Air Hero: "Into the wild blue yonder..."

[AlHazred]

I was reading The Ultimate Vehicle for the seventh time, really getting into "design mode," when I hit the Web. While surfing, I came across a really good site, the US Air Force Museum. There's plenty of great descriptions of a variety of planes, and my mind immediately started to convert reality to fantasy. I wonder, what sort of aircraft have people made use of in game?

Since my current campaign has a PC military test pilot, I plan on including a lot of air battles and stunts for him to do. I decided to stat out a few of these great planes; since I like to know what other good ideas people have had, I thought I'd post them online. Not wanting to step on DOJ's toes, I figure on statting only planes I don't expect them to put in their Vehicles Compendium book.

[AlHazred]

[Edit - I deleted the Wright Military Flyer. I have no idea where the extra space was coming in, but it affected readability. I'll repost it as an attachment to a later post.]

[Chris Goodwin]

Just so you know...a vehicle of Size 7 has a mass of 12.5 tons...its STR can't lift its mass, therefore it can't move. I'd make it Size 2 with perhaps +5 STR to lift the pilot and a Physical Limitation to represent its awkward size (wingspan and length). Otherwise, looks good.

[JmOz]

Archer: Could you tell me where it says that? My understanding was that the Str of the vehicle represented how much over its own weight it could carry.

[AlHazred]

That would normally be true; however, TUV also states that it's okay to adjust the weight, as long as the other Size effects stay the same. They even give the example of aircraft carriers, which have a weight based on Size of 400 kilotons, but which should actually weigh about 50-90 kilotons. The Wright Military Flyer is actually an incredibly light plane, almost a kite; you're probably right that the STR should be higher, but I wouldn't place it higher than, say, 25 or 30.

I think I'll edit my post to remove the text, and instead post it as a Word document.

[Chris Goodwin]

That's never been my understanding, and I've never seen any vehicle writeups that would reflect that. I've extrapolated it from the general idea that a character whose mass is greater than his STR has to push his STR to move, and the fact that a character's STR is the amount he can basically get off the ground and stagger a step or two with before having to put it back down (FREd p. 20). Ummm...now that I think about it I've never seen where it says one way or the other (FREd p. 314 is a little unclear to me).

Posting on rules questions.....

Edit: TUV p. 10 sez "Generally, a vehicle loaded with more weight than its STR can lift cannot move..." I've got a rules question posted on this.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by AlHazred
That would normally be true; however, TUV also states that it's okay to adjust the weight, as long as the other Size effects stay the same. They even give the example of aircraft carriers, which have a weight based on Size of 400 kilotons, but which should actually weigh about 50-90 kilotons. The Wright Military Flyer is actually an incredibly light plane, almost a kite; you're probably right that the STR should be higher, but I wouldn't place it higher than, say, 25 or 30.

Right; probably +2 or +3 STR would be enough for a pilot and passenger. I followed the link you posted and looked at the Military Flyer's stats, which is why I posted. Given TUV, I'd probably let someone fudge it by about 5 STR worth at most, otherwise I'd want to see extra STR; given the example of the aircraft carrier, I'd say buy enough Size to get it to 100 kilotons and take a Physical Limitation to represent additional loss of DCV due to size, etc. Actually, I'd question the need to buy enough Size to represent a 400 kiloton ship when the fully loaded vessel isn't going to exceed 90 kilotons. On the Flyer, I might go Size 3 to give a loaded mass of 800kg tops and fudge from there.

If it matters, I assume that the mass you've gotten from Size is the final mass of the vehicle.

I'm actually not wanting to argue your stats on it at all; we've got different assumptions of what the vehicle's stats represent, which is cool. Mainly, I'm working up, off and on, a set of house rules, at least mostly compatible with the default vehicle system, for tracking mass of crew, weapons, etc. a bit more closely. My thinking on vehicle rules, and my desire for more detail, is colored by Robot Warriors, which tracks mass more closely than do TUV and the Hero default vehicle rules.

More later when I have more time.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by JmOz
Archer: Could you tell me where it says that? My understanding was that the Str of the vehicle represented how much over its own weight it could carry.

Correct. TUV p10, lower left:
"STRENGTH
_______________
This represents the lifting STR of the vehicle; it indicates how much the vehicle can carry (in addition to its own mass)"
(Emphasis added)

Further, the mass of a vehicle may be altered, if all stat/game related numbers are left untouched.

Personally, I'd definately sell back more BODY than you did.

--
There are ways which lead to everything, and if we have sufficient will we should always have sufficient means. -- La Rochefoucauld, Francois De

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by AlHazred
Here goes nothing...
{snip HTML-infected post}

The length of 28' 11" is closer to size 6.
Its mass is 336kg. Using FrED p304, a Vehicle of that mass should have a BODY of 11 or 12; I would lower it even more than that, considering its fragility.
It should not have all its Running removed, as it needs it for takeoff. Compare to TUV p74-83, where only the Flying Carpet, Airship (Zeppelin), and AH-64 Apache Longbow Attack Helicopter have had their Running sold back. (BTW, I think it's an error to have sold back all the helicopter's Running)

[Edit - This looks terrible. Just awful. I'll play around with it, but I think maybe I'll just post a Word attachment...]

No need. Just remove the HTML tags; better yet, don't import them from whatever program you're using.

--
Excellence means when a man or woman asks of himself more than others do. -- Gasset, Jose Ortega Y

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by JmOz
Archer: Could you tell me where it says that? My understanding was that the Str of the vehicle represented how much over its own weight it could carry.

HERO Sytem Rulebook 5th edition; page 314;

(under "STRENGTH")
"This is the lifting STR of the vehicle; it indicates how much the vehicle can carry (in addition to it's own mass)."

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
HERO Sytem Rulebook 5th edition; page 314;

(under "STRENGTH")
"This is the lifting STR of the vehicle; it indicates how much the vehicle can carry (in addition to it's own mass)."

er,... um,... I mean; What BasilDrag said

[Chris Goodwin]

Uhhh.... wow. I'm wrong. That's like a shift in my worldview. I'd always assumed that the vehicle's mass included stuff like the crew, some allowance for cargo, and so on.

[Chris Goodwin]

And, following my own post up....

AlHazred, I apologize. I seem to have been a bit argumentative, which was not my intention, and I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by BasilDrag
It should not have all its Running removed, as it needs it for takeoff. Compare to TUV p74-83, where only the Flying Carpet, Airship (Zeppelin), and AH-64 Apache Longbow Attack Helicopter have had their Running sold back. (BTW, I think it's an error to have sold back all the helicopter's Running)

I thought this at first, but think on this: you can use your Flight while on the ground, and don't have to worry about falling if you're below your stall velocity.

[AlHazred]

Hey, I posted for comments. I appreciate all comments, especially those that differ from my own for good reasons; I've been known to change my mind from time to time...

As far as the vehicle's mass, my reading of TUV seems to indicate that it's the "size" of the vehicle that goes into determining the Size stat; in other words, it's the physical dimensions that count, as far as length, height, width, etc. From what I read, it seems to me weight is meant to be variable within the range of "zero" to "the weight based on Size".

Originally posted by Basildrag
The length of 28' 11" is closer to size 6.

Sure, it's closer. I always thought that the Length/Width/Height stats under "Size" indicated the maximum, in which case, since the 28' 11" is over the Size 6 Length and under the Size 7 Length, you go with Size 7. I'll fiddle with it today at home.

As far as Running goes, the Wright plane was physically pushed out to the airstrip by a couple of strong guys (two guys with 15 STR should be able to do it). You'll note the absence of wheels; instead, two runners allow it to be slid along the ground. Forward velocity is imparted by the props, which drive the plane along the ground until it reaches its Stall Velocity. At that point, it can take off. I'll think about it, maybe "Pulled Vehicle Gliding" is in line. Hey, what do you want for 1909 flight technology?