Poll, the spd chart

[Vorsch]

This poll is to see out of Herodom assembled what they think of the Spd chart, its been the centre of the combat rules since day one, i personally think it is overly complicated and non genre for a Supers game (panel level combat).

Basically I think its offputting for new players, many of whom will have come from other games where combat is split into more familiar combat rounds. It also demostrates inconsistancies such as move thru/by damage based of inches rather than velocity which is about as broken as you can get.

[Trebuchet]

In my 20+ years of Champions/Hero gaming I've always treated phases as comic frames anyway. If you just regard phases as a non-determinate (but short) length of time instead of exactly 1000 milliseconds it makes a lot more sense and preserves the comic-book feel.

IMO the 12 Phase system is imperfect; but still works just fine. I've yet to see a better way to simulate different speed characters.

[McCoy]

Why no multiple choice? Speed chart is the best thing since sliced bread, Champions combat wouldnt be the same without it, and it Helps keep combat focused.

[Trebuchet]

Why no multiple choice? Speed chart is the best thing since sliced bread, Champions combat wouldnt be the same without it, and it Helps keep combat focused.

I was wondering the exact same thing.

[DocMan]

You wouldn't compain about Hero's speed chart if you'd ever experienced Synabarr's speed chart.

Doc

[lemming]

You wouldn't compain about Hero's speed chart if you'd ever experienced Synabarr's speed chart.

Gah! Flashback pain!

I'll third McCoy's opinion.

[proditor]

I can see it being a bit off-putting at first glance, but I was "lucky" enough to have a bunch of guys who came from V&V and the terrifying init system they had. I say terrifying simply because we had one guy who had Heightened Agility B x3, final dex 85, and Heightened Speed. He generally started his init at 120 or so and then it was -15 per additional action. Now THAT was off-putting. Champions and the speed chart seemed like a breath of fresh air after that.

[Hugh Neilson]

I always found the Speed Chart one of the best and most innovative things about the system. I've never had a player have any problems coping with the action sequence.

[Hugh Neilson]

A word on that last choice: it would be easy if everyone was Speed 6. COunt DEX down 6 times, then everyone gets a recovery!

[etherio]

I used to really like the Speed Chart. It does reflect well people with different reaction times, and other games' initiative systems pretty much boil down to deciding who goes first each "round," rather than who gets to act. (By the way, I actually liked the V&V initiative system, but I agree that examples llike the one you gave would break it totally.)

One thing that the Speed Chart lacks, though, is random chance, and that is where I think it fails to deliver. One fun thing about "rolling initiative" is the fun of rolling...the troll's about to swing...will you get a chance to run him through before he gets you or not?

Additionally, the static nature of combat order makes battle plod along...players tend to lose interest sometimes when they know exactly when they next get to act...who's going to get to deliver the coup de grace on that troll.

Plus, the fact that phases are so structured encourages too much metagaming in maneuver planning. I have SPD 4...they only have 3...OK, dodge, dodge, attack on segment 9, and dodge. Also, the old "haymaker/sweep/move-through now because I get another phase before they act" type of strategy.

Our group has been using a system for a while that works well for us. Each segment, everybody rolls a 12-sided die. If your roll is equal to your SPD or less, you get a phase. If you roll a 12, you get a Post-Segment-12 recovery, and anything related to you that depends on turns is activated.

With this sytem, the proportional number of phases per turn is preserved, and it adds a little excitement and unpredictability to combat. It also saves the GM from tracking segments and eliminates "wait a minute it's segment 7, not 8, syndrome." We've also, for some reason, seen more block maneuvers and picturesque teamwork in our combats.

[Blue]

I've never even considered the SPD chart might be a problem to anyone. Always seemed pretty rudimentary. I've had it memorized since I was a teen, which makes it easier.

[etherio]

I've never even considered the SPD chart might be a problem to anyone. Always seemed pretty rudimentary. I've had it memorized since I was a teen, which makes it easier.

I don't think that many of us, even those who don't particularly care for the SPD chart, find it too complicated. (I've had it memorized forever, as well.) I just think it's sort of plodding and too structured.

[Snarf]

Our group has been using a system for a while that works well for us. Each segment, everybody rolls a 12-sided die. If your roll is equal to your SPD or less, you get a phase. If you roll a 12, you get a Post-Segment-12 recovery, and anything related to you that depends on turns is activated.

I like it! That rule or something like it would be an interesting option to put in 5'th Edition Revised or a Digital Hero article.

[caris]

Plus, the fact that phases are so structured encourages too much metagaming in maneuver planning. I have SPD 4...they only have 3...OK, dodge, dodge, attack on segment 9, and dodge. Also, the old "haymaker/sweep/move-through now because I get another phase before they act" type of strategy.

This is really highly a matter of taste and to a degree perception, and what you expect/want from combat. Before going to Hero System, I hated combat. In almost every other game system I had played, combat always seemed too long and too boring. I actively avoided heavy combat games. My friends were shocked when I started asking to join campaigns that had a combat focus, if they were in Hero System. The reason why was simple, that “metagaming in maneuver planning” you apparently dislike. To this day people don’t understand how I can in general hate so called simple and fast combat systems like Storyteller and love the complex Hero System, if I dislike combat and often consider it a distraction from the real game.

Ok, let me state here that I think you are wrong, or that what you want out of the game is incorrect. I just am trying to explain my different POV.

The problem I had in all the other game systems that I had tried before was that I didn’t really feel like I could make a meaningful decisions to impact the results of the combat. I felt like the dice ruled everything. There was no real reason to pay attention or plan strategy, because there were too many variables that I couldn’t predict.

OK, I realize that in real combat that there are hundreds of variables that you can’t predict. Even so, part of being a trained combatant is being able to recognize those variables that you can predict, taking actions to minimize the impact of unpredictable variables, and knowing how to adapt to those variables when they appear. Training for combat is learning to make certain types of meaningful decisions reflexively. The problem is that so much of that got rolled up into abstractions for me, that I saw no point in paying attention to combat. I was the kind of gamer who during combat would read a book until there turn, than pick a target and roll dice as often as need be.

That changed with Hero, and one of the biggest changes was that there was suddenly a variable that I could predict, and build strategies around. So for me those metagame decisions were a good thing. They made what was a boring and perfunctory aspect of the game for me into something entertaining and exciting.

[Dust Raven]

I don't think that many of us, even those who don't particularly care for the SPD chart, find it too complicated. (I've had it memorized forever, as well.) I just think it's sort of plodding and too structured.

I like the SPD chart. I don't LOVE it, but it's the best iniative system I've seen.

As for plodding around and Phases being too predictable, try holding an action once in a while. I had my entire group thinking that one particular character was SPD 8 just because he kept making half moves and holding to react to a threat (he was really SPD 4). You should have seen there faces when I said he was taking an action in Segment 7 after moving in Segments 5 and 6!