Open Game License and the d20 System

[Nato]

That's a cool benefit to using HERO. Actually, I've noticed that role-playing really hones a number of different skills.

Oh, I was joking above if it came across as snide. One of the things that really bugs me on any of the HERO basing threads is when people talk about the math you have to do as the hardest thing in the world, like it's calculus. Which we all know be not true. Someone mentioned that it was math intensive, but I've never considered it to be that - even with the multiplication and dividing in character creation. 1) It's not that hard. 2) There is a thing called a calculator. 3) There was even a chart for it in the BBB. So I just get irritated when people bring that up as a flaw of the system.

Not that anyone here was saying it was, so never mind.

[Lord Mhoram]

Lots of intelligent and interesting posts on this thread, I like it!

I’m just going to offer up my opinions on all of the myriad stuff that has come up in this thread. I manage a game shop, so I can drop some retailer perspective, plus some of the commentary I have heard from customers. For reference we are a very small shop, catering primarily to the collectable gaming crowd, with some comics and some RPGs (which are my areas of responsibility, as the owner handles the rest).

Is d20 good for the industry. I thinks so. When Wizards released D&D3e and the OGL so many companies saw a potential there that lots of new stuff was coming out. There was excitement in the industry, and that excitement traveled down to the retailer and customers. People were excited to be roleplaying again. Add to that the timing (in the non RPG market). Magic:the Gathering was going through a year where most players considered the sets pretty bad, Pokemon was really slowing down, Yu-Gi-Oh hadn’t really caught on, and LOTR wasn’t out yet. The non roleplayer (or casual RPer) had extra money and saw the D&D books, and either to try something new, or for nostalgia’s sake picked them up. There were a lot of supplements, and a lot of people bought a lot of them. This encouraged new players. I know of at least 10 people who are roleplaying now because of this- either new, or hadn’t roleplayed in years started up again. One of these players has bought 3 HERO supplements because I talk it up so much, and he sees me reading it or working on campaigns or characters in the store.

Now, there is a d20 glut and the retailer has to be careful what he orders. Derek commented on older stock not getting shelved. This is true. There is too much stuff out there. Most of our RPG sales come within the first 45 days of a product’s life. After that, if we stock it, it is because of real interest by the fanbase, or to be honest real interest by one of the staff members (who will talk it up, just because they like it). We have about 8 d20 books we keep no matter what, and always restock. As an aside-I’ve talked the owner into letting me do the same for HERO. We have enough guaranteed sales for HERO that the profit from those books will pay for a shelf copy; given we only keep one of each on the shelf (as I said we are a small store, and RPGs are a side note), but we do have one of everything DOJ has published on the shelf. Most d20 stuff we stock one or two, and when it is off the shelves we bring in something new. Lots of flavor of the month.

Given that, overall RPG sales at our store have fallen. The initial excitement has worn off, the companies making collectable games have good games out, and the casual player has all / most of the supplements they want for gaming.

Referring to the change in the SRD that The Emerged mentioned. The released SRD was not changed. The stuff that had been used prior to that point was unofficial, working under a gentleman’s agreement. Anything, once released as Open Content cannot be closed again. So what is now released in the SRD, formally published, cannot be unreleased.

On the “requires the players handbook”- If a book has the d20 logo, it cannot describe how to create a character (roll dice for stats, choose a class, choose a race) and cannot have the experience point chart. That’s it.

On new blood in HERO. I think part of that is HERO designer, although that is just speculation. I’ve seen a few questions over at the rules questions section of the board from self proclaimed new people to the system, and the questioner is obviously using HD (I remember one about compound power, but there were others). I think that the software is helping over come the “There is too much math” misconception for HERO, and of course the superpowers database is going to help that too.

That’s my rambling for the thread.

[rowport]

Hey, guys! As usual on the HERO boards, I am greatly encouraged that this discussion seems balanced, and not overly heated, like on so many other gaming boards. I do not have enough data to really weigh in on the merits of d20 (and seemingly increasing) OGL publishing. But, ancedotally, I will say that d20/OGL is a large factor in bringing me back into regular gaming. I really like the ease of shifting genre to genre quickly and easily, and having enough content available to pick and choose the best-written material to "customize" the feel of the game. Essentially, d20/OGL goes a long way towards creating a universal game engine, much like GURPS, HERO, or <shudder> even Palladium, but because there are so many publishers working on new products, you have the advantage of scale versus just Steve Jackson Games or HERO. I readily agree that lots of d20 products are utter crap, but presumably with a little research most buyers can avoid the bad stuff in favor of the good stuff. And, there is lots and lots of good stuff out there. I think with publishers like Mongoose and Green Ronin you are already seeing the cream rise to the top, as it were, and that just helps gamers IMHO. Now, I realize that some folks here (like Monolith!) will say HERO is best for all games- and it may be. Conversely, there will always be HERO detractors who insist that their WotC/GURPS/etc. game system is the only good answer. But, I suspect that there is a larger pool of gamers who like multiple games and genres, like me, and enjoy the flexibility that d20 has created. (I just bought some d20 Deadlands last night, and feel nearly ready to play already- how cool is that??)

[allen]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

On the “requires the players handbook”- If a book has the d20 logo, it cannot describe how to create a character (roll dice for stats, choose a class, choose a race) and cannot have the experience point chart. That’s it.

Hmmm... I think the publisher of the d20 product also cannot introduce new classes (thus the proliferation of prestige classes) and change existing classes. And, maybe, a publisher can't change stats (Str, Dex, etc.) This is, admittedly, tied up in character creation, but it makes the requirements for d20 a little more strict.

There's been exceptions to this -- Fantasy Flight's [I]Dragonstar[/I} (I think that's the name) has new classes; the product had to be approved by WotC though.

Also, not all d20 product are in compliance with the license, so there are probably examples to be found of product violating the above.

[Starcorp Man]

Nothing with changing classes, but you can't add additional stats.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by allen
Hmmm... I think the publisher of the d20 product also cannot introduce new classes (thus the proliferation of prestige classes) and change existing classes. And, maybe, a publisher can't change stats (Str, Dex, etc.) This is, admittedly, tied up in character creation, but it makes the requirements for d20 a little more strict.

Classes are perfectly valid. You just cannot describe what goes into creating the character other than listing a class to be chosen -plugging in a new base class is fine. Dragonstar, Spycraft, Diomin, Fading Suns d20, Farscape, Deadlands d20 they all have new base classes. Mongoose (and someone else, GR maybe) have a series of books introducing new base classes.

Stats can be added or removed, but you cannot say how you achieve the number that associates with them. Although adding and removing stats take your game further from the "D20 base model" and could make it less interesting to your potential market (eg D&D players).

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Nato
That's a cool benefit to using HERO. Actually, I've noticed that role-playing really hones a number of different skills.

Oh, I was joking above if it came across as snide. One of the things that really bugs me on any of the HERO basing threads is when people talk about the math you have to do as the hardest thing in the world, like it's calculus. Which we all know be not true. Someone mentioned that it was math intensive, but I've never considered it to be that - even with the multiplication and dividing in character creation. 1) It's not that hard. 2) There is a thing called a calculator. 3) There was even a chart for it in the BBB. So I just get irritated when people bring that up as a flaw of the system.

Not that anyone here was saying it was, so never mind.

I understand it, but it is not just multiply and divide, but you also need to know which goes first, which goes second, when do you put in the adders, what is the base for the slots compared to the pool, etc. It reminds me a bit of learning to program in Lisp and making sure you had all the parens in the right space. I see some of the powers here that have over a half dozen adders and it boggles my mind. In d20, I believe that the longest mathematical formula needed is having to divide a final total by an integer. To "argue" the 3 points you make (I say argue just to show possible responses to them):
1) Not that hard to you. There are many people out there who have incredible trouble with long division and fractions - things that ARE needed in Hero
2) The calculator is useless if you don't know what series to put the numbers in. Big difference with 60/2+1 and 60/(2+1)
3) May be in the BBB, but not in 5th Ed for the new gamers.

[allen]

a-yup, I'm wrong about character classes and abilities... the Mandatory Restrictions from the d20 System usage guide (there are other requirements and such, for complete info you can download the guide from www.wizards.com/d20)

No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of any kind that:

<sum> Describe a process for Creating a Character
<sum> Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character

No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide.

No Covered Product may include "Miniatures".

No Covered Product may use the term "Core Book" on its cover, title, advertising, or self-reference.

Concerning the 'change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term: Elsewhere, Strength, Dexterity, etc are listed as Defined Game Terms -- so I don't think you can really mess with those, but you could add another ability (like Comeliness from the ol' Unearthed Arcana). Anyway, that's my reading of the guide; I'm no lawyer.

N.B. This is not in reference to use of OGL per se; these are the mandatory requirements for use of the d20 system logo and associated trademarks. Just wanted to be clear about that.

[TheEmerged]

Um, pardon my ignorance of legal issues but... did they make one heck of an exception for Sovereign Stone, then? Because they have a LOT of character creation material (including classes) there, and it's got a big ole' d20 logo on it.

[TheEmerged]

Interesting, I'd never noticed the XP chart was missing until now.

However, I stand behind my question -- because Sovereign Stone also reprints a few of the "standard" classes like Fighter, Barabarian, & Rogue.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Interesting, I'd never noticed the XP chart was missing until now.

However, I stand behind my question -- because Sovereign Stone also reprints a few of the "standard" classes like Fighter, Barabarian, & Rogue.

The stuff that has been released by wizards as open content (the SRD) can be reprinted by anyone. It is open, just like anyone else's open content. So all of the classes are fair game.

[TheEmerged]

Okay, thanks for the clarifications.

[Gonster]

It's simple really...

If you want to use the d20 System logo, you can't say "Roll 4d6, drop the lowest. Do this six times and assign to the Six Attributes."

You can't include an alternate way of coming up with the six stats.

You can't include the Experience table -- how many XPs you need to level up.

You have to put "Requires the (blank) Corebook published by Wizards of the Coast."

Lou

[ShinDangaioh]

Gee. Does that mean I'm doing something wrong in using the Everquest books instead of the D&D books to get the character creation rules?

Just kidding. But if I was really fanatic about stabbing WotC, I would go the Everquest route and forget the WotC even existed.

GoO even put up on their website exactly why they went into D20. At least they are trying to stand out from the crowd by putting out high quality products.


Their are some companies who have used the profits they gained from D20 to get their own systems up and running. And they are doing quite well.