Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

[CrosshairCollie]

I was just kind of wondering where a 'street-level supers' game would be considered in the 'spectrum' of HERO gaming. For my main character to use for an example, I'll use Spider-Man.

Now, admittedly, Spider-Man hops around from cosmic to city-level quite a bit, but most of the time, he's strictly New York material and the threats he takes on aren't world-beating affairs (I suppose Cloak and Dagger enter at this level, too). So, as far as 'plot-level' goes, he seems Dark Champions.

However, two things seem to separate him from the Dark Champions mold:
1. Super-powers. He and a lot of his opposition have them, though they're not 'cosmic' level stuff (Spidey lifts VWs; the Hulk lifts mountains. Dagger's light-blasts stun people, Iron Man's repulsors crush titanium). We could maybe add Power Man and Iron Fist in there, too ... and Daredevil, of course.

2. The lack of killing. Spidey and Cloak and Dagger (last I knew, at least ... stuff changes) don't kill people, which kind of takes some of the 'Dark' out of it (the 4E Dark Champs seemed to lean heavily towards Punisher-style gaming of skilled-normals-with-hardware and fairly high body-counts).

Will this kind of 'street-level' game be considered Dark Champions, or just a low-powered Regular Champions game? I know it's kind of a stupid, poorly-phrased question ...

[Steve Long]

No, that's a perfectly valid question, and phrased with one of the very examples I use in the book -- Spider-Man (though I primarily refer to his very early career).

What you're describing is low-level Champions, not Dark Champions. It's what I discuss in the section of DC that talks about mixing genres -- in this case, DC and Champions. There are three or four ways to mix the two, and one of them is "street-level superheroes": characters like the very early Spider-Man and Daredevil who have superhuman abilities, but use them mostly (if not exclusively) to fight street crime and similarly low-powered superhuman criminals.

Depending on how you characterize things and set up your game, this might also qualify as the "Dark Champions: The Animated Series" subgenre of Dark Champions, though the prevalence of superpowers tends to weigh against that. DC:TAS characters tend not to be superpowered, though their enemies sometimes have weird powers or slightly fantastical technology.

Now, obviously, despite all of this, obviously a lot of what you'll find in Dark Champions is readily applicable to, and useful in, a low-level Champions campaign. For example, modern-day guns and gear writeups are perfectly acceptable for just about any Champions game, regardless of how powerful the superhumans are. In the midst of the pointless (and often misinformed) quibbling about the title and contents of the book, I think that particular -- and very important -- fact has often been overlooked.

[Metaphysician]

My inclination would be that Spider-man, at least, would be Champions. Not so much for the powers as the fact that he's high profile.

[Worldmaker]

What you're describing is low-level Champions, not Dark Champions.

So.... Daredevil is standard Champions, but the Punisher would be Dark Champions?

[Steve Long]

Daredevil is standard Champions, but the Punisher would be Dark Champions?

That'd be how I'd see it, yes. I also see Batman as DC not C. Minds reasonable and unreasonable are of course free to differ.

I could certainly see someone running a game where all the characters are low-level superhumans like Daredevil, with powers that are generally "personal" and non-flashy, and taking as much (if not more) inspiration and resource material from Dark Champions as from Champions. As long as people have fun with their games, I don't care what they call 'em or how they create 'em. I just have to establish some sort of dividing line for purposes of organizing the various product lines.

[Metaphysician]

I'd actually peg most Daredevil portrayals as more like DC than C.

[JmOz]

The Marvel Knights line is how I look at Dark Champions, at least in 4th edition. This would include some Spiderman, Daredevil, punisher, Luke Cage. I would also include the Batlines from DC (Batman, Nightwing, Birds of Prey, etc)

Now this new book is kind of up in the air as from the sounds of it it will be more towards a modern game than anything to do with super heroes (think Leathal Weapon movies, some comics like punisher, etc), this is where the debate on the name comes from as the 4th edition book was definatly about masks (Not neseasarily supers...)

[Sketchpad]

I agree to some extent with Jm ... though I think it's also dependent on who the comic's creative team is I think, on some level, even the Ultimates could be seen in a DC lens ... though I'd clearly make them Champions

To an odd extent ... I'd almost see USA's The Dead Zone as DC also

[Edsel]

Where would Captian America fall on the Champions/Dark Champions scale?

It has always been said that he is "peak human" by Marvel. Meaning that he has no super-human powers, he is simply peak human as far as his physical abilities are concerned (DEX, STR, CON, etc.). He is smart but not a exceptionally so. He is a extremely skilled hand-to-hand combatant but this is just a factor of constant training and lots of experience. Thus far he sounds like a Dark Champions character.

However, that shield of his is a more of a Champions gadget and his aging has been halted, or at least greatly slowed by the super soildier serum.

[JmOz]

Agan it depends on what cap you are talking about.

The Shield is not an issue, while it has some nice abilities, they are not that exceptional to be a super power (Though some of his skills WITH the shield should qualify)

Also his aging has not been halted, it was stoped for about 5 decades while he was in a ice cube

[Enforcer84]

And Batman acting with the Justice League is deffinately not DC.

[bubba smith]

what catagory would IRON FIST fall into?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Power Man and Iron Fist would generally be DC; Captain America, full-on Champions. Batman varies depending on the comic, but if you take away the JLA stuff, he's a DC sort of guy, but he really does walk the line; far too many of his recurring villains are people who are powered up in one way or another; Ivy and Croc come to mind.

Look at it this way: little/no innate power, mostly normal criminals, some gadgets, 'peak human': DC. Otherwise, Champions. Batman really walks the line, so you pays your money and takes your chances.

Also, in general, you have to look not just at 'what they are', but what they DO. Captain America doesn't break up gangs, throw himself into the middle of a Mob shipment, or track down a serial killer. Iron Fist doesn't fight HYDRA, go to the Savage Land, or involve himself with SHIELD. (Well, any more than he absolutely has to.) DC isn't just about what powers (or lack thereof) you have, it's about what 'level' of involvement with the 'super' world you have. Again, Spider-Man may break up muggings and stop bank robberies, but he's more frequently involved with shutting down the Rhino, or the Green Goblin, or some other powersuit/crazyman/whatever. Ergo, Champions.

[bubba smith]

thanks this is an interesting topic

[Vann the Red]

I delineate between the two somewhat differently. To me, if the character is principally concerned with 'regular' crime, it's DC. That is to say, if the hero is motivated to improve the lives of the average Joe rather than dealing with super-villains. My other measuring stick would be the 'grittiness' of the setting. Power level or costuming of the villains has little to do with it.

So, to review some of the characters mentioned, I'd say DC characters are Power Man, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Batman (JLA aside), Spidey, Cloak & Dagger. Spidey and Batman definitely cross the lines at times, though. Captain America was even DC at times when I first started reading it as he had an established neighborhood in New York and many of the stories revolved around helping his neighbors.

Just my $0.02,

VtR