing right now.

I may be reading too much into this.

I find the kind of stuff I am describing above perfectly appropriate for a Speedster (with a whole bunch of Running so that even a "quarter move" will get him there before his opponent acts), but doing it that way for everyone just seems weird.

We both have SPD 2.
I have 11 DEX.
You have 10 DEX.
I have 10" of Running.
You have a gun, already out.
We are 10" apart on Phase 6.

I can run the 20 meters and Tackle you, before you can pull the trigger.

No super powers. No exceptional abilites. I can just trot right over and ram you before you get a chance to move.

For 3 Character Points.

Whoa!

KA.

Who from now on plays nothing but Speedsters.

Think of it this way. Your two guys are there, just as you discribe, but your DEX 10 guy, though he has his gun out, has his gun arm resting at his side. Possibly he's aiming someplace else. In any case, he's not aiming at Captain 11 DEX. That extra point of DEX means he can run up and knock the other guy once before he can get a good enough aim to get off a shot. In you use the optional Maneuvers, your DEX 10 guys can Hurry or Hipshot to match or beat DEX 11's DEX, meaning you'd have to buy 7 or more DEX than anyone to always beat them in a DEX contest. 21 points sound a bitter better than 3?

[KA.]

In actual game play and character creation, a character can only do this at the sacrifice of something else, like, defenses. Damage Shields, Continuous AE Attacks, Triggers and lots of things can work against such a character. Heck, an agent with a held action and a few levels could probably take him out with one shot as he's approaching.



A villain with a hostage should always be either holding an action or having his hostage covered, the latter being the better choice. The heroes should also be able to tell this and know the difference between the two. If his not, then he's doesn't have a gun to the hostage's head or is even ready to put it there. Any hero with enough of DEX and movement, speedster or not, by every right should be able to run up and do him in because the stupid villain didn't know how to to hold a hostage.


Think of it this way. Your two guys are there, just as you describe, but your DEX 10 guy, though he has his gun out, has his gun arm resting at his side. Possibly he's aiming someplace else. In any case, he's not aiming at Captain 11 DEX. That extra point of DEX means he can run up and knock the other guy once before he can get a good enough aim to get off a shot. In you use the optional Maneuvers, your DEX 10 guys can Hurry or Hipshot to match or beat DEX 11's DEX, meaning you'd have to buy 7 or more DEX than anyone to always beat them in a DEX contest. 21 points sound a bit better than 3?

Dust Raven,
After giving myself some time the think about this, and with your helpful comments, I think I have made peace with it.
I didn't really have a problem with the order of combat, other than in the case of Move-By and Move-Through. But, what you said helped me wrap my mind around it. Basically the character with the higher DEX that is doing a Full Move is doing just that "Moving". We can assume that since he has some DCV he is not just running in a straight line, he is moving in some type of "serpentine" manner, at least within the hexes he moves through. So, the other person is waiting until he is close to be able to "line up" his shot. And since the moving person has higher DEX, he gets to launch himself at the target before the target gets a shot off, once they get that close.

Thanks so much, I can sleep better now.

But I will have to figure out how to slip this rule "change" into my campaign without my players knowing. I know, I'll blame it on 5th ed. We are still in the process of converting over anyway.

Just kidding.

KA.