The Harbinger of Justice Thread

[Metaphysician]

Because it'll be discussed, might as well be here.

What do you think should be done with him in the current edition?? Kept, downpowered, eliminated, boosted, in DC, in Hudson City, in Predators, what??

Me, I'd say "keep him roughly the same power level but kick him to Hudson City or Predators," so long as he isn't made the centerfigure of the setting or anything. I like examples of how far you can push a given system or genre, even if I probably would never use him.

[Steve Long]

Well, I can tell you what I'm going to do, if that helps.

He'll show up in Hudson City: The Urban Abyss, though he does have a fairly strong connection to the sample PCs in DC itself. He'll be about the same, but reconfigured for the pure "costumed vigilantes" subgenre that's at the heart of the DC genre. There's no need for Champions-level weapons-teleportation technology since this isn't a genre with overt superpowers for the most part; he'll acquire his equipment like everyone else (build, buy, and so on). By removing the superhumans from the equation, I can create him more like I would have in the first place, if he'd been created for a DC campaign from the get-go.

He'll be on the cover of DC itself. Storn and I came up with what I think is a truly great cover concept last GenCon, and we've recently updated that discussion so he can get to work on it. I absolutely can't wait to see it.

[Peregrine]

Steve,

Thanks for not giving in to the 'low power' crowd whose rallying cry seems to be "No Harbinger of Justice!" I'm glad to see that DC is going to cover the full spectrum of play and not just be a 'real-world genre' book.

[TheQuestionMan]

Greetings HEROdom, I for one am glad to see the Blue Cresent Moon killer of antiquity . I found him an excellent foil for many a Dark Champions:HEROes of Vengence Campaigns. While every GM in our campaigns invariably removed the "Teleporting Weapons" and simply turned him into a Master Marksman and Master Spy. One of the players even had him in one of his Alternate IDs as a Contact. I always told my players that he wasn't exactly as written in the DC:HoV write-up. Made there lives interesting occassionally and even acted as a stop gap measure for PC's stepping over the edge from Vigiliante to Mass Murderer. Then the Hunter became the Hunted.

Let Justice be done.

QM.

[Spence]

He'll be about the same, but reconfigured for the pure "costumed vigilantes" subgenre that's at the heart of the DC genre. There's no need for Champions-level weapons-teleportation technology since this isn't a genre with overt superpowers for the most part; he'll acquire his equipment like everyone else (build, buy, and so on). By removing the superhumans from the equation, I can create him more like I would have in the first place, if he'd been created for a DC campaign from the get-go.

Steve,

You just laid to rest some major concerns that I had been developing about DC. From many of the threads I was getting the feeling DC was leaning toward being more of a straight Danger International/Espionage/Top Secret genre instead of "Dark Champions". The costumed vigilante is my favorite genre, be it modern (DC) or pulp based (JI).

Spence

[Beetle]

Steve,

Thanks for not giving in to the 'low power' crowd whose rallying cry seems to be "No Harbinger of Justice!" I'm glad to see that DC is going to cover the full spectrum of play and not just be a 'real-world genre' book.

I made some comments along those lines (which I suspect annoyed Steve) in an old thread. But it wasn't so much the point total that threw me with Harbinger, but the fact that after many pages of "realistic" and "street-level" talk we got a flagship character who teleported guns to his hands from his own personal pocket dimension. It was a jarring leap from the established tone. Sounds like he'll fit the remainder of the material much better.

Of course, if the changes lead to fifty "The Harbinger of Justice is/is not a normal" threads, we'll all be sorry...

[Southern Cross]

True...

[Rachel]

I don't know if this is an appropriate question or not, but there's no harm in asking, right?

Any chance of seeing an early write up of him? I'm thinking it might give me some ideas for my Nemesis character. We're ordering DC through Kara's comic shop because we get a killer discount from them, but I'd like to have Nemesis done before then.

[Vondy]

The Harbinger of Rachel!

[Steve Long]

The Harbinger of Rachel would have to switch from guns to a baseball bat, I suppose.

Rachel -- I'll see what I can do. It may take me a while, though, since right now I've got to focus on getting DC done ASAP so we can have everything ready in time for GenCon. Once I get all that written down, I'll have a better idea re: what changes (if any) I want to make to him for publication.

[Lurker]

Steve,

You just laid to rest some major concerns that I had been developing about DC. From many of the threads I was getting the feeling DC was leaning toward being more of a straight Danger International/Espionage/Top Secret genre instead of "Dark Champions". The costumed vigilante is my favorite genre, be it modern (DC) or pulp based (JI).

Spence

I, on the other hand, must say that I'm more than a little disappointed about this. From other threads I had understood that DC would have the espionage/special ops/police genre at its core and that costumed vigilantes would be - if at all present - more or less handled in a couple of sidebars.
If DC should be essentially a street-level superhero book than I doubt that we even need it - superhero campaigns of varying power levels are adequately handled in the Champions books. Realistic contemporary campaings on the other hand are still left out of most HERO products; they should be handled similarly to Fantasy or Science Fiction (in the FANTASY HERO and STAR HERO books respectively).
If DC is at its heart, a superhero sourcebook, then it would explain why the cover would feature the Harbinger. If on the other hand (and I still haven't given up hope about this), DC is centered more towards non-superhero campaigns, I think it would be a grave error to feature a superhero-ish cover because it would send out the wrong message to potential buyers.
If it is true what I'm suspecting here I find it very sad that HERO once more proves to be not the uniersal rpg it claims to be but still very much a superhero game with a couple of campaign options...

[Vondy]

The Harbinger of Rachel would have to switch from guns to a baseball bat, I suppose.

Rachel -- I'll see what I can do. It may take me a while, though, since right now I've got to focus on getting DC done ASAP so we can have everything ready in time for GenCon. Once I get all that written down, I'll have a better idea re: what changes (if any) I want to make to him for publication.

Maybe just add WF: Louiville Slugger (?)

[steriaca]

Of course, if the changes lead to fifty "The Harbinger of Justice is/is not a normal" threads, we'll all be sorry...

Acualy, in the original DC, he was NOT a typical example of a Dark Champions vigalantie. I mean, he WAS designed to fit into a world where people shot energy beams from there eyes. Of course, he repersented a part of the world where veary few people could do that, let alone wanted to...

What I want to know, thoe, is 'can I fit Dark Champions into the Champions seating without to much of a problem'. I mean, if Marvel can have The Punisher, Dairdevil, Spider-Man, and The Human Torch, why can't the Champions universe? (I'm shure Steve WILL give us SOME guidelines for crosovers...somewhere (if not in DC, then in Hudson City)).

[Talon]

To me the Harbinger fit into the Elminster-role...a grossly powerful NPC who is so powerful that he becomes a walking plot device unless used with tremendous care. (I remember statting up a Harbinger vs. Mechanon fight, and the odds were at least even.) He seemed to violate the "don't overshadow the PCs with NPCs" campaign tenet pretty badly.

Anyway, I think that the 5th Edition universe has a better handle on dealing with high and low point NPCs of varying moral outlooks, so hopefully he'll come out much better in the new edition.

[Jarekk]

Overshadow?

I always looked at him as... Well, besides something fun to play in a "good-grief they're tough" champions setting...

I saw him as a (to borrow a video game term) "sub-boss." He's taking down bad guys--HIS way--and the PC's need to stop him because... uh... The lawyers will go out of business!

Okay, seriously--I always liked him... Just because he's THERE doesn't mean you can't use the book for whatever, though. Heck, him being on the cover isn't even a definite statement to the game type. He was on the last DC cover, and the stuff inside was about hero-level campaigns mostly. (ooh--a revamp of boogyman? come to think of it, I never have used that...)

Sorry, got sidetracked. Point is, he's just a guy. You decide what parts of the book you use, and DOJ has done a dang good job of making every book so far very universal... I have no doubt that DC will be just as useful.

(%)