Cost of aid?

**M-3** · Mar 14th, '03, 05:47 PM

Sorry of this has already been done to death here. I'm new to these fora. I looked around and couldn't find any discussion on it.

Anyways:
I was wondering why the cost of Aid has gotten doubled since the previous edition?

It seemed a bit expensive to me before and it looks like a really bad deal to me now with the present cost. It's not in the errata, so I'll assume it isn't a typo.

Particularly with the "Self Only" it becomes a bad deal. For 13 pts, for example, I can boost a power or characteristic by 2D6 pts that will fade at the rate of 5 pts per turn. I can't really see why anyone would want to do that when they could just purchase 13 pts worth of the characteristic in question permanently.

Any thoughts on this? Anything I'm missing? Steve?

Thanks in advance,
M.

**GamePhil** · Mar 14th, '03, 06:07 PM

There are a number of ways to make Aid a perfectly reasonable, or even abusive, Power. However, I'll start with the most fundamental change: Aid now costs 0 Endurance. That makes up for half the cost difference right there.

You can put Aid in a Multipower, use it to up your Characteristic, then switch to another slot (possibly boosting that Characteristic still more).

You can buy up the Aid maximum as a 2:1 offer, allowing you to boost the Characteristic more than buying it straight, if you have the time.

Without the Self Only Limtation, of course, you can just keep slapping it on your party. A 6d6 Strength or Dexterity Aid is quite powerful: give your buddy +20 STR, then give your other buddy a +20 STR, and so on.

Of course, my cat is currently keeping me from accessing my book by sitting on my chest, so I could be wrong about some detail.

**M-3** · Mar 14th, '03, 07:17 PM

Well, I suppose it could be made to work out to something that isn't completely horrendous with some creative use of ads and lims but by default it strikes me as being a bit overpriced. Especially considering that Succor bought to 0 END only costs 7.5 pts per +1D6.

I predict that a lof of people will want to buy Succor when I start am FH campaign and noone will even consider standard Aid for even a microsecond. Well, okay one of my friends is bad at math, but other than him...

Cheers,
M.

Edit: BTW, thanks for the reply. Nearly forgot my manners there.

**Lord Liaden** · Mar 14th, '03, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by M-3
Well, I suppose it could be made to work out to something that isn't completely horrendous with some creative use of ads and lims but by default it strikes me as being a bit overpriced. Especially considering that Succor bought to 0 END only costs 7.5 pts per +1D6.

I predict that a lof of people will want to buy Succor when I start am FH campaign and noone will even consider standard Aid for even a microsecond. Well, okay one of my friends is bad at math, but other than him...

Cheers,
M.

Edit: BTW, thanks for the reply. Nearly forgot my manners there.

Except that if the character with the Succor gets Stunned or Knocked Out, all the benefits of Succor turn off for everyone. Of course, you could buy it up to Persistent, at which point Succor would cost 10 pts. per D6, same as for Aid. Also, Succor has no range; if you want a character to continue to have the benefits of the Power when he moves away from the possessor of Succor, you'd have to add the Ranged Advantage. With Aid, you just boost someone once, and he retains the benefits wherever he goes until the points start to fade.

Considering all the factors (which GamePhil admirably covered), I consider the new Aid to be reasonably priced, and to balance well with Succor.

**TheEmerged** · Mar 14th, '03, 09:21 PM

Point The First: Aid isn't as expensive as you think it is. Yes, the base cost is 10 points per d6 and that's not a typo (we knew that one was going to happen well before 5th Edition hit the printers).

So what am I talking about? Aid no longer costs END. That's not a typo either. Figure in the "Costs END" disadvantage at -1/2 and that's not-quite 7 points per d6 before advantages. That's a more reasonable cost.

Point The Second: While less of an issue in superheroic campaigns, Aid at 5 points per d6 was a cheap way for characters to temporarily get around Normal Characteristic Maxima in campaigns where characters have NCM by default. Maybe your experience is different, but in mine few battles last beyond 2 Turns anyway. Again, I want to emphasize this was mostly a problem in NCM-default campaigns.

***Derek Hiemforth*** · Mar 14th, '03, 09:37 PM

Another, more philosophical, factor to consider is its relationship to Drain. At its core, Aid is the reverse of Drain. (And Succor is the reverse of Suppress.) Therefore, it's logical to expect it to cost the same as Drain (and Succor to cost the same as Suppress) unless there are other mitigating factors. Their mechanics are a little different, but the trade-offs seem about balanced: Aid doesn't cost END, but Drain doesn't have a ceiling on its effect. I don't see any pressing reason why Aid should have a different cost than Drain.

**Chris Goodwin** · Mar 16th, '03, 01:27 PM

Take 2d6 of Aid. Apply the +2 for any characteristics you want. Give it the Delayed Effect and/or Trigger Advantages. Buy it Autofire and buy the max way up. Pile about -5 worth of Extra Time, Costs END w/Increased END Cost, Focus, Gestures and Incantations, et fricking cetera. Put it in a Multipower. For just a few Real Points you've got effectively as many characteristic points as you want (depending on how many Triggers you set up). Once you've maxed out your Aid, switch your Multipower points to something else.

That's why 5 point per d6 Aid is abusive.

Yes, I played alongside a guy who did this regularly.

**zornwil** · Mar 16th, '03, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by archer
Take 2d6 of Aid. Apply the +2 for any characteristics you want. Give it the Delayed Effect and/or Trigger Advantages. Buy it Autofire and buy the max way up. Pile about -5 worth of Extra Time, Costs END w/Increased END Cost, Focus, Gestures and Incantations, et fricking cetera. Put it in a Multipower. For just a few Real Points you've got effectively as many characteristic points as you want (depending on how many Triggers you set up). Once you've maxed out your Aid, switch your Multipower points to something else.

That's why 5 point per d6 Aid is abusive.

Yes, I played alongside a guy who did this regularly.

No, that's not not why 5 points per d6 is abusive, that's why unrestricted character design can be abusive. Especially with a "-5" level of limitations.

***Derek Hiemforth*** · Mar 16th, '03, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by archer
Yes, I played alongside a guy who did this regularly.

Did this campaign have a GM?

**Dust Raven** · Mar 17th, '03, 12:52 AM

Aid doesn't cost END? Where does it say that?

<Flips through FREd...reads Aid...>

Well okay...that's kinda weird. Why doesn't Aid cost END anymore? Doesn't that kinda make it too powerful or something?

**TheEmerged** · Mar 17th, '03, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Dust Raven
Aid doesn't cost END? Where does it say that?

<Flips through FREd...reads Aid...>

Well okay...that's kinda weird. Why doesn't Aid cost END anymore? Doesn't that kinda make it too powerful or something?

If the official types want to answer I'd like to hear it, but I'm betting it's pretty much what I said -- that Aid with the Costs END limitation is about the right price for Aid. 5 pts per d6 is too low, but 10 pts per d6 *without a healing function* is too high.

**misterdeath** · Mar 17th, '03, 03:43 PM

My guess is that it's a combo of factors. You've got Derek's symmetry, plus Archer's abuse. 5 seemed too cheap, so it got raised to 10. But that's too expensive so the End cost part got dropped. That makes it about 7 if you want to add the Cost End back.

Plus, because now it doesn't cost End, you can't stick it into an Elemental Control. For what that's worth, I suppose.

D

**Gary** · Mar 17th, '03, 08:46 PM

The big problem was frameworks. A typical 60 pt multipower could have multiple 12D6 aids or slightly fewer dice with advantages for a ridiculously cheap price. Now, it's reduced to 6D6 which is much better. The same problem occurred with HA, and the only solution is to increase the active cost.

**Dust Raven** · Mar 18th, '03, 01:56 AM

I just read the (brief) reply from Steve, and though I accept the new rule and will use it, I'm still a bit confused by it. I'll have to see how it goes. There is a character in my campaign with varous Aid Powers. I'm still trying to swallow the certain Powers that don't belong in Framworks including everything that doesn't cost END....now I have to add Aid to that list.

**GamePhil** · Mar 18th, '03, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by Dust Raven
I'm still trying to swallow the certain Powers that don't belong in Framworks including everything that doesn't cost END....now I have to add Aid to that list.

I just want to make sure: did he say Frameworks or EC's? By the book, that guideline (in a game where all rules should be considered guidelines, the section that includes this is specifically pointed out to be a guideline) only applies to EC's to the best of my knowledge. So you can put Aid in a Multipower or Variable Pool.

Which is actually wonky, since they are harder to balance in those constructs than they are in an EC.