Invulnerability headaches.

[Rerednaw]

I've noticed that the damage reduction charts thread has become a invulnerability thread.

Since I want to handle the two separately I'll ask here. (Yes I know this has been brought up ad naseum).

I've considered the limited form of Desolidification and also high damage reduction (75%) only versus a given SFX, but I'd really rather see a different power altogether.

My thoughts:

The standard superhero campaign is 350 points. A character who wishes to be invulnerable should probably be made to spend most if not all on this power.

Invulnerability *STOP* Base cost 120 points for one type (PD, ED, or Special). The special categories are mental, adjustment powers, and so forth.

Advise strongly that this power be taken with a mandatory limitation (must be against a particular special effect). (-1/4 to -2, depending on how frequent the attack form is).

Other limitations: Not resistant -1/2. Not versus AP attacks -1/4. Not versus Penetrating attacks -1/4. Not versus indirect attacks (guy with invulnerable outer skin gets hit with a blast that originates say inside his mouth) -1/4. Likewise not if successful Find Weakness made -1/4.

Suggestions/changes to resolve this mess (other than not allowing it in the first place?)

Cheers.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think it looks fine. I'd suggest defining it as a Special Power that's Persistent and doesn't cost END. Making it a Special Power will make it harder for jokers to stick it in a Multipower.

[Zaratustra]

Sounds very good, but why a different power?

[Rerednaw]

Originally posted by Zaratustra
Sounds very good, but why a different power?

Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system. Using desolidification, then any attack with affects desolid will affect that form, which really makes no sense.

There isn't an official damage reduction 100% power as of yet either.

I also meant to include it was special power that costs no END, so it can't go into a framework. Thanks for pointing that out, Derek.

And of course, it should go without saying that no character should be invulnerable to everything, there should always be a weakness.

Just my thoughts on the matter anyway.

Cheers.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Rerednaw
Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system.

I hope I don't come across as offensive, but----
This is a problem, how?

IMO, this search for the holy grail of invulnerability is against the "feel" of the Hero System. It "feels" like D&D, with its Magic Missile that always hits, and its Shield that always blocks, and the ThisSpell that always xyz and the ThatSpell that always ____ and so on ad nauseum.

Hero System, OTOH, is a coherent SYSTEM, with balance built in. Which means that, while there's no limit (other than AP caps and other GM decisions) to how powerful any Defensive Power can be, you have to pay for each increment.

Frankly, I consider attempts to violate that "feel", by looking for any "always works" power, to be an attempt to break the System.

But, that's just my opinion. I couldn't stand around and not speak up in defense of my favorite gaming System any longer.

--
A user will find any interface design intuitive...with enough practice.

[BlackCobra]

Well, ok, I don't know how beaten to death this topic is, but really, if you have high enough Damage Reduction AND enough armor (the key), you pretty much ARE invulnerable. (Or as near enough as makes no never-mind.)

I have seen this in action. A character had 50/50 hardened armor and 75% damage reduction (physical and energy). He regularly ignored attacks that any other team members had problems with. This doesn't mean he was completely invulnerable --- but it took a really Cosmic level effect to shake him. Now -- admittedly this was a 500-pt space campaign; essentially a Justic League level campaign. But if this were designed to simulate invulnerability to a particular type of thing (e.g. fire), the limitations would make it much more reasonable.

Remember, Superman required really massive attacks to hit him before he even noticed the damage. (Not including the one from the animated television series, who apparently doesn't get any sun at all.)

Personally, I'm resistant to introducing new powers to Hero, for the very reasons mentioned elsewhere.

Does that help the discussion at all?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by BasilDrag
I hope I don't come across as offensive, but----
This is a problem, how?

IMO, this search for the holy grail of invulnerability is against the "feel" of the Hero System. It "feels" like D&D, with its Magic Missile that always hits, and its Shield that always blocks, and the ThisSpell that always xyz and the ThatSpell that always ____ and so on ad nauseum.

Hero System, OTOH, is a coherent SYSTEM, with balance built in. Which means that, while there's no limit (other than AP caps and other GM decisions) to how powerful any Defensive Power can be, you have to pay for each increment.

Frankly, I consider attempts to violate that "feel", by looking for any "always works" power, to be an attempt to break the System.

But, that's just my opinion. I couldn't stand around and not speak up in defense of my favorite gaming System any longer.

--
A user will find any interface design intuitive...with enough practice.

I sort of hesitate to weigh in as this topic is pretty old, but (and by the way the original post in the topic looked okay to me) the other thing to consider is that HERO is supposed to in part simulate high-powered and low-powered level heroic drama; high-powered sometimes includes invulnerabilities. Many people like to simulate that without resorting to buying high defenses because high defenses aren't enough when it comes to penetrating attacks and other "tricks". I don't think it's unreasonable, though of course I respect that many others don't like the idea.

[Tom McCarthy]

There's lots of little things about the system I'd consider changing. Being invulnerable to a single SFX is a power I would include, but I'd do it in a fairly straightforward way.

I'd have to juggle the possibilities but they'd be something like:
- 100% resistant DR only vs. a single SFX for 60 points
- Desolidification, only to protect against attacks with a single SFX, and clarify that i) the attacks do not pass through the character, simply do not affect him, ii) this power does not necessitate buying Affects Physical World, and iii) Affects Desolid does not make an attack of that SFX effective against the character.

Other things I'd think about changing:
- Make the 'barrier penetration' aspect of Desolidification separate from the damage avoidance aspect of Desolidification
- I'd have to think long and hard about whether or not Spirit or Possession powers are needed
- I'd want to review the structure of mental powers. The effectiveness of a high EGO as a defence against Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Scan and Telepathy is very impressive, while that high EGO does very little against Ego Attack
- I'd look at whether or not players really need to be prevented from having automaton powers

[Monolith]

Invulnerability has always seemed to be an "issue" with many players. It has never really bothered me at all, because in comic books there is no such thing as invulnerability. Superman bounces punches, until someone strong enough comes along, then he gets hurt. Human Torch bounces fire attacks until Firelord comes along with his "cosmically enhanced" fire and zaps him, ect. Ultimately I think Invulnerability is best understood as how they did it in the old Marvel Superheroes game: It is a number that defends against damage, and if you exceed that number you can be damaged by the attack.

There are many different ways to handle invulnerability. For me the simplest way is to just determine the average damage of your campaing and base the number from there. So if 14d6 attacks are the norm the 50 DEF should cover it in most cases. So someone could buy: +30 Hardened Armor, X damage Only: -1/2; Naked Avantage: Hardend on PD or ED (up to 20 points), X damage Only: -1/2. For 40 point the character has 50 Hardened DEF against a specific type of attack. That bounces 14d6 and the character takes minimal damage from attacks over that. Seems fairly simple to me.

[TheEmerged]

I'm from the "lack of invulnerability in HERO is not a flaw" school of thought myself. Any time you start throwing absolutes around you start running into conflicts & trouble.

Having said that, I think I know why some people seem obsessed with finding it: because they don't like the idea of taking STUN, somehow feeling that this means they were hurt. STUN can add up, mind, but it's amazing what having a sufficient REC score can do for you...

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by zornwil
I sort of hesitate to weigh in as this topic is pretty old, but (and by the way the original post in the topic looked okay to me) the other thing to consider is that HERO is supposed to in part simulate high-powered and low-powered level heroic drama; high-powered sometimes includes invulnerabilities. Many people like to simulate that without resorting to buying high defenses because high defenses aren't enough when it comes to penetrating attacks and other "tricks". I don't think it's unreasonable, though of course I respect that many others don't like the idea.

FIrst, (as has been pointed out), for most comic-book and other high-powered characters, "Invulnerable" has repeatedly turned out to mean "Ain't been hit YET."

Second, from a game balance perspective, it's a poor idea. Viz. D&D's MagicMissile/ShieldSpell/Wossname/BlahBlah/YaddaYadda escalation. A true invulnerability, no matter to how limited a SFX, invites an invulnerability-buster, then a trump to it, and so on and so forth.

I think it wisest to control the problem by not starting down that road in the first place.

--
"College isn't the place to go for ideas." -- Helen Keller

[pawsplay]

Old Marvel Super-Heroes placed Captain America's shield at Class 3000 hardness.

Which means there are things that can destroy it... Death and Eternity both have Class 5000 ability.

[Ndreare]

One thing I have found works in my games is a special rules set for Defenses like the special rules set for regeneration in the Healing power.

I allow players to by the defense limited to one FX then hardened (only once is needed) after that I make the power immune to all defense ignoring powers except find weakness. So Vibro buys Immune to Vibration +30 rPD/rED +1/4 hardened only vs. Vibration -1 for 45 points, then "Quake" shoots him with 8D6 AVLD "lack of weakness" "Rictor Blast" or his 5D6 Penetrating *5 +2 1/2 "Ultra Vib Shot" I still allow his Invulnerability to apply.

(I believe allot of it is common sense when a character buys must limited defense powers they are supposed to define a "Common Defense or Set of Defenses that can resist the attack" and this one is added to whatever list they made for free. As for the ones that don'e that is nice.)

P.S.: Please note that the same character would still take some stun or maybe even body from an attack of say 18D6 EB +1/2 Explosion Vibro Quake as the amount rolled could exceed his defenses protection.

[jtelson]

I don't see any issue with an Invulnerability power. Even if true invulnerability is rare to non-existant in comics. It is not uncommon at all in other genres and any system that claims to be a toolkit for genre simulation should include the option for absolutes. All absolutes abilities should of course be labeled STOP and should only be allowed where appropriate.
I think it speaks volumes for the Hero System that it is so easy to create an Invulnerability power and insert it.

[JmOz]

I'll tell you all how to make a truly invulnerable character, it will be expensive:

Healing/Regeneration/from Death/Regrow limbs, with enough to regen x2 Body characteristic (okay now the worse case senario is you die and are resurected)

Enough REC to heal all your stun in one recovery

x2 Speed (only to take recoveries), Linked to Desolification

So how does this monstocity work?

Character is hit by attack, he will recover with the F/X of it did not hurt me