Many disadvantages that NPCs aren't disadvantages or are they? <LONG POST>

[Rerednaw]

I was flipping through some of the character examples in the supplement Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks. I've noticed a recurring theme.

Many villains have overconfidence, vengeful, some kind of prone to violence psychological, enraged, megalomania and so forth.

If you had the kind of offensive/defensive power array that some of the non player characters possess you would be overconfident as well, since there isn't anything (or very few) things in the campaign universe that could match you.

Likewise for the other psych traits, it's difficult for a typical party to take advantage of (1000 pt+ NPC) overconfidence when they don't possess anything that could handle him.

Whereas for a player character (even a superhero) built on a great deal less, being overconfident IS a disadvantage.

I'm not talking about 'powering down' certain write ups. In previous versions of Champions, these 'Enemies' are mostly written for the default campaign. I'm assuming that these are also (I don't have the book in front of me so I cannot verify at the moment).

Many of the character write ups don't have the full 150 disadvantages either. Granted with experience it would be natural for some to be bought off, but the players don't have that option at start.

=After action report, where the players and GM discuss what could have been handled differently=

Players: "Let me get this straight, we have a 12 dice cap on powers. This guy we are fighting has hardened defenses with lack of weakness in excess of 70 versus our primary attack types and an equivalent amount versus our special attacks. How are we supposed to affect him?"

GM: "Use his overconfidence against him."

Players: "What!???"

GM: "Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, his attacks are 20+ dice"

Players: "--"

GM: "Well, you could have debased yourselves and appealed to his megalomania..."

Players: "That doesn't sound very heroic."

GM: "Coordinated attacks..."

Players: "Only add what gets PAST his defenses."

*granted, I don't tell players the attacks and defense of their opponents. This example was from a game where I was one of the players. The GM didn't do anything wrong, he used everything in the module as written and even toned down some of our opponents. We couldn't talk our way out of the situation. Combat was not even considered because we knew we didn't have the capability. Unusual talents (I had 3 levels of luck) didn't kick in. Our enemies hunteds didn't show, and it would have been cheesy if they had, if a villain's hunted take him out, what good are the players for? We couldn't call out for any assistance either. *

By the way, we ended up blowing up the doomsday rocket. The resulting explosion took out the villain, but killed all of us in the process. After a week or so, the villain recovered from being blown into next week as he only took stun damage not body, but we were all dead.

So the bottom line is, should villains get the points for these disadvantages if no one can effectively use them against the villain?

Opinions?

[Monolith]

We will address these things little by little.

First off, only 6 villains out of nearly 100 in CKC which have 1,000+ points (and one of those is right at 1,000 and the other is 1,069). So the number of "powerful" villains is not that many.

Now as far as DEF and Attack goes, the villain needs more d6 and PD/ED than the hero because of the fact that in many cases a single, or occasionally two, villains will have to fight an entire group of heroes. A 11d6, 5 SPD, 20 DEF villain cannot beat 4-6 11d6, 5 SPD, 20 DEF heroes unless the GM really cheats. The villain needs to be able to absorb more punishment, and do a little more damage in order to have any chance at making it an easy fight.

As far as the Psychological Limitations go, it makes sense that many villains are Overconcident. Overconfident means they take the heroes for granted and do not consider them a threat. It also means the villain is less likely to flee because he "thinks" he can still beat the heroes, not matter how badly he might be losing. There are many 350-450 point villains with Overconfidence, not just the 1,000 point villains. I do not see it as being any more of a Disad to most of the villains in CKC (nearly half the villains are built on 350 points) than I see it as being a problem for the heroes.

Just because a villain does not need all the points does not mean he shouldn't have the Psychological Limitations. Those Disadvantages tell the GM how to properly play the villain. If the GM does not play a villain as Overconfident or as a Megalomanic then the GM should just erase the Disads and replace them with Experience. I enjoy playing the villain's Disads myself.

[Rerednaw]

Originally posted by Monolith
We will address these things little by little.

First off, only 6 villains out of nearly 100 in CKC which have 1,000+ points ...the number of "powerful" villains is not that many.
...
The villain needs to be able to absorb more punishment, and do a little more damage in order to have any chance at making it an easy fight.

As far as the Psychological Limitations go, it makes sense that many villains are Overconcident...If the GM does not play a villain as Overconfident or as a Megalomanic then the GM should just erase the Disads and replace them with Experience. I enjoy playing the villain's Disads myself.

I play them as well. My point is that they just aren't disadvantages. They should be worth a reduced value or even 0 points because they do not limit the villain.

Here are some other 'disadvantages':

Distinctive Feature: Aura of Utter Evil (causes fear). - If anything this would help Presence attacks and might even be an advantage.

Psych Lim: Casual Killer. (most players would be too, if they could)

Reputation: Powerful evil supervillain(es)./Dangerous Supervillain(es) This limits them if, I mean if, they actually want to lead a normal life or aren't evil/a villain...which isn't the case for most who have this.

Psych Lim: Sadistically evil.
Psych Lim: Vengeful
Psych Lim: Contempt for normal humans/Disdain for normals/Normals are playthings.
Psych Lim: Violent

I don't know, I'd consider a 2x vulnerability to be worth something and certainly more than one of those above. I'd still assign these psych lims, reps, etc. but they would be for roleplaying purposes and since they aren't a disadvantage, I'd probably reduce or strip the points given entirely. But that is as a GM.

As a player, our group tends to scratch their heads when facing groups of villains who are more powerful than us and have no exploitable weaknesses. Not to say they are all like that, but all too many of them are.

[dbsousa]

Originally posted by Rerednaw
I...Here are some other 'disadvantages':
Distinctive Feature: Aura of Utter Evil (causes fear). - If anything this would help Presence attacks and might even be an advantage.

If you live in a world of Superheroes, "Aura of Evil" is a "kick me" sign slapped on the villain's overmuscled back. This guy couldn't go to the supermarket without being attacked by "Produce Man and Bag Boy". He can't slink away in the crowd, because the crowd parts from him in fear.

Psych Lim: Casual Killer. (most players would be too, if they could)

Tell me that this Disadvantage isn't making things hard for Saddam Hussein... Casual Killer as a psych Lim is best exploited by heroes through henchmen. Convince the henchmen that you can protect them from the villian's wrath, and he will spill the beans...

Reputation: Powerful evil supervillain(es)./Dangerous Supervillain(es) This limits them if, I mean if, they actually want to lead a normal life or aren't evil/a villain...which isn't the case for most who have this.

This does more than keep you from getting the best tables at restaurants. This forces the Villians to use henchmen to carry out any clandestine portion of his plan. And as we all know, henchmen are saps

Psych Lim: Sadistically evil.
Psych Lim: Vengeful
Psych Lim: Contempt for normal humans/Disdain for normals/Normals are playthings.
Psych Lim: Violent

I was going to start in about how the unjust person is never as happy as the just man, according to Eudaimonists, but realised I have been reading too much "Buffy TVS and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in Sunnydale".
Again, this weakness is exploitable by heroes through underlings. If you have ever read the evil overlord list, these limitations prevent the villian from implementing at least 45, 48, 72, 77, and 88

As a player, our group tends to scratch their heads when facing groups of villains who are more powerful than us and have no exploitable weaknesses. Not to say they are all like that, but all too many of them are.

I am of the opinion that the Villians who are overpowered should contain the seeds of their own demise. All of the evil overlord weaknesses should be exploitable behind the scenes, if not always face to face. Some villians are designed to be impossible to beat in a fist fight, so a conscientious GM should center games around defeating their plans, rather than arm wrestling them.

[DrSavant]

Remember what it says in ANY Champions book;
"A disadvantage which isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points. HERO 5 p 211. Disadavantages are MEANT to hurt and be taken advantage of. EXAMPLES:
A player once asked me why DNPC's (having friends) is a disadvanatge. The answer is that you take irrational actions to protect/save them. Just like "Protective of Innocents."
Reputation: Dangerous Supervillian? Consider the following;
When the heroes arrive on the sceen they will know to be careful about the villians ability. Where is the villians element of surprise??? He CAN"T be trusted, so who would work for a maniac?
A PC I knew took "Loves Wife" as a disadvantage under Champions 4, while having her as a DNPC. Now that kind of loophole seems grossly unfair. But if she says; "If you love me you'll give up being a super, it's too dangerous" (Like being a police officer) What does the guy do???
Here's one I have used before- Ask the player in question (or even yourself with some common sense) "What is the disadvantage of [such-n-such] disadvanatge??" If you go unaswered then don't allow it.
Overconfidence and Code vs Killing seem the most often abused psychological disadvantages. Until you realize what they do. An Overconfident person doesn't think he needs extra help to win (why take buddies into combat?) he stops taking simple precautions [ no one can beat me!] etc.
Code vs Killing allows your opponent to use ANYTHING he wants against you (even his 10dRKA) knowing you cannot respond in kind. How about a villian with NO RESISTANT DEFENSES. You can't use your RKA on them in ANY situation.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by DrSavant
A player once asked me why DNPC's (having friends) is a disadvanatge. The answer is that you take irrational actions to protect/save them. Just like "Protective of Innocents."

Also keep in mind that a DNPC is not necessarily a friend or relative; it's just someone who occasionally gets involved in the hero's adventures. I once ran a character who had a DNPC whom he hated. The PC was a university physics professor in his Secret ID; his DNPC was his department head, Dr. Irwin Ledbetter. Dr. Ledbetter was an incompetent and self-important man who only got his job because his uncle was the Dean of the university. He spent most of his time harassing and spying on his subordinates in order to steal their research. He always was trying to figure out what the PC was up to. My character despised Dr. Ledbetter, but had to rescue him at least twice.

Keep in mind that J. Jonah Jameson could easily be one of Spiderman's DNPC's.

[Graviton]

Originally posted by Rerednaw
I play them as well. My point is that they just aren't disadvantages. They should be worth a reduced value or even 0 points because they do not limit the villain.

Who cares? They're villains! So you change the Disad to zero and make up the points with a Villain Bonus; what difference could it possibly make?

As someone else pointed out, most of what you're talking about are Psych Lims, which perhaps define the character's personality more than they give players something to exploit in combat. If your game is just a bunch of dice-rolling and character sheet comparison, then I could see that this would be an issue. If there's actualy role-playing going on, others have already posted how these Pych Lims can be handled so they are disadvantageous to the villains.

And of course, if you're concerned that the villains don't have enough exploitable weaknesses, you can always give 'em more.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Rerednaw
I play them as well. My point is that they just aren't disadvantages. They should be worth a reduced value or even 0 points because they do not limit the villain.

I think by definition, if they aren't limiting the NPC, they are not being played.

Many limitations are not "things that rely on my adversaries to take advanateg of" but rather, "things that limit MY CHOICES."

The latter disadvantages require the PLAYER, whether its an NPC ran by the GM or a PC ran by a player, to limit his decisions to less than "the most reasonable."

A guy with megalomania should repeatedly be biting off more than he can chew and finding his masterfully constructed plans falling apart because he overextended himself since taking the world a little at the time is just not good enough.

A guy with overconfidence would likewise be making errors based on underestimating his enemies, figuring "they would not dare attack the deathstar with little fighters" or some other issue which enables the heroes to foil his plans.

Overconfidence should not be interpreted by the Gm as thinking "i am more powerful with my 30d6 bad self than a single hero with 12d6 blasts" or "i can ignore those 12d6 blasts because i have 50 defenses" as those are ACCURATE assessments showing reasonable analysis.

Overconfidence should reflect itself in other ways such as allowing the special key element to be exposed to attack because" well, obviously they would not dare to attack me there and if they did ny robot defense troops should handle them easily" when in fact thats a good choice for the PCs and the robot defense forces leave a little to be desired.

Psyche lims are disadvantages WHEN they lead you to make bad choices... and regardless of power level bad choices can be made.

[Bartman]

I think the Dr. Destroyer adventure at the end of Champions Universe illustrates how Meglomania might be a disad. I should point out before I continue that I have only played the adventure not read it, so my experience might not jell precisely with the story in the book. In the adventure DD has been gone for 10+ years. In reality he has been building up his power secretly and his plans, whatever they may be are procedeing nicely. No one has any clue that he is alive and active, so there are no annoying heroes causing him problems. However a new generation of US satalites could potentially cause him problems. DD approaches the problem with his traditional agressiveness. He takes the resources he needs and destroys the satalites despite the opposition of some heroes.

Now at this point the smart thing to do is just continue on and ignore the heroes. Mechanon is being implicated in the crimes, so there is even a convinient fall guy in case the heroes decide to follow up on the adventure. But it has been 10 looong years. No one fears DD. No one is talking about DD. No one cares about DD. Sure he is remembered and despised for his past crimes, but that is not enough. He must let these heroes no precisely who has beaten them. He wants them to be wakeing up in the middle of the night in cold sweat, wondering when and how he will strike next. The temptation is too great and DD appears on a monitor to taunt the heroes. They weren't able to stop him and they won't be able to stop him the next time. The problem is although DD's meglomania has been sated, his goals are now much more difficult to achieve. The govenments and heroes of the world have been forwarned and will be taking plenty of precautions to prevent him from succeding in his goals.

Surely that is worth a few points on his character sheet?

[DarkGreen]

Yeah, if these don't seem like disadvantages you need to think it through more:

Things that you hear from someone with Overconfidence:
"SURE, I can defuse that bomb" - no relevant skills...
"It doesn't matter if we leave evidence, the heros will never figure it out in time."
"No one in my organization would ever betray me."

Things that are problems for someone with viciousness of some sort:
Continuing to kick someone when they're down, despite better tactical targets
Torturing a henchmans loved one IN FRONT OF THE HENCHMAN, for any reason

Things that megalomaniacs do (remember, they think it's all about them):
Clearly label equipment with large friendly "Off" buttons.
Fail to "waste" time installing security measures to make sure it really is them.
Go off on a tangent and waste time because they think some unrelated event relates to them somehow.

Example: I onvce had a paranoid, overconfident villain leave the heros in a cell ("it'll hold, I designed it!") to go off and analyze a random news event that he was sure was one of his enemies engaging in a plot against him ("He's ALWAYS after me!").

Sometimes I even telegraph this to the players so they know that it isn't a gratuitous plot device but rather the villain's disads biting him on the ass. (GM theatrically looks at CKC... rolls eyes... "paranoid...hmmm".... "Big Bad Leroy stares at the news report about banana prices in Bogota and stomps off muttering about 'that bastards out to get me!' ")

-DG