Help: Sniper Syndrome

[Lightray]

It sounds like there's more munchkinism going on here than just the combat tactics. Focus-based character with near-brick defenses, focus-based attacks and attack bonuses -- almost classic munchkin character design.

If he's got lots of extra points through foci, how often do those Limitations actually limit him? If they're OAF, he should have to contend with losing them nearly every other adventure. If OIF, maybe they're not available somehow every fourth adventure or so.

Just about any reason you use to begin enforcing the limitation of the Focus will force him to start changing his tactics (if not his character, too). As mentioned above, smart opponents, if he's well-known for his tactics, will take out his foci first.

[Ndreare]

Have I had to deal with this? Yep. We nicknamed the guy behind his back PussyMan. He ALWAYS does this crap. I want a character who can do damage and never gets hurt, and every one of them is built for that. When the villians get sick of it and jump him he cries foul and bitches and moans to high heaven, EVEN if he doesn't really get hurt. Did yours play a lot of D&D? Mine did and he sees every Body and Stun point as sacred cows never to be touched. He always buys up defense and then runs from every fight, leaving the other players to take the punches for him. Even when they bitched at him about it and I talked to him about it he only responded with "Well you guys should get away like me!" When it was pointed out that if all of them moved in different directions and the villians just ganged up on them one at a time, like happened to him several times, he would say "So?"

He never got it and I am glad I don't play with him anymore. Good luck with yours, once they get it in their head that they should never get into actual combat, they are just the superbully "I hit them they don't hit me or I will cry" it's over.

YMMV

I have seen this on more than one occasion. The other players complain to me and I end up in the midle.

I would also recamend putting some combat situations on Starships, Ships at see and other confined situations where he has to be closer so that after a few batles he can see that his character will indeed live. Although a propper mentalist will provide a quick example of a fix you will find he is building "Psi-Dahmners" next so he has MD. This player will not ever be happy. As for the experiance penalty it makes perfect sence while the players are in the heat testing and improving there skills he is doing an "Arcade" shootout not very skill developing at all.


Something else to look for is taking powers that do not fit just because of the power they give him. (Seems you already have a handle on this one though.)


I alctualy had a player who had minmaxing to such a siance that every power even characteristics would be purchased with at leasdt -1/2 in lim's. & whenever they came into play he would freek out start being pissy and tell me I was abusing his character.

The thing I did that finaly put the Player in control was started useing the Efficiansy Rating from Digital Hero number 3. You can also find a greate Excel work sheet for is in the free section on this site. But you will need the Artical for it to make sense.

http://herogames.com/FreeStuff/freestuffherogames.htm

[Dog Soldier]

After all reading through the post I think that the obvious thing would be to structure combat so the players character gets left out. He doesn't get his armor peeled or mentally blasted. Just make sure that there's no way he's going to get clear long range shots. After a while he'll want to get into the action. Of course he might actually like being a reserve element rather than front line.

[zakueins]

Three ways of dealing with this guy-
1)Shame. Make so that everybody knows that he's a coward whom "can't do anything unless he's far away". If he's got any Psych Lims that you can play off of, do it. Immediately.
2)Counter Fire, Part 1-Build a counter-sniper. Somebody just a little bit more munchkin than the character, but CAN be countered by somebody in the team (i.e. if one player has a Force Wall, build a NND attack w/can't penetrate force walls). Run the counter-sniper against your sniper for a few games, making sure to up the skill levels and capability the more your munchkin player doesn't play well with others.
3)Counter Fire, Part 2-"My name is Zed. I've got this big 'o rocket launcher...". Build a brick with a really NASTY ranged, RKA, exposive attack. Something that on a good role will either GM-stun or KILL the Munchkin. And is immune to ranged attacks. Meaning the player's got to get close to deal with him.

[SCUBA Hero]

Quantum Inverse Force Belts - generate force field that is more effective the further away the attack came from. Attack from a few inches away, no real extra def. Attack from 50" out, basically invulnerable.

Ooooh, that's a *great* idea! In general, I mean, not just for the specific situation in this thread.

(swipes idea)

[tesuji]

[/QUOTE]

Hi all,

I have a problem with one of my players in a Champions game. He's apparently affected by the Sniper Syndrome.

His character is a moderately munchkiny (for my campaign anyway) power-armored hero. He's bought lots of Ranged Combat levels and Range Penalty levels via foci.

OK, first item... this should not say "he bought..." It should say "I approved for him..."

That might be the majority of the problem right there. Did you allow him too much OCV/DCV (thru these skill levels) for the campaign to run well?

He usually begins a battle by moving away from the fracas as fast as possible, despite having the second-best overall defenses after the team brick, and the highest resistant defenses. His original concept included an invisibility device, which I vetoed as unfitting for the concept.

snip

I tried having a few quiet words with him but apparently it's not working. Any experience with this kind of problem? Any suggestion?

Thanks in advance.

Over the years i have learned to NEVER worry about my players doing things that work. If their characters make decisions and employ tactics which prove successful, i am in the WRONG to go to the player and ask him to stop. His character SHOULD be doing smart things and as soon as i start asking him to not do smart things, i am stepping into a pile that doesn't smell good.

Balance is not character design. Its not powers. its not spending.

Its challenges.

One of the powered armor guys i built for a player in one of my champions games was built PRECSELY as you describe. The model was "human wont have super reflexes and characteristics or even super reaction time" so his normal OCv and DCV and SPEED would be low for supers. His suit would have fast jets (high movement) and long range attacks (PSLs to offset range and some OCv bonuses as well) so that he could hit you from 32" with no rang penalty. He had enough speed to stay out there most of the time. A super would rush in to maybe 16" and shoot at a -4 for range penalty but then this guy would putt back out to around 32" and shoot back with none.

It played great for about 2 years until the campaign failed.

See, the challenges did not always take place on a football field or open sky

About a third of the fights took place inside, where encounter distances were less than 10m at the most. In those circumstances, his range levels were useless and he felt that with much pain and suffering. During those engagements, his character underperformed the rest. its was not uncommon for him to get KOed in those or at least need a lot of shop time to fix the suit.

About a third of the fights did indeed take place in broader environments, where he could do his best to do what he does best. In those cases he usually outperformed the others. These were the "Man, Gunslinger was ON tonight!" nights.

About a third of the time, the fights were a mix, some inside, some outside, characters shifting back and forth, and in those it really depended on how well he chose his tactics and such. I remember him getting annoyed in character when his brick teammate punched a villain thru a wall and into a building... because now Gunslinger had to move in close to get line of sight and, of course, that got him pummelled a round later. After that, Gunslinger would always remind the other heroes to line up their shots so as to knock people into the open, not into cover.

Balancing MR Range is a matter of scenario design.

Face it, nothing balances itself. You balance things by scripting your encounters over a selected variety of settings and necessities to MAKE IT HAPPEN tht each character plays out balanced.

So, mix up your scenario types so that in enough of them he needs to get close in order to be effective. Have some villains who can redirect long ranged attack, Have some villains who can disable the foci he has those skill levels thru, so that he has to complete the conflict without them... that will bring him closer. Dont do this all the time, just enough to make it a challenge for him.

[Kevin]

Maybe you could deal with all of this in role-play

Your team leader, or tough brick character, or whomever is in charge speaks to the character in character about his tendency to hang back in combat.

Discusses tactics and has a hand to hand training session.

Very Danger Roomesque.

All within the relatively safe confines of the game.

Then throw some agent type NPC's at the guy that you know won't cream him close up.

Build his confidence up.

And at the same time, if needed, you show him the mechanics of tracking stun and body.

Really, it sounds like the guy just doesn't think he can take a punch.

Maybe you could show the player how do do that by showing the character.

If that doesn't work, then you could do the long distance ambush to teach him the beauty of having teammates watch your back!

[Solomon]

Wow, thanks for the good and plentyful feedback!

A clarification: I do not feel that the character is unbalanced or too powerful, just that the player (and the group) could get much more fun if he stopped overacting on his fears.

Example... if faced with a squad of Viper goons:
A) The team Martial Artist would wade right in, Sweep his attacks, take a few hits, and stand victorious over a pile of senseless opponents by the end of the first turn.
B) The Sniper would keep maximum useful distance, snipe his opponents one at a time, and put down his last opponent after six long turns of trading fire.

A is just as efficient and more fun than B, at least for a mostly four-color campaign.

I agree with Sbarron, Kevin and other who suggested I should build his confidence up. I'm currently thinking of addressing the problem as an in-game issue, prodding the character to greater heroism and hoping that the player gets the message. If that fails, I might try engineering a few combat scenarios to force him to rethink his tactics and hope he does the right thing. I'm afraid that would have to be a solo session, though. Otherwise he might just wait for his teammates to save the day.

[KA.]

Solomon,
I know that you have talked with the Player, but what did you say?
I ask, because I had this problem with one of my players, and was able to resolve it, by talking with him.
I run a Four Color campaign, so basically no one dies. People get hurt, bad things happen, there is a lot of emotion on the line when things go wrong, but I don't kill players.
However, I had a player that would constantly hang back, build up his defenses, and try to take out the villains without any risk to himself.

I had a talk with him about the genre, and this is basically what I told him.

The four-color genre is not about life and death, it is about right and wrong.
Villains are not going to kill you, they are going to do things that cause harm to innocent people, if you do not stop them. If your character is developed properly, with the proper background, there should be reasons built in as to why you would be willing to sacrifice yourself to help others.
The sacrifice itself is just as important as winning.
Every time a hero takes a punch, it is one less that would be thrown at an innocent citizen.
While your character will only die under extremely unusual circumstances, it is par for the course for them to be punched, kicked, blasted, thrown, knocked unconscious, kidnapped, put in deathtraps, and generally beaten to a pulp. These elements move Superhero stories along.

If Spiderman beats the Green Goblin the first time they fight, how will he ever hear about his Master Plan?

If Reed Richards pulls out the Ultimate Nullifier when Galactus is still a light year away, how will he hear about the tragic fate of The Silver Surfer?

This is not a game of checkers, we are trying to tell a story. Part of that story is the hero, after taking a beating and licking his wounds, heroically rising up to fight again. Hiding, sniping, and running away short circuit all of that. Which means they also short-circuit the fun of the game.
Read comics! Take a look at some of the Marvel Essentials or DC Archives.
Heroes take a pounding all the time, it is what makes them heroic. Anyone can snipe with a rifle from 600 yards away, it takes a hero to take his lumps and keep on fighting. This isn't about winning, the only way to win is for everyone to enjoy themselves. Four color role-playing isn't playing chess, it is more like making mud pies. You can't stand back with a long stick and try to keep your shoes clean, you have to wade in and get your hands dirty.


KA.

[Trebuchet]

The four-color genre is not about life and death, it is about right and wrong.
Villains are not going to kill you, they are going to do things that cause harm to innocent people, if you do not stop them. If your character is developed properly, with the proper background, there should be reasons built in as to why you would be willing to sacrifice yourself to help others.
The sacrifice itself is just as important as winning.
Every time a hero takes a punch, it is one less that would be thrown at an innocent citizen.
While your character will only die under extremely unusual circumstances, it is par for the course for them to be punched, kicked, blasted, thrown, knocked unconscious, kidnapped, put in deathtraps, and generally beaten to a pulp. These elements move Superhero stories along.

If Spiderman beats the Green Goblin the first time they fight, how will he ever hear about his Master Plan?

If Reed Richards pulls out the Ultimate Nullifier when Galactus is still a light year away, how will he hear about the tragic fate of The Silver Surfer?

This is not a game of checkers, we are trying to tell a story. Part of that story is the hero, after taking a beating and licking his wounds, heroically rising up to fight again. Hiding, sniping, and running away short circuit all of that. Which means they also short-circuit the fun of the game.
Read comics! Take a look at some of the Marvel Essentials or DC Archives.
Heroes take a pounding all the time, it is what makes them heroic. Anyone can snipe with a rifle from 600 yards away, it takes a hero to take his lumps and keep on fighting. This isn't about winning, the only way to win is for everyone to enjoy themselves. Four color role-playing isn't playing chess, it is more like making mud pies. You can't stand back with a long stick and try to keep your shoes clean, you have to wade in and get your hands dirty.

That's brilliant, and as good an explanation of four-color as I've ever seen. I'm cut 'n' pasting that for distribution to my group.

[Koshka]

Have you taken a look at "Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth"?

[Minor Spoilers]

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There's some scenes where running away and sniping would be an effective technique, but there's some where it's just not gonna work. The outbreak of the Ophidian Plague, for instance -- I'm certain he doesn't have enough OCV to target the virus without killing the person it's infected. Or one chase sequence through an abandoned section of the sewer system.

[Bengal]

Even though the guy is roleplaying after a fashion, I thin kit's okay to restrict his XP flow. If he needs two points for another PSL, give him the two points, and give everyone else three... for a new skill or whatever.

This guy strieks me as the kind of fellow who has never read a superhero story. Lend him a short run of your favoite team or solo book as homework, so he can see that sometimes, people get knocked out, powers can be unreliable, and teamwork can win the day much more effectively than a certain megablast.

[McCoy]

Thanks for the feedback, you helped me put a finger on my issue.

JLXC more or less nails it, my problem is with the player and his attitute. "STUN and BODY points as holy cows" describes it, and too much D&D might indeed be the cause.

I had one of those. Not as bad, but it seemed like every character had increased PD & ED, damage resistance, damage reduction, non-focused armor (hardened), focused armor (double hardened), and force field. The characters would get in close and personal and mix it up in combat (usually Powered Armor/Brick/EP hybreds), but the player, not the character, would seem to be boardering on a panic attack if the character ever lost a pip of BODY.

I assume too much D&D too.

[Lightray]

If you think the problem is lack of confidence and lack of understanding of the superhero genre, for God's sake don't punish the player. Don't make up villains designed specifically to screw with his character, don't keep putting him in situations where his tactics are useless, don't single him out for less experience than everyone else if you're not specifically rewarding the other players for something they did.

Those are just going to make things worse.

If it's a lack of confidence, you need to set up situations where he can take on opponents without needing to snipe them. Probably ones he does not feel threatened by -- like thugs. If he doesn't take the bait, add in something like a hostage or DNPC needing rescue to motivate him.

Once he's confident in close combat, you can start hitting him with some attacks that do some damage but don't take him out of the fight. Something spectacular with lots of knockback would be a good choice, since the knockback always makes the attack look impressive even if it doesn't do much damage.

Once he's used to success in close quarters combat, you can whallop him with a big bruiser attack, so he can learn that sniping is sometimes good tactics.

[Dragon]

Quantum Inverse Force Belts - generate force field that is more effective the further away the attack came from. Attack from a few inches away, no real extra def. Attack from 50" out, basically invulnerable.

Personally, I like the SHAME route. I tend to run games that are heavily RPed and something that that can devistate a characters reputation. I also ALWAYS have a beautiful yet hard nosed, tell it like it is, highly opinionated reporter in the game to tell the players just HOW badly they've messed up, or sing their accolades across the city. It works well for some IG problems.

But like many have said, this seems more of a player problem then a character problem, so rather then dealing with the character....my opinion is you have to deal with the player. Show him that its ok to get hit occasionally, I really liked KA's post about just that. If it doesn't clear up, yeah, penalize the player with exp.

I have a player in my game who, if not prompted to do something..ANYTHING... will sit quietly the whole game. Even during dramatic or combat scenes, you have to pretty much yell at her to get her to react...and usually its the wrong reaction... She's punished for her lack of attention (she watches tv while we game) by a lack of XP. So much to the extent that she's gotten about 10 exp while the rest of the players have gotten around 35+.

Now....about that quantum inverse force belt? What kind of advantage or limitiation would that be to get stronger the farther out it goes?