Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help!

[KingHob]

It was recently decided by my gaming group that we would give FH a try, as opposed to our D&D game. I am currently working on converting my rather not normal Forgotten Realms game over into FH terms and make the world from scratch due to a complete lack of conversion between the two. I find that I have run into two major issues, the first being that I am not as good with the Hero system though I am an Experienced player, I find that I have difficulty in determining what rules apply to certain aspects of the world, the other major issue that I am still having is that the magic system is not quite what I want. The issue I am having with rules for certain aspects of the world is not my biggest hinderance at this point it's the Magic system. Here is the problem that I am facing at this point

1. The magic system needs to encompass both Clerical type magic and Sorcereous type magic.

2. Do I have the spell caster buy the spells as a power or a skill that represents the spell?

3. If I go with a Skill that represents the spell do I charge more for the skill? And if so how much more?

4. Also if I am going to have the player buy the spells as powers is it fair to also make them pay for the skill to be able to use certain schools of spells or should I just use an over all magic skill such as Divine, Sorcerous, Nature?

5. I think that last issue that I am finding I have is that in all of this, is that if I make the spell casters buy powers for thier spells do I make the other Characters that do not cast spells buy powers for thier gear and what not?

I imagine that a lot of this is trivial in a broader scope of things, but at the moment this is what is going to define a large part of my world and the way the world works.

[LordGhee]

Go to Killer shrike site where he has an amazing amount of work, many magic systems and a Dand D conversion

http://www.killershrike.com/

Lord Ghee

[KingHob]

I have read a lot of the material on Killer Shrike and it is excellent! I got huge amounts of information from his site. I still find my self with those same questions. I suppose that re-reading it won't hurt though. I found a lot of the suggestions in this thread helpful, and was just hoping to get a little more feedback. < OFF to re-read Killershrike. >

[Killer Shrike]

I have read a lot of the material on Killer Shrike and it is excellent! I got huge amounts of information from his site. I still find my self with those same questions. I suppose that re-reading it won't hurt though. I found a lot of the suggestions in this thread helpful, and was just hoping to get a little more feedback. < OFF to re-read Killershrike. >

Thanx for the kind words.

As far as your individual questions Hob, it really depends on what scope you want to run the game at and what power level you want in game.

Ive been able to run many magic systems in parrallel, including variations on VPP's, MP's, EC's, Skill based, and buy-a-power magic systems. All had pros and cons but were largely balanced. Mundane Equipment cost money, special Equipment cost points, same with abilities -- normal abilities handled with Skills and Talents, exotic abilities built with Powers limited in such a fashion to indicate their SFX as highly-specialized "Skills".

IMO the most important thing about Magic Systems is the level of control placed on them. I was in the process of rewriting the Magic System docs on my site when I got derailed into other interests. Eventually Ill get back to it, but in the meantime the bulk of the new spin is up in rough form, but not directly linked to. Here is a direct link into the primary doc:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...rs/Magic.shtml

A lot of the meat is in "click downs", so make sure to click on the various exposition links in the doc. As I said this is a rough draft and will see a lot of alteration before finished, but the core ideas will remain.

[Briguy123]

The issue I am having with rules for certain aspects of the world is not my biggest hinderance at this point it's the Magic system. Here is the problem that I am facing at this point

1. The magic system needs to encompass both Clerical type magic and Sorcereous type magic.

2. Do I have the spell caster buy the spells as a power or a skill that represents the spell?

3. If I go with a Skill that represents the spell do I charge more for the skill? And if so how much more?

4. Also if I am going to have the player buy the spells as powers is it fair to also make them pay for the skill to be able to use certain schools of spells or should I just use an over all magic skill such as Divine, Sorcerous, Nature?

5. I think that last issue that I am finding I have is that in all of this, is that if I make the spell casters buy powers for thier spells do I make the other Characters that do not cast spells buy powers for thier gear and what not?

I've been running a low fantasy campaign where each spell is bought as a knowledge skill. For 2 points you get an 11 or less roll to successfully cast the spell and for 3 poits you get to base it on your ego roll. Additional bonuses cost 1 point per +1 to the roll. However, I apply a diffulty modifier to each skill based on the real cost of the spell. I divide the real cost by 3 and apply that number as a negative modifier to the skill roll.

For example, Master Theramin is a member of the College Arcane in my campaign city who specializes in conjuration. One of his favoite spells is "Theramin's Angry Swarm!" This spell summons hundreds of stinging and biting insects that swarm around the target inflicting damage to the target and anyone immediately adjacent. Unfortunately, if Theramin fails his skill roll by three or more, the swarm attacks Theramin instead. The swarm is not effective in strong winds, it can't affect non-living opponents (i.e. constructs or animated skeletons), nor can it penetrate forcefields.

Master Theramin's Angry Swarm!
1 pip RKA.

Advantages; NND (+1), Does body (+1), AE 1 hex (+1/2), Continuous (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1), Usable as an attack (+1).

Disadvantages; RSR (-1/2), Incantatinons (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Side effects (-1/4), Full phase action (-1/2).

Active cost: 30 Real cost: 10 Difficulty modifier: -3

Theramin has spent 7 points on this spell thus he gets his ego roll +4 (17 or less). However, the difficulty modifier of -3 is applied giving a final result of 14 or less. It takes a bit of prep time to build spells, but I and my players are satisfied with the results.

IMO the benefits of this type of magic system are threefold.

1. Just as fighters don't pay character points for their equipment, magic users don't have to purchase the powers they wield, only the skills needed to wield those powers.
2. The more powerful a spell, the harder it is to cast.
3. Proficiency with a given spell can be increased independently of other spells, because each spell has its own skill roll. This allows one model the fact that spell casters may have certain favorite spells that they practice frequently and thus are more proficient with them.

[Black Rose]

I've been running a low fantasy campaign where each spell is bought as a knowledge skill. For 2 points you get an 11 or less roll to successfully cast the spell and for 3 poits you get to base it on your ego roll. Additional bonuses cost 1 point per +1 to the roll. However, I apply a diffulty modifier to each skill based on the real cost of the spell. I divide the real cost by 3 and apply that number as a negative modifier to the skill roll.

~~snipped example~~

IMO the benefits of this type of magic system are threefold.

1. Just as fighters don't pay character points for their equipment, magic users don't have to purchase the powers they wield, only the skills needed to wield those powers.
2. The more powerful a spell, the harder it is to cast.
3. Proficiency with a given spell can be increased independently of other spells, because each spell has its own skill roll. This allows one model the fact that spell casters may have certain favorite spells that they practice frequently and thus are more proficient with them.

Do you feel that allowing Skill Levels would be too cheese-filled for this system?

[Markdoc]

>>Originally Posted by Briguy123
I've been running a low fantasy campaign where each spell is bought as a knowledge skill. For 2 points you get an 11 or less roll to successfully cast the spell and for 3 poits you get to base it on your ego roll. Additional bonuses cost 1 point per +1 to the roll. However, I apply a diffulty modifier to each skill based on the real cost of the spell. I divide the real cost by 3 and apply that number as a negative modifier to the skill roll.<<

We tried something very similar to this. If it works for you, then great. But what we found was that EVERY character was a magic user, which wasn't what we wanted.

If you are thief, why buy stealth and climbing for 6 points when you could buy invisibility and clinging for 6 points? If you are a healer, why buy KS:healing for 3 points when you could buy a good healing spell for the same cost? If you are a fighter, 3 points spent on a forcefield spell beat the hell out of 3 points spent on a CSL, while a 3 points for a 2d6 RKA, no range mod was a hell of a lot better than a bow and arrow with some points spent on CSLs. Regeneration was good for everyone and eliminated any problems with wounds from combat - either you died outright, or a few minutes later you were fine. The extra END for powers and the casting limitation versus skills simply wasn't enough to compensate for the fact that many spells offered huge advantages if you didn't have to pay for them. It wasn't huge mega-killer spells that were the problem (the minus incurred took care of that) - but combat spells in the 10-15 AP range were really useful, and easy to cast, while non-combat spells in the 30 AP range, could be incredibly useful.

cheers, Mark

[Briguy123]

Do you feel that allowing Skill Levels would be too cheese-filled for this system?

I limit the amount of skill levels that a character can purchase, but they do add some flavor. For instance, if a player wanted his character to specialize in fire magic he might buy a 5 pt. skill level that adds +1 to the skill roll for any fire spell. In fact mages that belong to specialized guilds get a bonus skill level or two (depending on their ranks within the guild) for casting spells taught by that guild. This is included in the cp cost of guild membership. I wouldn't allow a character to have more than two such levels though.

[Briguy123]

We tried something very similar to this. If it works for you, then great. But what we found was that EVERY character was a magic user, which wasn't what we wanted.

If you are thief, why buy stealth and climbing for 6 points when you could buy invisibility and clinging for 6 points? If you are a healer, why buy KS:healing for 3 points when you could buy a good healing spell for the same cost? If you are a fighter, 3 points spent on a forcefield spell beat the hell out of 3 points spent on a CSL, while a 3 points for a 2d6 RKA, no range mod was a hell of a lot better than a bow and arrow with some points spent on CSLs. Regeneration was good for everyone and eliminated any problems with wounds from combat - either you died outright, or a few minutes later you were fine. The extra END for powers and the casting limitation versus skills simply wasn't enough to compensate for the fact that many spells offered huge advantages if you didn't have to pay for them. It wasn't huge mega-killer spells that were the problem (the minus incurred took care of that) - but combat spells in the 10-15 AP range were really useful, and easy to cast, while non-combat spells in the 30 AP range, could be incredibly useful.

cheers, Mark

Let's use the invisibility spell as an example.

Invisibility
Invisibility vs all sight.
Disadvantages: RSR (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Conc. 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Full phase act. (-1/2), Side effect (-1/4).

Active cost: 20 Real cost: 8 Difficulty modifier: -3

Theramin with an ego of 18 decides to learn this spell but spends only three character points on it. He has a 13 or less roll but he must apply the difficulty modifier of -3 to it. If he only spends 3 points, he can only cast the spell successfully on a roll of 10 or less (less than 50% of the time). On top of that, there is the side effect that comes into play if he fails his roll by three or more. Rolling thirteen or greater is not common but happens enough to be a serious inconvenience if you are facing a dangerous side effect. To get his skill roll up to a 13 or less for this spell, Theramin mist spend 6 points which is double what it costs to buy stealth. So far, these restrictions seem to keep play balanced between spell casters and non-spell casters. YMMV

[Markdoc]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply the system was unplayable, merely that it didn't give the effect we wanted. If you like it, more power to you!

To take your own example, Theramin could take an extra 12 seconds and have a 13- roll, with a 16- chance of avoiding side effects, for 3 points, which is pretty good odds. It's not something that you do in combat, which was something I mentioned: a lot of the spells that were really useful were out of combat or precombat spells. But in a non-combat situation, 12 seconds is nothing. Given a minute to prepare, warriors would load up on extra strength, forcefield, and so on - but they still tended to rely on weapons and armour. As for traditional old-guy-in-a-robe style mages, we didn't have any. Those we started the game with either retired or rapidly acquired weapon familiarities and armour. and we had to outlaw spells with the advantage "trigger" to stop people racking up powerful spells that they could later call on. (as an aside, that's a good way to do "Vancian" magic)

If you want a system where everyone has "charms" - the blacksmith can melt iron with a few gestures and a chant, the local healer can heal broken limbs as well as charming warts off and so on, then this system will give you that.

Problems or lack thereof might also reflect the group you game with - in ours, the most active players were also GMs. We took turns at running and often had two games going at the same time, so the possibilities of the system were immediately apparent to all!

cheers, Mark

[Briguy123]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply the system was unplayable, merely that it didn't give the effect we wanted. If you like it, more power to you!

To take your own example, Theramin could take an extra 12 seconds and have a 13- roll, with a 16- chance of avoiding side effects, for 3 points, which is pretty good odds. It's not something that you do in combat, which was something I mentioned: a lot of the spells that were really useful were out of combat or precombat spells. But in a non-combat situation, 12 seconds is nothing. Given a minute to prepare, warriors would load up on extra strength, forcefield, and so on - but they still tended to rely on weapons and armour. As for traditional old-guy-in-a-robe style mages, we didn't have any. Those we started the game with either retired or rapidly acquired weapon familiarities and armour. and we had to outlaw spells with the advantage "trigger" to stop people racking up powerful spells that they could later call on. (as an aside, that's a good way to do "Vancian" magic)

If you want a system where everyone has "charms" - the blacksmith can melt iron with a few gestures and a chant, the local healer can heal broken limbs as well as charming warts off and so on, then this system will give you that.

Problems or lack thereof might also reflect the group you game with - in ours, the most active players were also GMs. We took turns at running and often had two games going at the same time, so the possibilities of the system were immediately apparent to all!

cheers, Mark

One way I limit things is buy not allowing players to design their own spells. They are allowed to pick from a limited list of spells at the beginning of the campaign and have to find, steal, or buy information in order to learn new spells. That is why mage guilds are so popular. The guilds tend to accumulate spell lore which is made available to members. Basic membership in a guild is a 3 point perk with each step up the guilds heirarchy costing 5 points. I have one player who has tried to break the system, but I am very strict about what I do and don't allow. Granted, this system requires more work on the GM's part, but so far it has worked well for my campaign.