He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

[Maccabe]

***Base character of 100 pts+ 150 pts in disadvantages = 250 pts***
This used to be the basic starting hero in Champions ( 1-4) but now it would be a version of LOW POWERED (Hero 5) . I have heard the term "WHIMP" used so many times with regard to characters of that "power" level [players emphasis] .
First of all this is a role-playing game, not a power game (powergamers??)
Secondly, why is a character considered a "whimp" if he only has; a
SPD of 4, PD/ED 15 (fully resistant), 8d6 Energy Blast???? WHY???
Isn't it easier to add points later on in the game, beyond just regular exp pts, then take points away ?? Isn't it more fun to have to worry when captured and deathtrapped , then swallow a 20d6 RKA and just burp???

[Trebuchet]

I'm unclear as to exactly what point you are trying to make? Yes, 250 points is a low end super in 5th Edition. But our current 5th Edition standard (350 point) team has two SPD 4 characters and a character with only 12 PD & ED. In fact the 4th Edition version of my current character was tougher in a fight than she is now with over 140 more points. That version was just a pure combat character; the newer version is a lot more versatile and has useful non-combat skills. So the more important thing is how one spends those Character Points.

[JJR]

It seems you are jumping between 2 different extremes. There is a lot of room between and 8d6 eb and a 20d6 rka. 250 point characters are ok but many people get bored always starting a game as a new mutant and working up. Sometimes you want to start as an x-man, or even an avenger. Going beyond a 250 point start allows that. I would also say if your game is made up of 4 speed, 15 defense, 8d6 eb heroes and villains then you have already created an internal power balance, it is just not the balance of the current champions world.

[Bengal]

Sometimes, playing the wimpiest character on the team in a combat situation is fun, because you get to use your brain! Plus, your GM probably won't be building bad guys with your powers in mind, since someone else on the team can do most of what you can do, only better. That's why it's good to sneak in a couple of interesting cost-effective "utility-belt" powers, such as entangles or images. And don't forget talents- some talents outstrip their point cost better than some powers can, even with appropriate adders, advantages and limitations. Lightning Reflexes, Danger Sense, and Universal Translator will make your "wimp" an important character in a number of situations in and out of combat.

[Doug McCrae]

Secondly, why is a character considered a "whimp" if he only has; a SPD of 4, PD/ED 15 (fully resistant), 8d6 Energy Blast???? WHY???

Cause he is a wimp, that's why. My character, Captain Awesome, would kick his scrawny ass.

[Vorsch]

Because Hero keeps shifting the bar as to what is powerful, even 4th ed mentalists were wandering around with dex 23 con 23 spd 5 def 20+, and they were physical described as normal/average. Stat inflation is now at the "terminally stupid level", and i dont expect Galactic champions is going to help either.

And im not even going to mention Dr D. Who by the way i used to like when he was 500pts.

on the other hand a 250pt character with 20DC damage/def 50 caps will wipe the floor with a 350pt 60pt character.

I like a limited power to actually be more powerful than a unlimited one, not just cost less so you can spend the points on doing more stuff . ie i like 60rc not ap limits ( within moderation )

[JJR]

Because Hero keeps shifting the bar as to what is powerful, even 4th ed mentalists were wandering around with dex 23 con 23 spd 5 def 20+, and they were physical described as normal/average. Stat inflation is now at the "terminally stupid level", and i dont expect Galactic champions is going to help either.

And im not even going to mention Dr D. Who by the way i used to like when he was 500pts.

There is a lot less stat inflation in 5th than there was in 4th. You stated a perfect example of that yourself. Most of the mentalists in 5th have 20 or less dexterity stats. From what I see most of the villains in conquers, killers & crooks have less than 23 dexterity stats.

With Dr. D you can always just use Holocaust, who is very much like the 4th Dr. D. I do not think Dr. D is a good example to use for a stat inflation argument though. Dr. D is designed to be cosmic in scope in 5th.

[Fenixcrest]

Well, for one thing: if you're playing with "low" points like that, the game pretty much has to be street level. You have to retool the genre, if you're even using a super-hero genre.

I GM for a 250 point Supers game, but I use a kind of anime genre. Have any of you seen Tenjou Tenge? It's like that, but with magic and demons thrown in for fun. And it's in the future. Because I can.

At that point, it's basically a street-level game with a bunch of very (relatively to normals) powerful teenagers, fighting rival gangs and avoiding villains who want to exploit their powers for evil. It's quite fun, really.

[Trebuchet]

on the other hand a 250pt character with 20DC damage/def 50 caps will wipe the floor with a 350pt 60pt character.

Dude, take some valium or something and calm down.

The only place I've ever seen 20DC/50 ED caps were in high-powered (450+ point) games. I can't imagine most GMs would let a player character with that kind of attack into their standard (350 point) Champions campaign. And how is stating the obvious ("a 250pt character with 20DC damage/def 50 caps will wipe the floor with a 350pt 60pt character." Well, duh.) an "on the other hand"? On the other hand from what?

Fifth Edition didn't introduce higher Standard point values so the all supers could ratchet up their attacks and defenses by 60-odd points; they increased the extra 100 points so players could build better rounded and more interesting characters. Typical opponents in 5th Edition are not as tough in combat as their 4th Edition counterparts. (Doctor Destroyer is a notable, and particularly dull, exception.) If you're just running into combat machines with 20d6 attacks and no personality or skills beyond pounding opponents into red goo, then no wonder you're a bit bent out of shape.

[Doug McCrae]

The first Champions campaign I ran (250 pts) had a character with a 27d6 attack and defences of something like 60/60 IIRC. Hey what can I say - I was a bad *bad* GM.

[Magmarock]

I've noticed, in our group when we started creating 350 points PCs (as compared to the 275-300 points PCs), that we have kept close to the same damage/SPD/defense ranges with the "extra' points going toward extra skills/perks/talents and such to round out the characters.

IMO, the PCs work better out of combat now, too. Now if only the players would use those skills...

Mags

[Trebuchet]

I've noticed, in our group when we started creating 350 points PCs (as compared to the 275-300 points PCs), that we have kept close to the same damage/SPD/defense ranges with the "extra' points going toward extra skills/perks/talents and such to round out the characters.

IMO, the PCs work better out of combat now, too. Now if only the players would use those skills...

That's exactly what happened in our campaign whe we ratcheted up from 250 to 350 points between 4th and 5th editions. With a single exception (which was requested by the GMs) nobody's character got bigger attacks or higher defenses. What we got was more versatility, more Skills and more Perks and non-combat Talents. And events have proven that versatility is it's own kind of strength.

As to making players use their characters' Skills, the best way to do that is for the GM to provide ways during each adventure for different Skills to be important. Like Powers, hardly anybody is going to spend points on Skills that are never useful. Why buy SS: Quantum Physics for 3 points if it never comes to any use? In our game the team's two scientist types probably have 10 or 11 different Sciences between them (plus some overlap). Those sciences have saved our bacon more than once. Heck, in a recent adventure my superheroine even found a way to make Riding useful, since the team had to get to the remote Mongolian site on horseback.

[Diashan]

I've got to agree with Magmarock. As I've been upgrading my 4th charaters the vast majority of my changes have been in adding skills/talents/perks not raising power level. If anything my average attack and defense levels have come down just slightly to make more well rounded characters. I swear I feel the point crunch worse at 350 than I ever did at 250.





Diashan

[JmOz]

The other thing I noticed with the extra 100 points is that it went to a lot of utility powers or odd ball attacks in frameworks

[Trebuchet]

The other thing I noticed with the extra 100 points is that it went to a lot of utility powers or odd ball attacks in frameworks

Sure, but that's still increasing versatility rather than simply ramping up DCs. In some cases it allows a player to finally afford a logical addition to their powers they couldn't afford with only 250 points. It can also permit characters to buy off or reduce certain Limitations on their powers.